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Okay, I have several new data:
1. There was no fluorescent light in my room. The closest CFL is two rooms away.
2. There are no dimmers or "choppers" in the house.
3. My DAW froze briefly yesterday. During that time the static noise disappeared. Does this point to the VPU? (I hope not, I paid $200 for that sucker.)
4. And the biggie: I put in a 3/2-prong adapter, and Lo! both the hum and static have become barely audible. As in, I have to put my ear up to the drivers to hear it. The noise coming from the liquid-cooled PC is louder. The hum and static are barely audible from my normal listening position.
Onward. 1. & 2. - good. 3. - Probably not the CPU directly, but there may be poor onboard PSU filtering. (there are CPU power supply regulators on motherboards these days - have been for a long time) It's also possible the 5V filtering for the USB supply is not great. 4. - Excellent - now we know there is a definite correlation with an earth loop somewhere. Is there anywhere in the signal chain where an earth can be lifted that will always be part of the overall signal chain? Perhaps you can describe where connections go from PC to speakers? Also, given that the hum is only reduced and not completely eliminated there is still some tracing to do. That said, removing a signal earth somewhere rather than the PC's mains earth MAY do it.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya  --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Lawrie,
1. I should have spelled #3 above. I meant the video card (VPU), not CPU. IT's a Zotac 560 2-Gb card.
2. Signal goes from back panel USB port—which MAY be USB 3, I don't know how to tell—to PreSonus AudioBox (PAB) USB. Signal also comes from Behringer 16 x 2 mixer to PAB preamps. Signal comes out of the PAB to (a) Behry 4-ch. headphone amp, and (b) JBL PSW-D110 sub ins, and out of Xover to (c) Behry TRUTH B2031A active two-way monitors.
Note: It ain't the speaks. There is abso no noise when the PAB us D/Ced from USB. The mixer has also been positively ruled out as a source.
3. I have no idea how to lift ground in the signal chain. Please say more.
R.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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The USB 3.0 ports on my machines all have a blue strip inside the connector. USB 2 has a white strip.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Lawrie,
1. I should have spelled #3 above. I meant the video card (VPU), not CPU. IT's a Zotac 560 2-Gb card.
Ahh, I would have called that the GPU (Graphics Processor Unit).
2. Signal goes from back panel USB port—which MAY be USB 3, I don't know how to tell—to PreSonus AudioBox (PAB) USB. Signal also comes from Behringer 16 x 2 mixer to PAB preamps. Signal comes out of the PAB to (a) Behry 4-ch. headphone amp, and (b) JBL PSW-D110 sub ins, and out of Xover to (c) Behry TRUTH B2031A active two-way monitors.
Note: It ain't the speaks. There is abso no noise when the PAB us D/Ced from USB. The mixer has also been positively ruled out as a source.
OK, so the PAB is like the centre point of a star. Grounded PC to USB I/O port on PAB, Possible double insulated mixer to audio I/P on PAB, OUTPUT of PAB to headphone, OUTPUT of PAB to SUB and thence Speaker system via X'over...
3. I have no idea how to lift ground in the signal chain. Please say more.
Hmm, if I am correct and the mixer is double insulated then I would open the ground wire in the audio cable between the PAB and the Sub. If the mixer is NOT double insulated, AND the previous doesn't do the trick, then I would open the ground in the AUDIO cable(s) between the mixer and the PAB. To open the ground: Balanced cables - cut the shield wire at ONE END ONLY UnBalanced cables - cut the -ve (normally shield wire, though the sheld and the -ve may be bonded together - possibly only at one end, in which case cut both) at ONE END ONLY. As I am skilled with making cables I would just "do it" but if you're not then I would test with cables that are (old) on their way out, or which I have spares for, so as to not be too worried about the damaged/lost cables if it didn't work. Remember, you are still testing at this stage.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Lawrie,
1. I should have spelled #3 above. I meant the video card (VPU), not CPU. IT's a Zotac 560 2-Gb card.
Ahh, I would have called that the GPU (Graphics Processor Unit).
2. Signal goes from back panel USB port—which MAY be USB 3, I don't know how to tell—to PreSonus AudioBox (PAB) USB. Signal also comes from Behringer 16 x 2 mixer to PAB preamps. Signal comes out of the PAB to (a) Behry 4-ch. headphone amp, and (b) JBL PSW-D110 sub ins, and out of Xover to (c) Behry TRUTH B2031A active two-way monitors.
