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"I think Gary makes a lot of good points. What does one want from their monitors? I remember seeing a rep demoing Event 20/20s and saying "And this was mixed through these monitors", trying to impress everyone. The speakers sounded very good, but all mixes should sound their best on the monitors they were mixed through." What, exactly, does that mean? "all mixes should sound their best on the monitors they were mixed through" The speakers 'sounded very good', because they are very good speakers. Mixes done on them translate. They are not Genelecs, or Meyers, but they translate. How much do you want to spend on a song that probably shouldn't have been recorded in the first place?  The old computer axiom, GIGO. Garbage In, Garbage Out. Remember, the monitors are only one part of the chain. You can have great monitors, but if you can't mix worth a dime, then no matter what speakers you put them through, they're going to sound like crap. When I first read "And this was mixed through these monitors", trying to impress everyone. The speakers sounded very good, but all mixes should sound their best on the monitors they were mixed through." I got the impression that the mix wasn't very impressive. So, poor sounds, poor mixing or recording, best monitors in the world still equates to a poor mix and a poor song. A GOOD mix engineer can do wonders for a mediocre song, a mediocre mix engineer can destroy the most well recorded tracks. Gary
I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
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“A GOOD mix engineer can do wonders for a mediocre song, a mediocre mix engineer can destroy the most well recorded tracks.” Actually, even a great mix engineer can't do anything for a mediocre song. It will just be a mediocre song that sounds better. A great song can overcome the shortcomings of a mediocre mix engineer. Plenty of examples of this phenomenon. “Remember, the monitors are only one part of the chain. You can have great monitors, but if you can't mix worth a dime, then no matter what speakers you put them through, they're going to sound like crap.” Thanks for the tip. I've only been recording for 35 years, so I appreciate the benefit of your expertise.
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Monitors for studio use are supposed to be flat but any listen side by side will tell you that they are not.
Here's the interesting thing. Critter called the JBL's "tin cans" .... compared to the others. We tend to like the music to fit what we think it should sound like. In many cases that equates to biased frequencies and not anywhere close to flat.
Perhaps the JBL's were in fact telling the "truth" in that room and with that particular music. Flat to most people isn't appealing. But as recording and mix engineers, you want FLAT.
I read somewhere that a certain major studio and engineer had a single NS-10 on the shelf that he used in the mixing stages. It sounded like crap since the mix was also in mono. But the goal was to hear the truth of the mix not for ear candy in the studio. His recordings and mixes were stellar.
Too often, a huge beginner mistake is to choose studio speakers that sound good (ear candy) and then the person wonders why their mixes never translate to the other systems very well.... car, stereo, etc....
Mixing on biased speakers gives you a disadvantage from the start. Oh sure, the mix sounds really sweet in the studio... YOUR STUDIO, but every other place the bass is too strong or too weak, the mids are too prominent or not enough, the highs will shatter glass or sound like they are under a wet blanket....and it comes from ear candy monitoring.
There is a solution, and probably the best is to learn the speakers you are using. ARC is also a handy fix to one degree or another. Mix at lower volumes as well.
My advice on choosing monitors is to get some that you DO like the sound from, and then learn their strengths and weaknesses. That's an essential part to getting a good mix on any monitors. I also suggest using a sub especially if you have 5" cones. A sub will help 8" cones as well. Again, learn the system with the sub and get it set up properly and balanced. There's nothing wrong with ear candy in the studio as long as the folks listing on the other systems can also get that "ear candy" experience.
Pick up a copy of Mike Seniors Mixing Secrets for the small studio. The first several chapters are specifically on speakers and sound in the small studio because, lacking good speakers, and/or not understanding the ones you currently have.... NOTHING ELSE MATTERS.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 07/06/14 06:36 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Too often, a huge beginner mistake is to choose studio speakers that sound good (ear candy) and then the person wonders why their mixes never translate to the other systems very well.... car, stereo, etc....
