Herb, my other thought was that since I would only capo to one alternate position on the neck that I might get stick on dots and put them on what would become the 3rd fret to my eyes if I capo on the 2nd fret. It's just SO difficult for me to have my brain trained 2 different ways. I have a friend who plays her guitar in this weird tuning (from 6 to 1, DADGAD) and then picks up a different guitar in standard tuning and plays it. I would have to put myself in a place where I sit in a quiet corner and purge my brain of everything I know about the guitar after playing it since 1964. I have to play instinctively. If I have to think at all about what I am doing, I am 2 measures behind the rest of the band. I CAN play open tuning, like open D or open G or open E, when I play slide.
I imagine if I holed up and spent time I could learn the "split brain" thing but I really don't perform any more and if i am going to learn anything new it wouldn't be anything in music. Like I want to find a college that will let me sit in and audit wind technology classes so I can learn how to turn wind into electricity. Then do the same with solar. 59 years of music has been enough.
Lol, you better don't try to play pedal steel, especially one with a universal tuning or a twin neck. And never try to play a copedant of another player. It might be confusing. ... especially if you decide to change necks within a tune.
Really, there is no split brain required. Treat it as a different instrument. I reckon you can differentiate between different saxes and their tunings. The same applies to a guitar with or without a capo.
Herb, we had the same experience but i was the guy with the capo. To my ear the open chord sounds that a capo affords is a reason to use it. I transcribed the flat key chords to the capo chords on the fly after awhile and helped me avoid barre chords.
I started out playing by ear on guitar. When I started playing the piano I started sight reading...slowly...lol I am still kinda slow at sight reading.
I also play trumpet both by ear and sighting reading and I don't too much care what key you play in. Some keys are less trouble that others.Learned to play trumpet and read in high school. Sight reading horn lines are a lot less of a problem for me than sight reading piano, perhaps because I learned that as a young kid.
If I am playing guitar with a horn section I always ask if they are ok with the key. 99% of the time the horn players I have played with can play in any key without issue. I like to sing in A so moving up to Bb or down to Ab is not much of a issue for most songs.
There is a lot of blues in the key of E and it just does not sound good in any other key, mostly because that is what we are use to hearing, and because of the open strings and low notes that are normally played.
For the guitar, I can play in any key, but for some reason I don't like to play much in Eb.
Why anyone would play in Gb I don't know, so I just play in Gb and think in F#. Don't ask me to sight read in Gb...lol
Of the two skills I think it is a lot harder to learn to play by ear than to learn to sight read. For me the hardest thing to do by ear is to play with just a drummer and a bass player when the bass player does not go to the tonic on the chord change. Also it is hard for me to hear the very low notes on the bass, E to F for example. Too many bombing runs in Viet Nam I guess. Hearing loss from the aircraft I was flying.
Playing with the old blues guys, it was rare for anyone to call the key. The lead player would just kick something off and it was expected that I would have it figured by the second or third note. There were exceptions to that, like when everyone needed to play the same note at the same time on the intro for example. Some of the old blues players could read but most could not or would not. Almost all of the old black jazz players I have played with could sight read and could give anyone a run for the money when it came to theory, no matter what high dollar school you went to.
I never met anyone who told me that learning both skill sets caused them any issues.
There is an old joke about how to get the guitar player to shut up....put some sheet music in front of him...lol
For sure one would need both skill sets to play in the studio in LA or Nashville, or New York. A guitar player would need to read Tab and Nashville number system and sight read.
There is a time and place for everything. I have had some negative feedback for bring sheet music on stage by a few guys who worked for me, but not from the people that were paying the bill.
There are always exception to most everything and this has been just my experience. I have not been everywhere and been exposed to everything.
Cheers,
Billy
EDIT: This brings up another sticky problematic issue. If I am working as a side man in your band I am going to play whatever you ask me to to the best of my ability. If you are working for me you will play what I ask you to or I will find someone who can and will. Don't come to my gig to learn the material and you XXXX sure better not come to my gig to drink and do drugs. Hard XXX old school thinking?? Yep, so get with the program..lol..I came to the gig to work and I expect and demand the same from the people who work for me. I am sure this edit will not be well received by some...lollol
Last edited by Planobilly; 10/07/1502:56 PM.
“Amazing! I’ll be working with Jaco Pastorius, Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, and Buddy Rich, and you’re telling me it’s not that great of a gig? “Well…” Saint Peter, hesitated, “God’s got this girlfriend who thinks she can sing…”
But even if I have a capo on 2, and I want an Am, playing a full barre chord, it's still the 5th fret. It's playing open strings that are no longer EADGBE that messes me up.
