I don't really get into this genre very much... so I have not explored the possibilities that BB has to offer.

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Here the problem is honestly that I have reached my current level of incompetence at engineering, particularly pop engineering. I have yet to really understand how this genera of music gets a clean bottom end in a mix of nearly all bottom end. I continue to study and learn. I am sure I will get better in time, but I do hear the problem.


Hearing the issue is the first step to learning how to do it right. One thing I have noticed with the few styles that I have played with is that the bottom end is not full and clean enough (to my ears) to do a good job at a competitive level. The bass IMHO would probably need to be done manually with a synth using a sample or patch that does have that enormously huge sound. There's not easy "do this to fix it" that I can tell you.... it's what you have already acknowledged....keep leaning and keep doing. You will figure it out eventually. If it was easy, everyone would do it. Hint... go to other recording website forums such as Cakewalk and register to use the forum. Listen to the songs posted there. In Cake's forum there are songs from ALL genre's and very few of them are using BB so when you hear something that you want to emulate.... ask the person how they did that particular thing. Much of what I learned about recording and production came about in that very manner. Find people who already know what they're doing and ask them.

You are wise to understand that BB is pretty weak at times in certain genre's when it comes to being able to do contemporary sounding things. In most cases, it's simply that the "contemporary style" has moved on from where it was 12 months earlier.....remember that BB tracks are last years styles. Cutting edge stuff on the radio now, might be in BB in a year, maybe 2. So you're at a definite disadvantage in that area. I recognize that even in country. I don't see any Band Perry styles, or Florida Georgia line styles.... and by the time they show up, country will have moved the line again.

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Another problem I had here is the Drone note loop. It was the first loop I added to start the piece off with, and it was the wrong one. I found myself fighting it the rest of the production cycle and never really overcame it. I am sure you are hearing some of that struggle.


I did hear some things in the song that I didn't mention since I felt I was hitting some other things and no need to hit every nit. But yes, there are places where things didn't jive musically all on the same notes and such things....I call it combing the nits.... you have to go through your song with a critical ear. If things don't fit, if you hear something that's off or a click or anything that detracts from the song..... go through it and find and fix the issue. Often I will hear something in a song...sounds like a click or something like that, or a flubbed note.... I go back before that one measure.... and solo the tracks one at a time to find it. Sometimes it's not a single track but the interaction between TWO tracks. In this case, once I find the issue, a selective mute by envelope on one of the tracks for a single note solves the issue....

So if you hear things that don't work in the mix after a certain point in time into the mixing process, delete the track or at least mute it. It doesn't matter if you spent 10 hours of time on that one track... if it's not working, get rid of it. Referring to the loop you mentioned. I generally have 4 to 6 muted tracks setting at the bottom on any given project of tracks that didn't work in one way or another....or that I just didn't need. Never leave a track just because.....

One of the things I do is use the minimum number of tracks to get the job done. Less is more. That might be something to consider when it comes to the bottom end of the songs you are doing.... Use volume envelopes too. Listen to the target song you are working to emulate and see how the producer built that song.... use of instruments, when things are brought in and taken out... any obvious FX or reverbs, echo, EQ,,,, lots of things to consider.... you are reverse engineering the mix... so listen carefully and make notes if you need to do so.

On the vocals.... listen carefully to the target track and where the vocals are with levels and reverbs. NOW.... listen to how they have multiple layers in the chorus. Getting layering right isn't easy, but it's doable with time.

Here's what I do on vocals... I'll use Dust on the Floor, my latest song in the forum as the example. The lead vox was tracked 3x. One was up the center and it was fixed by Melodyne to correct for pitch drift and other minor pitch/timing issues. The other 2 lead tracks were panned 100% L or R respectively. I pulled them down to -18db to -20db below the lead. My test is by ear..... I solo the vocal bus and I can hear the other 2 leads really low. I un-solo and back in the mix I can NOT pick out the other 2 leads easily. With harmony, I record 2 tracks and place them -12db to -16db, panned 50% L/R and set the final levels by ear. I don't pitch fix the secondary leads or the harmonies unless something in the final mix sticks out as needing it. That would be a starting point for you to explore.

With pop, you want the harmonies to be "there" and almost like a part of the lead vocal.....with you DO NOT want is Gatlin Brothers, and Statler Bros style harmonies where all the harmonies are clearly heard.

I have used BB tracks in many of the songs I place with publishers. Several of the songs were 100% BB/RB tracks and the publisher's in question signed the songs. Some were submitted for several high profile current TV shows. So BB has the ability to get you across that high bar mark. Pay particular attention to the vocals. Use pitch fixing. An off pitch vocal will get you a pass rather that a cut.

On the other hand, I have had several publishers come back to me and tell me the music sounded "too midi" and to use "real instruments" and record the song again. In that case, there were no midi tracks in the song.....they were all real band renderings. So yes, some pubs have the ears to be able to pick that out and will turn you down before you get in the door. One thing to try to avoid that issue is to use tracks that are in the key of the song you are writing so that there isn't a need for major transposing with it's inherent artifacts. Careful editing in a DAW is also super critical.

I submitted a few jazz tracks that I thought sounded below broadcast quality to a library listing I saw a few years back. Knowing this was a major player in the market (from the listing info) I figured I was wasting my time but hey... what the hey... So I sent 2 tracks. One was accepted and sent on. The library contacted me in a few days and I sent them the other song as well plus a third. All were 100% BB/RB and not really the best quality recording.... not close to what I do now... but surprise, surprise... all 3 of the songs were signed and added to a CD this library was sending to the producer. You can never tell until after you send things in.

Remember, you are competing with the best of the best anytime you are trying to get a cut in film or TV. Doubt me? Simply listen to the quality of the music in the hit TV shows and films.... it's top of the heap.

Getting to broadcast quality is a milestone in itself..... but then, you still have to get the innovation and cool factor going to have your tunes stick out to the producers in the shows. They are listening literally to thousands of songs and cues to pick that one perfect cut that fits and works for them.

Keep working, keep learning, keep writing, keep exploring.... it will come together one day and start to work.

Last edited by Guitarhacker; 01/23/15 03:56 AM.
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