Note: It ain't the speaks. There is abso no noise when the PAB us D/Ced from USB. The mixer has also been positively ruled out as a source.
OK, so the PAB is like the centre point of a star. Grounded PC to USB I/O port on PAB, Possible double insulated mixer to audio I/P on PAB, OUTPUT of PAB to headphone, OUTPUT of PAB to SUB and thence Speaker system via X'over...
3. I have no idea how to lift ground in the signal chain. Please say more.
Hmm, if I am correct and the mixer is double insulated then I would open the ground wire in the audio cable between the PAB and the Sub. If the mixer is NOT double insulated, AND the previous doesn't do the trick, then I would open the ground in the AUDIO cable(s) between the mixer and the PAB. To open the ground: Balanced cables - cut the shield wire at ONE END ONLY UnBalanced cables - cut the -ve (normally shield wire, though the sheld and the -ve may be bonded together - possibly only at one end, in which case cut both) at ONE END ONLY. As I am skilled with making cables I would just "do it" but if you're not then I would test with cables that are (old) on their way out, or which I have spares for, so as to not be too worried about the damaged/lost cables if it didn't work. Remember, you are still testing at this stage. Lawrie, you're absolutely right about the GPU. Minor brain fart there. Yes, the AudioBox (PAB) is pretty much the heart of the system. Hadn't thought of it that way until you pointed it out. I'm pretty good at making and repairing cables. I just bought some heavy-duty molded Hosa brand cables to go from the PAB to the sub and thence to the satellites (FL and FR). I'd really rather not hack into those. Question is, how do I tell whether the mixer is double insulated? It's a Behringer Eurorack MX 2004A. The mains cord has two prongs, but goes thru an external transformer to a cord with a multipin connector into the mixer. I have no problem mucking about with the short (<1 m) audio cables with what look like Switchcraft 1/4" plugs running from the mixer to the PAB. Final question for this session is, how risky is it to leave the PC plugged into the 3/2 adapter? I'm sure enjoying the noise-free thing here. R.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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It is more risky for the PC than for you.
Do you sometimes experience the little electric shock when you touch something after walking on a carpet? This little lightning might cause some parts in your PC to drift into the eternal sleep.
Desktop; i7-2600k, 8 GB mem., Win 10 Pro, BIAB 2017; RB 2017 - latest build
Laptop: i5-2410M, 4 GB mem, Win 10 Pro, BIAB 2017; RB 2017 - latest build
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Question is, how do I tell whether the mixer is double insulated? It's a Behringer Eurorack MX 2004A. The mains cord has two prongs, but goes thru an external transformer to a cord with a multipin connector into the mixer. I have no problem mucking about with the short (<1 m) audio cables with what look like Switchcraft 1/4" plugs running from the mixer to the PAB.
Final question for this session is, how risky is it to leave the PC plugged into the 3/2 adapter? I'm sure enjoying the noise-free thing here.
Hi Ryszard, you've answered it yourself: 2 pin plug (from the manufacturer) = no earth = double insulated. How risky..? How long is a piece of string? If nothing fails there is no risk at all, but I would in no way advise you to do that. I have, however, had a thought: If you have, or acquire, a powered USB hub, you could connect the PC to the hub, and the hub to the PAB. With any luck the earth from the PC would be interrupted at the hub and there would still be no noise, but the PC would still have its earth connected. Problem is I don't know if the earth would, in fact, be broken at the hub... OK, just checked on I have and the earth is extended so power can be extended from the hub  However, you mentioned being skilled at making cables. Does that mean you'd be happy to have a hack at a cheap USB hub? If so, open it up, identify where the USB power comes in, make sure it isn't needed for the hub to be activated (external power should take care of that (I hope)) and break the tracks or whatever. Make sure you DON'T break them where power from the wall wart feeds USB devices plugged into the hub.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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I do have a USB hub which is presently in use. Before performing experimental surgery on it, I'd like to revisit the idea of a power conditioner/isolator. What exactly do you recommend, and how likely is it to solve the problem? Would I need one for my entire outlet strip, or just for the PC?