There is a solution, and probably the best is to learn the speakers you are using. Mix at lower volumes as well. IMO....see above. I downsized a couple years ago for several reasons. I used my trusty JBL4410's for 19 years and they are still stellar monitors....just didn't fit my 'downsizing' goal anymore. Given the total subjectivity (previously mentioned) of monitor choice I was back at the crossroads of what to choose now? I went to GC which was only a mile away. In the store I listened to the Events, Behringer Truths, one other I can't recall now and the KRK Rockit 8's. With confidence, to my ears, I went with the KRK's 8's (249 each) which had a noticeably more even sound over the spectrum and a smoother bass response (bass - front ported). I wanted the 8's to push more air with less effort and feel there is a better presence of the music compared to using 5.5's. I put on my own CD and the translation was perfect....for my ears, in my recording environ. As also touched on previously, garbage in-garbage out. I'm not one to leave a track as is thinking I'll fix it in the mix. I do the track over. Carry on...
Last edited by chulaivet1966; 07/06/14 10:40 AM.
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Okay, I've been doing a lot of overtime on this, Sweetwater is not going to carry the Focal alpha 50, that was my choice. That !@#%^&& me off, but what can you do. Now back to the selection, KRK rokit 5, Presonus Eris 5, Rokit 6, or Yamaha MSP 5. Take a poll and give the thumbs up to one of these. Thanks again for the input........
Critter
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freq specs and amp power tell me the rockits (maybe the Yamahas if there were some other compelling reason), but I ain't heard these side by side.
Chances of your poll being accurate is off. We'd need to hear them all. Nevertheless I figured I'd point that one detail out. Presonus being 70Hz and above would be disconcerting to me. I'd assume I needed a sub. Otherwise I may be missing a lot.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Spent a day......and came up with a must I say it, more money choice, that would be the Event 20/20 BAS, and I think that would be a good choice. Sweetwater said they will have the Focal Alpha 50, price point between the two is the same, $299.99 per speaker each, 5 inch woofer in the Focal and 7.1 in the Event. Any thoughts on those two? Thanks
Critter
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Side by side with all the other big brand names..... I chose the Mackie MR-5 speakers. $300 for the pair at the time.
To my ears, in that room, in an A/B comparison, they sounded the best.
I have since added a nice sub to the studio line up.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Spent a day......and came up with a must I say it, more money choice, that would be the Event 20/20 BAS, and I think that would be a good choice. Sweetwater said they will have the Focal Alpha 50, price point between the two is the same, $299.99 per speaker each, 5 inch woofer in the Focal and 7.1 in the Event. Any thoughts on those two? Thanks Between those two - no contest. As I mentioned before, I have the original passive version of the Events. They are incredible near fields.
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I found a website called sonicsense.com which has side by side tests of speakers, if you are interested check it out. They have on the website a way you can also download the tests from soundcloud.com at I think is 44.1 16 and or 24 bits and you can test out the results on your own equipment. I'm sure some of you know of this site but just thought I would throw it out there.
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The fact of the matter is that people are using every single brand and model of studio speaker ever made with success.
Of course we all like to think that we have the ultimate best speaker ever made when we decide to lay down our hard earned cash, but that's simply not true.
Every speaker, from the cheapest bottom of the line to the most costly top of the line will have strengths and weaknesses and unless you know and understand those aspects, the quality of the speakers won't matter much to your mixing.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again..... pick a brand and model and learn them. Don't fret that you don't have the best.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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pick a brand and model and learn them. Don't fret that you don't have the best. IMO....see above....end of story. 
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You might also consider looking at the Focusrite VRM (Virtual Reference Monitor), which can simulate a number of monitors. I appears as out of stock my most retailer (not sure why, I've emailed Sweetwater to find out), but I see that it's still available at the Best Buy website for half price. Edit: Sweetwater verified Focusrite VRM is discontinued.  I've got it, and it makes it easy to "try out" the mix on a wide variety of speaker systems. Sadly "car" isn't one of them. In particular, it lets me see how badly a mix that sounds good on one set of speakers may sound on another set.
