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Songwriting
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We have so many great songwriters here. Perhaps we should add a dedicated songwriters forum. Tips n tricks questions discusssions etc. Cool idea. Anything and everything about the writing of music and lyrics. It could be a neat place for folks to ask questions about the process and art of writing as well as seek out collaborators in an open forum.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Songwriting
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Wayne. EXACTLY! It's all me, its my experience, no one can understand it in my context. Andy.... Typically, I'm very selective when it comes to song writing. My song subjects come from my personal experiences, my take of an aspect of life or imagined story lines. (IE: for concept projects) Not forlorn songs about love lost or broken hearts. Hence...all my song writing efforts are very personal to me. Although, I do think I may have in my early writing archives about (3) of the woman/ballad genre but the last one was written in 1983. We all have our propensities and there's a myriad of subjects to write about. A good day to all....
Last edited by chulaivet1966; 12/11/16 05:18 AM.
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Songwriting
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One of Janice's favorite singers, Gregg Allman, said there are as many ways to write a song as there are songs. He also said that if there is a song in your soul it wiill come out. For us irrespective of genre a song works if it has soul (yeah, I know, define that Bud).
There are hundreds of roots songs, particularly classic bluegrass for example, that have the power to rip the paint right off of your heart. And they are three chords written by folks who couldn't tell you what I IV V means. I'm trying, perhaps poorly, to express that song writing is a big tent that includes the sophistication and class of Duke Ellington to the "true life" writings of Bill Monroe and Carter Stanley.
That's the wonder of it. Not everybody is trying to write a hit. Not everybody has an arsenal of chords. Heck, a lot of writers can't read music. But that doesn't mean they don't have something to say. Or that they might not let you experience their soul for a few minutes.
Bud
PS We think the idea of a songwriting forum would be very cool.
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos are here on our website.
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Songwriting
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eddie1261
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eddie1261
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It has been my experience that I need to have a story to tell. I have never been able to just sit down and write something if I don't have a story in mind. My CD was truly 9 stories from my life.
I need to start dating somebody again and have her dump me so I have something to work with. And really, the finding somebody to date is the hard part. The getting dumped part is pretty much a given....
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Songwriting
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Journeyman
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It has been my experience that I need to have a story to tell. I have never been able to just sit down and write something if I don't have a story in mind. My CD was truly 9 stories from my life.
I need to start dating somebody again and have her dump me so I have something to work with. And really, the finding somebody to date is the hard part. The getting dumped part is pretty much a given.... OK Eddie...you made me laugh. At least you have a sense of humor about it. But, man are your right. As for me, I need a story to get me started also. No story..no song. Bob
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Songwriting
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Given all the books we've read, movies and tv shows we've seen, all the stories we've heard and all the personal stories we've been through -- there should be no lack of things to write about. I don't write personal stories about myself, I make everything up. Some of it works and some of it doesn't -- just like real life.
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Songwriting
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I've sat down a few times with no story in mind, and nothing to write about.
I just started writing and ended up with a few good songs that way. Of course, that road is littered with the broken, derelict, rotting shells of the songs that never made it to the finish line.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Songwriting
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I just started writing and ended up with a few good songs that way. Of course, that road is littered with the broken, derelict, rotting shells of the songs that never made it to the finish line.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!! That may be the funniest thing I have ever heard on this forum!! Ha ha ha ha. A classic!!! Herb, you need to write a song about those rotting eggs man. Throw in a walrus and you're done!
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Apprentice
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Ha! Breakups and barrooms.
Andy
BIAB 2017 Ultra
Windows 8 and 10
Scarlet 18i8
Reaper and Mixpad
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Songwriting
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I just started writing and ended up with a few good songs that way. Of course, that road is littered with the broken, derelict, rotting shells of the songs that never made it to the finish line.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!! That may be the funniest thing I have ever heard on this forum!! Ha ha ha ha. A classic!!! Herb, you need to write a song about those rotting eggs man. Throw in a walrus and you're done! Coo coo ka choo
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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You do yourself a disservice if you don't at least check out the aforementioned free Pat Pattinson course from Berklee.
Last edited by rockstar_not; 12/12/16 09:34 AM.
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I checked it out! Useful tips! Thanks!!
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Songwriting
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To the specific question of "What chords would go good with a melody", there are a number of factors to the answer.
But first, you need to know what chords are in the key.
This requires that you know the key that you're in.
Once you know the key, you need to know the notes of the scale. For example, the notes of the D major scale are (D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#). The notes of the F major scale are (F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E).