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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I do have a USB hub which is presently in use. Before performing experimental surgery on it, I'd like to revisit the idea of a power conditioner/isolator. What exactly do you recommend, and how likely is it to solve the problem? Would I need one for my entire outlet strip, or just for the PC? Hi Ryszard, given you've proven the problem into the earth connection, a power conditioner would do nothing as the ground would be extended through the conditioned untreated. I would acquire a cheep USB hub to experiment on rather than use the live one...
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Lawrie: I'm sorry; I confused the issue by mentioning power conditioners. I should have limited the question to an "isolator," which was brought up at some point during this multilogue. My system is somewhat finicky about USB port placement, so I'd rather explore other solutions than equipment modification.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Fair enough Ryszard, but I have nothing left to offer.
Should the unlikely happen and a fault occur in the PC that requires the safety ground to be in place, then the current carrying capacity of the USB and audio cables will be insufficient and they'll likely burn out, assuming you choose to continue with the 3 to 2 prong adapter.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Alright, Lawrie, a fair enough answer from you too. In that case, please tell me exactly where in the USB hub to interrupt the circuit. I believe I can do it if the directions are specific enough. And thank you for staying with me throughout this lengthy course.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Hi Ryszard, hard to say without seeing the circuit... The connection from the PC to the hub will most likely be a "B" connector - looks like a little house when seen end on.  You will need to follow the GND printed circuit track to a point where it can be broken BEFORE it joins the feed to the outputs of the hub. One thing to be sure of is you must break the track BEFORE the feed from the wall wart too. That's about the best I can describe without the actual hub in my hands. I do stress, try this with cheepie hub first, it is still my best guess, not a guaranteed fix.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Ryzard, I told ya. Or actually Mac told me and I told you. Don't doubt the Macster.
Second thing just follow Mac's second piece of advice to me and make sure there are other grounded devices plugged into your power strip along with the PC. As long as that's the case and the PC is never plugged into that strip by itself you're good to go using the two prong adapter. Mac said this setup is UL approved, what more do you need?
Keep it simple and get back to work man. You already said things are nice and quiet.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Thank you, Bob. I'm still researching, but what you say is reassuring. There are several other three-prong devices plugged in.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Richard: I am no expert in these things, but I just noticed this MF "No-Brainer." Reading the comments, it may be just what you need, and for #30, you can probably afford to take a flyer, and sell on eBay if it doesn't do anything. http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/musicians-gear-power-conditioner
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Thanks, Brad. That looks quite interesting and is certainly a great value.
Richard
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Except that's not solving the problem we're talking about here. Apples and oranges.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Ryzard, I told ya. Or actually Mac told me and I told you. Don't doubt the Macster.
Second thing just follow Mac's second piece of advice to me and make sure there are other grounded devices plugged into your power strip along with the PC. As long as that's the case and the PC is never plugged into that strip by itself you're good to go using the two prong adapter. Mac said this setup is UL approved, what more do you need?
Keep it simple and get back to work man. You already said things are nice and quiet.
Bob Hi Bob, With respect to both you and Mac (who I suspect would agree with me in this instance), I still maintain that the current carrying capacity of the USB cable FROM the PC to the next device(s) is INSUFFICIENT to provide the protection that should be expected. If the USB ground wire and latter PC board tracks were able to carry 30 or 40 Amps for a few seconds then I'd be happy with that, but that USB cable ground wire would be lucky to carry 5A for any length of time, and the PC board tracks even less I would guess (without having seen them of course). I know people will continue to think I'm being over-conservative, but I have a very healthy respect for what electricity can do to the human body. It takes a mere 7mA (that's milli-Amps) across the heart muscle to initiate fibrillation. You can easily do that with a 9V battery if you can get it close enough to the heart! Of course, you'd need to have a hole in your chest
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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No, that's not what Mac said. Here is what he said:
"If you use the Grounded Surge strip and plug everything else into it along with the computer through the two prong adaptor, there will still be a path to AC Ground for the computer, it will just be going through the other stuff that's hooked up, one path instead of two.
This is legal in the US electrical code, that's why the adaptors are still UL listed, among other things."
The USB cable has nothing to do with this. Without rereading this whole thread, I believe you brought that up merely as one possibility for solving this. It's now been shown it's not necessary to worry about the USB cable, the other stuff plugged into the power strip is covering the AC ground.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
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User Video: Band-in-a-Box® + ChatGPT = Impressed the BOSS!
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