Last edited by dcuny; 07/09/14 12:48 PM. Reason: Got a response from Sweetwater
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You might also consider looking at the Focusrite VRM (Virtual Reference Monitor), which can simulate a number of monitors. I appears as out of stock my most retailer (not sure why, I've emailed Sweetwater to find out), but I see that it's still available at the Best Buy website for half price. Edit: Sweetwater verified Focusrite VRM is discontinued. I've got it, and it makes it easy to "try out" the mix on a wide variety of speaker systems. Sadly "car" isn't one of them. In particular, it lets me see how badly a mix that sounds good on one set of speakers may sound on another set. Here's a possible reason I believe that this product died: If I'm not mistaken, it's a USB audio device. If you are using a USB audio/midi interface, most DAW software can only play nice with one USB audio device at a time. This capability came in the Saffire Pro 24 DSP device as well. Just found a Sound on Sound review confirming some suspicion of USB havoc, and a rather complicated workaround: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr11/articles/focusrite-vrmbox.htmDave, how do you use your VRM box?
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Dave, how do you use your VRM box? I used it to test my mix in Reaper via headphones. I haven't touched the S/PDIF port at all. I was getting a mix I thought was good, and then taking a CD out to my car and having it sound terrible. The VRM Box helped cut that cycle down. I still wish it had a "car stereo" simulator - that's the one simulated space that seems a no-brainer.
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"a "car stereo" simulator - that's the one simulated space that seems a no-brainer"
I would disagree with that. Once you start simulating a car it becomes *which* car dilemma (and exponential variables).
Honda with Alpine? Cruze with stock? LE or EX model?? (could be different radio and speaker specs)
I wouldn't want to touch it. Not only are you trying to simulate speaker response you'd be trying to emulate environment. And making an 8X8 room sound like a car interior would be much different than a 12X16 room, and much different than headphones .. nope, not so easy as it sounds at first.
Just my thoughts/opinion.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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.. nope, not so easy as it sounds at first. Sorry, I meant no brainer as an option, not as in "easy to do." Hopefully having run through a series of different speakers, the mix should translate well. If you were simulating a car, you'd also need "freeway noise", "busted muffler" and "arguing children in the back" options as well. After I got an email from Sweetwater saying the VRM Box was discontinued, I got an email from Focusrite technical support saying that it not discontinued. Now I'm really confused... 
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After I got an email from Sweetwater saying the VRM Box was discontinued, I got an email from Focusrite technical support saying that it not discontinued. Now I'm really confused... Dave, This company, Sonic Sense, in Denver buys direct from Focusrite's US distributor. My Scarlett 18i8 that I bought through them came directly to my house from the distributor. Sometimes they sell stuff used that they take back on return. If you want another, give them a call. http://www.sonicsense.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=vrmNote, that the VRM box does not show up in their listing. It is current on Focusrite's site. No other US based online retailers have it available from what I can tell. Here's an alternative way to simulate different speaker playback over headphones: http://www.toneboosters.com/tb-isone/ The guy who programmed this plugin is a DSP genius - you likely use some of his code daily. When I used to do binaural recording and analysis for General Motors, I became acquainted with Jeroen's work and we e-mailed back and forth a few times about the fact that many people perceive binaural recordings as louder than mono recordings, even when the SPL vs. time is the same between the two recordings.
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I think I'm good for now.
I just thought it was odd for the manufacturer and dealers to be at odds. Sweetwater got back to me, confirming that it's discontinued.
It's just bizarre. I'd guess they don't want to announce that it's discontinued so they'll be able to sell off the backstock.
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When you finally learn how to mix properly, the mixes you produce will sound reasonably good on every system they are played on. It's the amateurs who mix to their "studio" speakers and then play it in a car and are disappointed by the unbalanced mix.
Do you seriously think the big mixing studios have the time to model every single environment where a song might be played? Absolutely not. They know what they are doing and they use one set of monitors consistently. Some of them may take the time to "check the mix" (probably spot checking) on a mono rig. I'm sure some do, but most of them know what they're doing and don't need to, or have the time, to check their work on a dozen different speakers or environments.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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