Once you know the notes, you can create a list of chords in the scale. The 1st, 4th and 5th notes of a major scale will always give you a major chord. The 2nd, 3rd and 5th will give you a minor chord. The 7th note will give you a diminished chord.
So if you're in the key of D major, you have the chords:
D (D, F#, A)
Em (E, G, B)
F#m (F#, A, C#)
G (G, B, D)
A (A, C#, E)
Bm (B, D, F#)
C#dim (C#, E, G)
Again, I assume you already know this.
OK, now on to the "rules":
1. Most importantly: No matter what the "rules" tell you, if it sounds good, it is good. And if it sounds bad, it is bad.
2. Typically, only "important" notes need to match with the chords. If a note isn't on a strong beat (1st or 3rd beat), or is short, it's OK if that note doesn't go with the chord. A little bit of dissonance makes things interesting.
3. A chord will go with a melody if the melody note is a member of the chord. So if you're in the key of D and have a C# note in the melody, any chord with a C# will sound good. Reworking the chord chart above, we get:
D -> D, Bm, G
E -> Em, C#dim, A
F#m -> F#m, D, Bm
G -> G, Em, C#dim
A -> A, F#m, D
B -> Bm, G, F$
C# -> C#dim, A, F#m[
So the chords C#dim, A and F#m will all sound good with the note C#. You don't really need to make a list, you can just find the chord based on the note you're looking at (C#dim), two steps under that note (A) and two steps over that note (E).
In contrast, the chord G won't work, because the G chord doesn't have a C# note in it - the notes of the G chord are (G,B,D).
This raises the question, "What chords go with other chords?" The answer is "it depends", but in general:
1. If the chord is 3 scale degrees higher than the prior chord, it's strong and smooth. So a D chord will strongly follow a A chord, because D is 3 scale degrees above A: (A,B,C#,D). Similarly, Bm will follow an F#m.
There's a handy diagram called the "Circle of Fifth" or the "Cycle of Fourths" that Google will happily find for you. Learn it and love it.
2. If a chord shares two notes of the prior chord, it'll sound smooth. So a D chord with the notes (D,F#,A) will connect smoothly with a Bm chord containing (B,D,F#), because they share the two notes (D,F#).
3. If the chord is a major and belongs to the key, it can move to any other major chord in that scale. For example, the key of D has three major chords: D, G and A. So any of these chords will smoothly follow each other.
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To the specific question of "What chords would go good with a melody", there are a number of factors to the answer.
But first, you need to know what chords are in the key.
This requires that you know the key that you're in.
Once you know the key, you need to know the notes of the scale. For example, the notes of the D major scale are (D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#). The notes of the F major scale are (F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E).
Once you know the notes, you can create a list of chords in the scale. The 1st, 4th and 5th notes of a major scale will always give you a major chord. The 2nd, 3rd and 5th will give you a minor chord. The 7th note will give you a diminished chord.
So if you're in the key of D major, you have the chords:
D (D, F#, A)
Em (E, G, B)
F#m (F#, A, C#)
G (G, B, D)
A (A, C#, E)
Bm (B, D, F#)
C#dim (C#, E, G)
Again, I assume you already know this.
OK, now on to the "rules":
1. Most importantly: No matter what the "rules" tell you, if it sounds good, it is good. And if it sounds bad, it is bad.
2. Typically, only "important" notes need to match with the chords. If a note isn't on a strong beat (1st or 3rd beat), or is short, it's OK if that note doesn't go with the chord. A little bit of dissonance makes things interesting.
3. A chord will go with a melody if the melody note is a member of the chord. So if you're in the key of D and have a C# note in the melody, any chord with a C# will sound good. Reworking the chord chart above, we get:
D -> D, Bm, G
E -> Em, C#dim, A
F#m -> F#m, D, Bm
G -> G, Em, C#dim
A -> A, F#m, D
B -> Bm, G, F$
C# -> C#dim, A, F#m[
So the chords C#dim, A and F#m will all sound good with the note C#. You don't really need to make a list, you can just find the chord based on the note you're looking at (C#dim), two steps under that note (A) and two steps over that note (E).
In contrast, the chord G won't work, because the G chord doesn't have a C# note in it - the notes of the G chord are (G,B,D).
This raises the question, "What chords go with other chords?" The answer is "it depends", but in general:
1. If the chord is 3 scale degrees higher than the prior chord, it's strong and smooth. So a D chord will strongly follow a A chord, because D is 3 scale degrees above A: (A,B,C#,D). Similarly, Bm will follow an F#m.
There's a handy diagram called the "Circle of Fifth" or the "Cycle of Fourths" that Google will happily find for you. Learn it and love it.
