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And Eddie, I'm still there, haven't left yet yelling for "SKYNYRD"!
 Steve BIAB/RB 2022, Pro Tools 2020, Korg N5, JBL LSR 4328 Powered Monitors, AKG/Shure Mics.
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As a song writer home recording enthusiast, I set out with 2 similar but different goals.
1. Get the music coming out of my studio up to the quality needed to stand side by side with professionally recorded and engineered studio quality stuff.....in other words, produce Broadcast Ready material. <edited>
2. Write better songs. <edited> You may be trying to become both a sprinter and a marathon runner here. It is rare that the songwriter or performer is also the whiz kid engineer. Every good songwriter I know can turn out so/so production. Every good producer/engineer I know writes acceptably well, but not "Grammy Winning Song Of The Year" level. You may find it a far less frustrating path with much more attainable goals to either pick one or the other, or settle for 50/50. Then...... just a bit further on, you mention all the things you do and are good at..... working with wood, fixing cars, computers and some other things too IIRC..... No Ed, these skills are not mutually exclusive and I can point you to a bunch of folks who excel at both.... drop in to the Cakewalk Songs Forum and have a listen to some of the music written and recorded there. Heck, for that matter, visit my web site, have a listen and then you decide. Listen to the PG Showcase songs. There's lots of folks who are good at both skill sets. My goal is not to be a Grammy award winning recording engineer. It is simply to produce radio ready music both from the production POV as well as the writing POV. It's totally possible to do both. I know many folks who do. I'm still learning and improving my skills and chops on both. To Dan's comments...... that big post was a fun read.....and accurate in some ways. I've played with a few folks who have forgotten more about music than I will probably ever know. And all the major music hubs are filled with such folks....all playing and singing on streets for tips, and on demo sessions for a few dollars an hour to pay the rent in a dump of an apartment they share with a few other similar situation starving musicians. Years back, you could get Trisha Yearwood and Garth Brooks to sing on your demo for $20/hr..... and the situation in Nashville is very similar today. Just go set in Tootsies and grab a beer and listen to the guy playing on the 5 foot square stage beside the door for tips. I swear most of you have no idea of what I'm talking about here but I'll keep trying to get through. The top music schools in the world are cranking out unbelievable monster players by the thousands. Add them all up for the last 30 years since the schools started expanding their music departments and there's tens of thousands of musical killers walking around who would make you burn that guitar and take up knitting.
Treat it like the fun hobby it is and forget about doing something that's going to impress somebody working at a big studio in NY, LA or Nashville. I mean forget it, man.
How do I know none on this forum are that good? Because if one of you is that good you wouldn't be writing the stuff you post here. In other words you would be way above us mere mortals. I don't know that I would have said it quite that way. That is downright insulting. People here are enjoying writing and creating music. And we have people here from all skill levels, beginners to pros. Personally, I think there are several writers here who do write marketable music. One thing I have learned in the decades I have been in the music business and playing at all sorts of levels and with some amazingly talented folks...... it's not necessarily how talented you are on a given instrument that determines if you succeed or not, or that you can write really good songs. It's more about who you know and who owes you a favor, and the luck of being in the right place at the right time. Talent is important, but it's not the most important thing in determining who makes it and who doesn't. There's a bunch of really, really, talented folks playing street corners and gigs for tips in NYC, LA, and Nashville. Most of those, sadly, will never make it. And really, what you are describing is not unique to the music business. It applies to every business and every profession. Two guys start two plumbing or electrical, or car sales businesses. 20 years later, one is running the biggest business of it's kind in town and the other guy is working with 2 helpers in a small business or has gone into something different. I understand, from having been in it for decades, that "making it" in the music business, is not easy, and most folks never will. I personally, do not write and record my songs for you, or anyone else for that matter to hear. I don't write and record thinking about a Grammy winning song or the fortune and fame that might come. I write and record because, and I suspect like the others here, and writers all around the world, I enjoy the creative process of writing, and I'm writing for me. I write and record because it's what I enjoy doing. I write and record because there's something I want to say, or a story I want to tell in the song. I write and record because it's FUN. If...and that's a big "if"..... if I ever get a major name cut, well, that would be the icing on the proverbial cake. While I'm waiting for the next "Garth Brooks" to record one of my tunes...  .. excuse me while I go and have some fun.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 12/09/14 02:57 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I don't know that I would have said it quite that way. That is downright insulting. People here are enjoying writing and creating music. And we have people here from all skill levels, beginners to pros. Yeah, when I really start to get into something I write fast and my normal editing abilities tend to "ahem" deteriorate. I should have caught that and softened it up a bit. There's so many on these forums who think they have a clue about this or that and really don't but like someone said, Biab users are for most part hobbyists who are just trying to have some fun and that's great. There are also those who are like the people Eddie referred to who go out for all these free jams, do a bunch of weak, unrehearsed gigs, sound like crap and think they're players. I agree with him that tends to [*****] me off too. [edit] Oh c'mon forum P me off is being censored? Gimme a break, now I'm really getting #*^%*!!. Anyway, I'm certainly not saying anyone in this thread is like that, but there are others who are so I was generalizing which is always a bad idea. Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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kudos to everyone who has participated in this discussion! It's been one of those rare exchanges where many points of view were expressed intelligently and totally without any fighting! Now that we know it's possible, we should talk more often!
