Hey, for everyone talking about the benefits of mastering to "industry standards," here's an interesting experiment.
Use the Audacity Program to open up an MP3 of the song "Born to Run"* (if you have one) from the CD and study it. Look at the headroom and listen to the volume level. Look at how the waveform looks like--well, a wave. It rises and falls. It ebbs and flows.
Then do the same thing with "Radio Nowhere"* (for comparison, if you have one.) Look at at how the waveform in Radio Nowhere is a thick blue brick pushed all the way to the edge of maximizing, and then shaved off a few nanometers from spiking with the barest amount of limiting. Notice how the needle is constantly in the red. Notice how your ears bleed. Notice how if you go back to listening to Born to Run after listening to Radio Nowhere you will no longer be able to hear it because it sounds muted and you feel deaf. Those are not your headphones that have been muted. Those are your eardrums.
Ok, now think about this: Born to Run is universally recognized as one of the greatest Rock 'n Roll songs of all time. It took 6 months to produce and about another 6 months to master.
Was the mastering "bad"? Did they not know what they were doing? Did it not sound like a hit? Yet, by Spotify and SoundCloud standards it is nowhere near professional loudness norms.
Are you still sure you want a robot mastering tool mastering your stuff?
Really sure?
Really, really, really sure???
* If you don't have these songs try similar experiments with any songs released say 10 years ago, with any hit released today.
David Snyder Songwriter/Renaissance Man Studio + Fingers
Well I can only agree with the conclusion not being able to listen to either of those songs both absent from my limited CD collection.
I will add one thing technology has come a long way since some songs were released. I believe if any producer would go back and REMASTER any old song, they will end up quite different. But, your point will still be made, today the louder songs would be lowered a bit and the lower volume songs would be raised a bit. We all get Vanilla from the music industry today. No more 31 flavors.
Except here in the PG Forum where we can do anything we Da _ _ _ d well please.
A little more Cowbell!!
Last edited by dga; 05/30/1601:23 PM.
"When you help somebody else you are really helping yourself"
If you don't have these songs try similar experiments with any songs released say 10 years ago, with any hit released today.
Your point is valid but unless you have a DeLorean to go back and release your music before the start of The Loudness War, in order to have any chance of success at all in today's market you must master your stuff using similar techniques as "any hit released today"! On the other hand, if you (like I) have already concluded that you have a better chance of being hit by space debris than getting a hit with your music, then by all means buck the trend, be true to your school, produce the music you like fer sure!
Also wasn't Born to Run released before the days of CD's?? At least back then I had it on vinyl, don't recall if CD players were around then, if they were I didn't own one.
Point is there are many things mastering wise you can do to a track that is destined for digital release, either CD or WAV or MP3, that you couldn't do for a vinyl release, too loud or too much bass and the needle would jump right out of the groove.
I use Ozone (a very old version) to master here, and I'm always very careful to not add too much compression. I tend to go with the less is more approach, mostly because I'm no expert when it comes to this stuff!
Even though Born to run was pre-CD, they still had compressors and limiters. And if they had them , they could use them or abuse them.
The engineers doing much of the mastering and final production in the 70's simply chose to make the music sound good..... not so much loud.... but good. Nice dynamic range, which I recalled reading, was the holy grail in the day. Listeners had volume knobs to make it loud if they wanted.
Now days, everyone seems to want to have the loudest stuff.... because we do know that loud sounds better than "not loud". In a radio line up, if you want your song to stand out a bit... crank up the loudness levels with compression and use a limiter to really squash it into a brick.
The problem is, when everything is the same volume, your ears quickly become fatigued as David pointed out.
To the folks who use Ozone.... you have to be very careful with the compression. As you crank it up, yep, it sounds fatter and better...... but, dynamics are quickly going out the window.
Here's a few waves from my studio and from a few different projects.
This first one was seriously jacked on the compression. I intentionally cranked the levels to get this brick.
So much better..... still a consistent level but not slammed and not down in the valley.
I couldn't find the other wave photo I wanted to post... but the entire point is this.
It is totally possible to get a loud mix and NOT end up with a brick.
I always look at the wave I export in my wave editor and if I think it's got too many overs or flat tops, I will go back to the project and turn down the overall compression level. It needs to have dynamics. The can be lots of mountain peaks but there also needs to be as many valleys and middle ground.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
One thing I never really see said about "today's music" in these "older is better" arguments is that they also do a lot more sonically to fill in gaps now.
I know, as an example, Nickelback uses a lot of different instruments in their songs that you wouldn't necessarily guess are there...they look for something musical that can cover a spectrum that the other instruments they use don't.
Also, it's not like the guitar is always on 11 AND the drums are on 11. It's more like the guitar is on 11 at some points, then the drums may be at 11 for a fill...but they are usually more like a 7, with the vocal being on 11.
So, yes the entire mix is louder, however there are still internal dynamics that occur.
Why people never talk about THIS part of it more I don't know. Many times I think the argument is misrepresented with statements others have heard over and over and present it as true knowledge.
Myself, I like both, and think they each have their places. You can EASILY find artists today who display dynamics in their music! I guess it's what you are looking for.
When someone says to me "Man, McDonalds...hamburgers just aren't what they used to be!" I ask them "Why are you eating at McDonalds?"
For dynamics, I don't prefer MP3, CD, tape, or vinyl. Give me a LIVE orchestra, and I will show you dynamics! Chills!