2. If a chord shares two notes of the prior chord, it'll sound smooth. So a D chord with the notes (D,F#,A) will connect smoothly with a Bm chord containing (B,D,F#), because they share the two notes (D,F#).
3. If the chord is a major and belongs to the key, it can move to any other major chord in that scale. For example, the key of D has three major chords: D, G and A. So any of these chords will smoothly follow each other. Wow! That was REALLY nice of you to do AND very useful...yet brief enough to have someone jump right in! To me, it is more important to get someone going using something than trying to teach them EVERYTHING right away...giving them information constipation. Some really great songs have been written that are really simple. From there I feel people "catch the learning bug." I will be showing this to my kids! Thanks!
Last edited by HearToLearn; 12/12/16 12:21 PM.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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David, you should cross-post this to the tips and tricks forum.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2025/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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David. What a great simple explanation. Thank you for taking the time to type this out. I am going to write it out in G (my favourite key) and stick it on my wall.
Last edited by JoanneCooper; 12/12/16 05:36 PM.
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Songwriting
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eddie1261
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eddie1261
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But thing #1 is that you need to expect and accept that you are going to write a LOT of bad songs before you start writing decent ones. I mean the evolution is something like:
bad
not as bad
so so
kinda sorta decent
decent
kinda sorta okay
okay
kinda sort good
good
And those are not one song intervals.
What I am saying in a lighthearted way is that the only way to learn how to play darts is to throw a lot of darts. And the only way to learn how to shoot free throws is to shoot a lot of free throws. And the only way to hit a bulls eye at the gun range is to throw a LOT of rounds downrange.
The only way to learn how to write songs is to just write those bad songs as you grow. Figure out what your story is, write the story out in lines that have a cadence, feeling where beats would be. That gives you some idea for cadence and tempo. Remember that your tempo can't be so fast that you can't get the words out between breaths. Once the cadence of the lyrics fits the cadence of the music (you will feel where natural pulses fit together) then you start thinking about the melody. You may go through 4-5 different melodies before you are comfortable with one.
Just as an example, let's pick The Beatles Love Me Do. Think of those lyrics.
Love, love me do
You know I love you
I'll always be true
So please......
Love me do
and then think of how those lyrics lay against the cadence of the music. That is a loose definition of prosody, how lyrics and music work together.
Now think of their song I've Just Seen A Face. That is a very wordy lyric, but when you lay it against the tempo of the song, they fit together. Think of it like when you slip your hand into a baseball glove and the fingers of your hand naturally find their way into the fingers of the glove. That's what you are after.
This is also where some basic music lessons would help you if you have never taken any. Learning about tempo, where the "1" is in every measure, what a measure is, how to read what the little dots are all about, especially the time value of the quarter note, the half note, the whole note, what a dot behind a note means, tied notes... You don't need to go DEEP into theory, but basics. Like maybe knowing why the different key signatures have sharps and flats. Someone mentioned a chord wheel. When you look at the wheel, moving to the right, each new key adds one sharp. C has none, G has 1, D has 2, etc. When you see the relativity of G being the 5th note of the C scale, and D being the 5th note of the G scale and so forth, it starts to make sense quickly. And going to the left of the wheel you add 1 flat at a time, and those flats happen on the 4th note of a scale. So C has no flats, the 4th note of the C scale is F, and F has one flat. The 4th note of the F scale is B flat, which has 2 flats, and so on. Do you NEED to know that stuff to let BIAB wrote your music and go play at Billy's Bar? Nope! But knowing how to use those tools helps your songwriting craftsmanship like knowing a hammer from a chisel helps a carpenter. It would honestly become clear to you quickly if you took a music fundamentals course at your local community college. Most young people these days learn songs. Nobody learns music.
I hope that made SOME kind of sense to you.
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Songwriting
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Circle of fifths is a great tool, I use it all the time. There are lots of webpages that talk about it, here is one: http://guitaristguitarist.com/guitar_music_theory.htmlI have one printed out and pinned to my wall for reference, I think this is the image I used: Circle of Fifths chart
Last edited by BlueAttitude; 12/13/16 12:43 AM.
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- The 2025 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 33 new RealTracks and 65+ new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 29 new RealTracks and 45+ new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 20 new RealStyles.
- Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana
- Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano
- Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7
- Playable RealTracks Set 4
- RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark
- SynthMaster Sounds and Styles (with audio demos)
- 128 GM MIDI Patch Audio Demos.
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyles,
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster,
- Instrumental Studies Set 23: More '80s Hard Rock Soloing,
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster
- Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8
- RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®!
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Mac!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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