(now we return to the regularly scheduled intelligent conversation)
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"Anyway, I'm certainly not saying anyone in this thread is like that, but there are others who are so I was generalizing which is always a bad idea." Yeah, Bob. Bad idea. You have no idea who you're running down when you do it. There are others here who have actually had careers in the business besides yourself. And still do. To recap: “I swear most of you have no idea of what I'm talking about here but I'll keep trying to get through.” And: “There's so many on these forums who think they have a clue about this or that and really don't” So, you came off “the road” in 1974. 40 years ago. And you are a font of knowledge on the music business, and songwriting? Your attitude is so utterly condescending that it is hard to believe. I'll ask again – do you write music, Bob? I'd love to hear some of it. Maybe we could all learn from your many years in the business. 
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No Ed, these skills are not mutually exclusive and I can point you to a bunch of folks who excel at both.... drop in to the Cakewalk Songs Forum and have a listen to some of the music written and recorded there. I'll make sure to watch the next Grammy show and look for "best writer on the Cakewalk Songs Forum". I am talking about being George Martin, Mutt Lange, Brian Wilson, Rick Rubin, Quincy Jones, Tom Dowd, Jim Steinman, Steve Popovich, Phil Spector, Roy Thomas Baker, Jerry Wexler, Jimmy Iovine..... the REAL industry heavyweights. I don't know who is in that forum, and I won't be visiting to find out, but being the best writer and producer in your own home studio isn't what wins awards or gets you into the rock hall of fame. Remember, the best guy YOU know is likely not even on the radar of the real music business. This is all about perspective. I never had the opportunity to live "the dream". I wanted to tour on the bus, play every 3rd day in another city, sell the arenas out, watch t-shirts sell faster than they could be produced, win the Grammy, have gold records on my wall. I am just not good enough. I lived the delusion that I was good enough but didn't have connections and that's all that was missing. It took until my 40s before I accepted the painful reality that the problem was my limited skill set. The best bands to come through my area were The Raspberries and The James Gang. They both contained members (Eric Carmen and Joe Walsh, respectively) who went on to bigger things, but their success as bands was limited in the biggest scope of things, yet still FAR beyond anything I ever did. I was in some really good bands, but good is a relative term. In that same bigger scope, no we weren't really all that good. Honesty, while sometimes a bitter pill, is never a bad thing. Think about how many AWFUL singers you know that continue to attend every karaoke night and be laughed at because their "friends" continue to tell them they can sing. Is it fair of those "friends" to not be honest? Those same people wind up as the comic relief on American Idol. When I look to the ultimate hybrid artist, I think of Todd Rundgren, who also belongs on that list of top producers (Bat Out Of Hell, anyone?). He writes it, he plays it, he sings it, he produces it, he engineers it, and he does much of it on software he wrote himself. However, he is a rare breed, and people have actually heard of him. Without the Cakewalk Songs Forum. Remember, perspective. What do YOU consider a success? That will color your input on discussions like this.
Last edited by eddie1261; 12/09/14 01:48 PM.
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eddie1261
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So, you came off “the road” in 1974. 40 years ago. And you are a font of knowledge on the music business, and songwriting? That makes you what, 75-80 years old? Unless you came "off the road" in your mid 20s, in which case how much noise could you have made on "the road"? Shouldn't we all know you? Lennon, McCartney, Wilson, and Bob?
Last edited by eddie1261; 12/09/14 01:51 PM.
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FWIW I welcomed Bruce Swedien to the KVR Audio forum a few years back. Or someone posing as Bruce Swedien.....