Like okay. One of my songs was in D but I needed to play some arpeggiated chords with accent notes that required me to play it with open C fingering. Yes, I could have put a capo on 2 and played it like the capo was the nut and I was playing it in C, but my brain would not allow that. I actually ended up putting lighter gauge strings on a guitar and tuning it up to F#-B-E-A-C#-F# so I could play it like it was a normal tuning but had to train my brain like "The song is now in C. The song is now in C. The song is now in C. The song is now in C. The song is now in C. The song is now in C." And I literally had to do a chart of the chord pattern in C to play it that way. I could not get my perfect-pitch addled brain to play a note I knew was a D as if it was a C. Nor could I get my guitar playing brain to ignore the fret markers. It's weird, I know, but remember I also have my DVDs and CDs in alphabetical order. And if I bought a CD by Notes Norton, I am so OCD that I would move every CD after where Notes Norton falls alphabetically in my collection back one slot so that CD was in proper order. If I bought a CD by Adam Ant, it would be a 2 hour project for me to move about 700 CDs in binders all back one slot so Adam Ant was where it belonged.
OCD, anal retentive and ADHD (plus PTSD!) is NOT a good combination.
Last edited by eddie1261; 10/07/1503:44 PM. Reason: corrected typos
I could not get my perfect-pitch addled brain to play a note I knew was a D as if it was a C. Nor could I get my guitar playing brain to ignore the fret markers. It's weird, I know, but remember I also have my DVDs and CDs in alphabetical order. And if I bought a CD by Notes Norton, I am so OCD that I would move every CD after where Notes Norton falls alphabetically in my collection back one slot so that CD was in proper order. If I bought a CD by Adam Ant, it would be a 2 hour project for me to move about 700 CDs in binders all back one slot so Adam Ant was where it belonged.
I do understand that there are people like you. And I do understand that their mind works that way. I guess I also do have corners in my mind that are more rigid, but some areas seem to work fine with a relative starting point.
I had to play some songs in so many different keys or transpose them on the fly from sheet music that I play in the key of "C" on any position of the fretboard. Back in the 1970s my guitar was constantly tuned in Eb. That probably helped also. Transposing on the fly causes me to have a lot more trouble on my piano-accordion. It is much easier on a button-accordion where you play the same pattern on just a different location of the button (?) board. (I don't have one so this is no option for me, but I have that experience from playing my accordion's bass section.) Maybe I should devise an Irving Berlin type accordion.
I also have my CDs and vinyl's in strict alphabetical order, some exceptions where an artist has changed names occur, but I left room to insert CDs without moving all the ones after that one. Adam Ant would cause me to move about 30-something CDs on the shelf -- I don't have CDs in binders -- and I don't have a shelf with molds for each CD so I had to move them individually. It is a wooden board that has a slightly smaller depth than a Jewel case is long, so I just push 'em a little to the right.
The accordion is nice for key changes though. Wherever you start, one row of bass buttons up is a 5th, down is a 4th. Chord wheel right before your eyes. That really helped me learn chord relationships at an early age. I was 4yrs 10 months when I started on my 17 key, 8 bass button accordion. And I still have it! 59 years later.
If I am working as a side man in your band I am going to play whatever you ask me to to the best of my ability. If you are working for me you will play what I ask you to or I will find someone who can and will. Don't come to my gig to learn the material and you XXXX sure better not come to my gig to drink and do drugs.
That's what I like about BB/RB.
They don't show up late, drunk, or stoned and the drummer doesn't try to steal your wife or girlfriend. They don't run up a bar tab and then skip out without paying it. And they don't bring drunk, loud, obnoxious groupies into the band's dressing room backstage.
And they play what you ask them to and do it professionally. Essentially, the perfect band.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
Mine was bought by my dad somewhere around 1949, at four years of age the accordion was still to large with 41 keys and 120 bass buttons. But an uncle of mine did impress me on a visit playing boogie woogie songs, don't recall how good it was but it made a lasting impression.
I was around 7 or 8 when I started to take lessons.
Needless to say, I still have it, had it in the shop last year to change the right-hand manual reed chamber and I'm back to relearning one of my favorites: Dobs Boogie. Right-hand/left-hand coordination seems to have left the house for such stuff.