Great thread! Thanks for bringing it up. And Bruce Springsteen has GREAT production!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
Thanks for your comments too!. I agree with the part about filling in spaces, but I suppose I was speaking of the "brick" Herb referred to which is what you will see if you open up a lot of stuff and look at it.
It is totally maxed out. A solid wall of blue. Whatever you put in there to be heard that is "extra" can't be heard because there are no gaps. A brick is a brick is a brick.
I guess that was my point, but I agree with your assessment of the live orchestra.
David Snyder Songwriter/Renaissance Man Studio + Fingers
Thanks for your comments too!. I agree with the part about filling in spaces, but I suppose I was speaking of the "brick" Herb referred to which is what you will see if you open up a lot of stuff and look at it.
It is totally maxed out. A solid wall of blue. Whatever you put in there to be heard that is "extra" can't be heard because there are no gaps. A brick is a brick is a brick.
Yup, I know what you mean. I just meant you can't turn something up that isn't there Louder silence isn't all that loud Sonically they fill every gap then brick it! They point isn't to hear it. That's not my opinion btw. I like things to breath a bit
Quote:
I guess that was my point, but I agree with your assessment of the live orchestra.
It is one of the wonders I wish for everyone to experience.
I have to say, I REALLY enjoyed many of Elton John's songs from Australia with the orchestra. "Tonight" was a completely different song! I love the dynamics of volume and pacing. Enjoy if you are so inclined
Thanks again for the topic!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
I just downloaded this free product and used it, stand alone and VST. It is amazing!!! It gives you what Ozone does not, even though I love Ozone. What a miracle tool. Thanks you so much for recommending. I will use this all the time. Now you're talking!!!!!!! And it gives you a print out! Dang!!
Love it!!!!
David Snyder Songwriter/Renaissance Man Studio + Fingers
I just downloaded this free product and used it, stand alone and VST. It is amazing!!! It gives you what Ozone does not, even though I love Ozone. What a miracle tool. Thanks you so much for recommending. I will use this all the time. Now you're talking!!!!!!! And it gives you a print out! Dang!!
Love it!!!!
What I usually do is a rough mix, then run it through the TT, making note of the headroom on the L/R channels. Then I "master" the mix and re-check it. If I can maintain the headroom in the mastered mix I had in the rough, I'm a happy camper.
You will love this tool!! You can use it to study some of your favorite MP3s and you can tell at a glance while they sound so great...it shows you the dynamic contrast range as a number. Like 11 is good, 2 is bad. Thick as a brick is like 1.5
Follow the instructions in the manual exactly when loading the file with the DLL in Steinberg. You have to load the whole folder. It will show you. But if you don't do exactly what they say it won't work. Read that manual carefully.
Insert it into the mastering channel of RB or your other DAW and you will never look at your mix strip and effects chains the same way ever again.
It is awesome.
David Snyder Songwriter/Renaissance Man Studio + Fingers
XPro and Xtra Styles PAKs Special Extended Until August 31st!
XPro & Xtra Styles PAKs Special Extended Until August 31st!
The XPro Styles PAKs and Xtra Styles PAKs special offers are now available until August 31st at 11:59pm PDT!
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Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 19 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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Mac 2025 Special Upgrade Offers Extended Until August 15th!
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Learn more about the Bonus PAKs!
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These RealTracks includes “Soul Jazz” with Neil Swainson (bass), Mike Clark (drums), Charles Treadway (organ), Miles Black (piano), and Brent Mason (guitar). Enjoy “Requested ’60s” jazz, classic acoustic blues with Colin Linden, and more of our popular 2-handed piano soloing. Plus, a RealTracks first—Tango with bandoneon, recorded in Argentina!
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This collection includes Disco, slap bass ‘70s/‘80s pop, modern and ‘80s metal with Andy Wood, and a unique “Songwriter Potpourri” featuring Chinese folk instruments, piano, banjo, and more. You’ll also find a muted electric guitar style (a RealTracks first!) and “Producer Layered Guitar” styles for slick "produced" sound.
Country, Americana & Praise (Sets 462–467):
We’ve added new RealTracks across bro country, Americana, praise & worship, vintage country, and songwriter piano. Highlights include Brent Mason (electric guitar), Eddie Bayers (drums), Doug Jernigan (pedal steel), John Jarvis (piano), Glen Duncan (banjo, mandolin & fiddle), Mike Harrison (electric bass) and more—offering everything from modern sounds to heartfelt Americana styles
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You’ll also get slick ’80s metal guitar from Andy Wood, modern metal with guitarist Nico Santora, bass player Nick Schendzielos, and drummer Aaron Stechauner, more praise & worship, indie-folk, modern/bro country with Brent Mason, and “Songwriter Americana” with Johnny Hiland.
Plus, enjoy user-requested styles like Soul Jazz RealDrums, fast Celtic Strathspey guitar, and Chill Hop piano & drums!
With your version 2025 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons FREE! Or upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
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-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 20 new RealStyles.
Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana
Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes
MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano
Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7
Playable RealTracks Set 4
RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark
SynthMaster Sounds and Styles (with audio demos)
128 GM MIDI Patch Audio Demos.
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyles,
FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster,
Instrumental Studies Set 23: More '80s Hard Rock Soloing,
MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster
Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8
RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Mac!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
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New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!
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XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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Louder silence isn't all that loud 
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