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I'll ask again – do you write music, Bob? I'd love to hear some of it. Maybe we could all learn from your many years in the business. I said our songwriting sucked, what more do you want? My whole point was I realized I wasn't as good as I thought I was and neither are a lot of people here. There I said it again, oops. I said a lot, not all. what's a lot? 20%, 40%? Pick a number. My downfall was I was good enough to get my foot in the door and think I had a chance. If I wasn't quite as good at the time I wouldn't have done much of anything and would have moved on much sooner. I also didn't give my whole life's here story either. I said I quit the business as a career I didn't say I quit the business entirely. And no I'm not 75 but alas I'm not that far away from that. I was an AFM member for about 25 years and booking agent for about 6 years and I still do a lot of things now such as I'll be at the NAMM show next month. If you're going to be there let me know, we can get together. Not joking, I'm sure we'd get along fine in person. A beer or two solves lots of things. Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Got a phone message from Johnny today. Wanted to know how I was doing. And what I was thinking about after our session. Boy, he has no idea!! He said that maybe he was a little hard on things and he hoped he did not discourage me. This made me smile. Got to call him back tomorrow. Wife asked me to invite him to Christmas dinner "with regular people" at our home... I just know this will all work out for the good. Like a Christmas miracle. I started on-line lessons last week at http://guitarinfusion.com/I had been watching this guy for several years so I know what he has to offer. So far so good.
BIAB – 2026, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud.
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He said that maybe he was a little hard on things and he hoped he did not discourage me. I like him already.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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I'll be at the NAMM show next month.
Bob Bob, go by the Westone booth and tell Karl and Kris (they will be some of the older guys that play in the 'silent' band) and tell them Scott said "Hi". Those guys are twin brothers, long time Westone employees and really started the whole in-ear monitor business. Good friends of mine. Or talk to Hank - he'll be the tallest Westone employee there. -Scott
Last edited by rockstar_not; 12/10/14 04:47 PM.
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Just got a chance to finally read through the entire thread -- quite an interesting discussion.
On one hand I am quite realistic about my singing talents, my writing, performing and recording skills -- and my chances of ever doing anything that amounts to much in the music business.
On the other hand, I suffer from a bit of the walter mitty syndrome, I am quite the dreamer. Unfortunately, my dreaming time often takes away from actually getting better (ha, ha).
I fancy myself to be an OK songwriter -- but I really know that I am not, especially when I listen to the great songs being recorded by the Avett Brothers, the Lumineers, Head and the Heart and the list goes on.
Maybe my biggest failing in songwriting so far has been not co-writing enough. Maybe 2015 will be the year I get off the stick. I will release a solo CD early in 2015 just to say I did it, though!! All with my $50 mic, $29 preamp and ancient a/d interface on my vista computer along with BIAB. If I am going to be crappy, I am going all out!
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I have read articles of many of the old time stars of the past recording and producing albums on a laptop, with the new capabilities of digital music today you can create amazing sound inside a simple system that took 100s of thousands dollar of gear in years past. I also know some amazing musicians that never made it cause they had other goals, but still can play/entertain like the big names can.
I think calling out folks here and on other forums cause they are not household names is kind of bad form, and really short sighted. Not ever talented person wants to shine before a world stage, some just really enjoy and are adept at music, as well as other things. I don't consider myself a talented musician. But i can entertain friends and eve stranger at times. I am like Eddie in that i have several other talents, I am a fair carpenter, i owned and operated a successful alarm business like Guitarhacker does. I am a bonded and licensed Locksmith, but my day job is a manager of a contraction company.
Still one of my true deep interior loves is music. I play the guitar, and bass. not great but adequately. It make Me happy.
There are some very talented people here and on other forums. Some have more talent that big name "artist" They either are to busy making a life for themselves and their families, not in the right situation, or have other goals. That does not make them less talented. Look at some of the people that were mentioned above, or alluded to. Brian Wilson, famous, and considered a genius. Are all his songs great lyrical milestones? Not some were simple and even childish, what made him famous was his ability to layer sound. Bob Dylan, was he ever a great singer? Not really, but good enough to make his craft stand out. Actually many of his songs i just don't get. For most of these mentioned they wanted this, and positioned themselves carefully, and them with a ton of hard work, and a huge pile of luck.
Back to the cover issue again, some of the biggest names in the history of music were cover artist. Anyone ever know of one song Elvis Presley wrote? I can't think of one. All his originals were written by other song writers, and many of his hits were covers from other genres.
Just because someone does this for a hobby does not mean they are untalented, and just because someone makes it big does no mean they are, it just means that they are both doing what they want, and can do. Some cover work is great, some sucks, some original artist are great, some suck. it is a bad idea to put others in a box because what they do is not our cup of tea. Those who box others often get boxed as well.
As Peter G says, have fun!
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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