Know what else is weird for me, Notes? I CAN NOT play a guitar with a capo.<...>
I don't use one either, for two reasons:
I learned moveable chords first, and find them very easy - I'll use open string chords only if the song requres that
I find the capo puts the guitar slightly out of tune, add fingers on a fret and it's even more out of tune. I don't suppose it's enough for the audience to notice, but I spent so much time training my ears to play the sax in tune, that not being able to resolve a note in tune when I want to just bugs me.
This is not to dis capo players. Plenty of people do it and do it well, it's just not for me.
<...> My capo is the index finger. I don't care about the fret. You know the difference between "absolute" and "relative"? The fifth fret on a guitar without a capo is absolute, the fifth fret on a guitar with capo is relative.
If you play barré chords, there is no difference between an A or a Bb, actually. You just start at a different fret. (I don't care about the key, that includes spelled out chords. Everthing is relative. I play in the key of C on any fret of the guitar. Smile)<...>
Barre and other movable chords are my preference.
Unlike guitar, when playing sax or keyboard, changing the key a half step requires entirely new fingering. Going from the key of C to C# means going from no flats or sharps to 7 sharps, including the B# which is also a C natural. I can do that but it takes a brain shift.
With Barre and other movable chords, I just move my hand up a fret and play everything with the same fingering!!! After decades on the saxophone, that part of learning guitar was a treat!!! Hey! do you want to modulate up another half step? This is fun, how about another?
The down side of guitar is that it is definitely harder to learn to read sheet music on the guitar.
Thanks for the Hendrix pictures - I posted that there were exceptions to the rule, and Jimi is definitely one of them. Jimi did know a lot of music theory, just not how to read/write it. Eroll Garner (composer of "Misty") is another exception. But for every genius like that, there are millions of people who can't duplicate that feat.
Now it is not my intention to make anybody feel inferior because they lack a particular skill. That's not the point. On the other hand, I do encourage everyone who wants to improve their musical skills and expressive potential to learn as much as they can though.
If you give up one TV show per night, you could probably learn to read non-complex sheet music in one TV season. It's not difficult once you get the hang of it, and then the rest comes rather quickly. Same for a music theory book.
I can make simple things with a saw, hammer, nails, glue and screws. My neighbor makes artistic one-of-a-kind furniture pieces, and they are beautiful. I don't feel badly that he has much better carpentry skills than I do. I play better sax than he does
I played with a piano/trumpet player who had absolute pitch (perfect pitch).
She thought of everything in concert key, which meant when she read trumpet charts, she had problems getting her brain around the notation being off, and transposing it to the concert key notes she learned on her trumpet.
I played sax in guitar bands most of my life. While sax players in orchestras prefer Bb and Eb concert, I really like playing in E and A concert better. My fingers are happier in those keys.
BTW, if two musicians auditioned for my band and had equal musical and personality skills, except one could read music, and the other not, I'd choose the reader. Of course, two people are never that identical with that one exception.
I once knew a woman who played pedal harp in Eugene Ormandy's Philly Orch. She played beautifully. Take the sheet music away, and she couldn't improvise a note.
Which skill is more useful? That, obviously, is a matter of opinion.
I am of the opinion that if someone can play well and improvise, I don't care if they can read English.
I once knew a woman who played pedal harp in Eugene Ormandy's Philly Orch. She played beautifully. Take the sheet music away, and she couldn't improvise a note.
Which skill is more useful? That, obviously, is a matter of opinion.
I am of the opinion that if someone can play well and improvise, I don't care if they can read English.
I'm with you Bob. A music teacher once told me she couldn't play 2 bars of anything without sheet music in front of her.
I couldn't help but think she had no business teaching.
Know what else is weird for me, Notes? I CAN NOT play a guitar with a capo.<...>
I don't use one either,
Well....that makes (3) of us. I've had one forever...put in on once....for about (3) minutes. Tried a couple of open chords with it and it just wasn't for me. I've never had problem with any chord structures so it hasn't graced a fret board since.
I once knew a woman who played pedal harp in Eugene Ormandy's Philly Orch. She played beautifully. Take the sheet music away, and she couldn't improvise a note.
Which skill is more useful? That, obviously, is a matter of opinion.
I am of the opinion that if someone can play well and improvise, I don't care if they can read English.
I'm with you Bob. A music teacher once told me she couldn't play 2 bars of anything without sheet music in front of her.
I couldn't help but think she had no business teaching.
As am I. My wife is an excellent pianist, providing she has sheet music in front of her. Take away the sheet music and she is lost. She is also lost with fake books. She needs everything notated.
The fitness trainer asked me, "What kind of a squat are you accustomed to doing?" I said, "Diddly."
64 bit Win 11 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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