PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Who here reads?

Seeing the notes and the fingerings?

Ok.

The short answer is, sometimes. The longer answer is that it is dependent on what instrument I'm playing and how comfortable I am with the music. But the one thing I don't see is trumpet fingering - that's unconscious. Since I was 13 or so I've been able to play anything I could think (so I spend more time thinking).

Early on, I started learning other instruments. After I retired I set the goal to master a new one each year. These fingerings, like flute and sax, are not unconscious; I struggle with them. But again, it's not trumpet fingerings. In fact, a few aspects of trumpet fingerings interfere with woodwind fingering, so I concentrate on woodwind fingering.

I play vibes. What fingering is that?

Then there is transposition. I know without playing a note what a certain pitch will sound like when I pick up a trumpet. But I play horns pitched in A, Bb, C, Eb, F, and G. If I thought just in terms of trumpet fingerings, I'd be sunk.

And rather than any instrument fingering, I often see and think in terms of the staff. It is especially true when performing something I composed or arranged. The less famous the song, the more I "see" the score.

When I have to sing (which sounds dreadful, but I've sung in operas because I can read the music and they put me in between people with good voices that I can cue), I do mentally play an instrument (often trumpet) to 'lock in' the pitches.

So I'm sorry I can't answer the question easily; I think in whatever of many ways is needed at the moment.

There's the mechanical ability to sightread and play back on an instrument, and then there's the mental ability to sightread and imagine the sounds.

I can play simple monophonic lines. I'm not a particularly good player, and find that after I've been fooling with the flute, the fingering for the clarinet have gotten muddled. I'm just a hobbyist, with no pretension of ever becoming good... just "good enough".

I can play "chordal" piano, but two-handed polyphonic music is a real challenge - and I've been working at it for years. It just doesn't seem like my brain is wired for that level of coordination.

Theory helps a lot. For example, I can read well enough to see the intent of the composer, and substitute something functionally similar that matches my (lower) skill level.

On a good day, I've can sightread a vocal part with 60% accuracy... but I'm guessing at many of the leaps, when I really should know the pitch. So I've got a long way to go there.

I play by ear. To write songs I pick a chord progression I like (either on the guitar, keyboard or in band in a box) and then sing over it again and again and again until it sticks.

It is on my hit list this year to learn to read. My guitar teacher says she has a sure fire method for teaching me to read in a couple of months. Let's see!

PS. I absolutely love my capo and and am totally lost without it. Have been known to use a pencil and rubber band when in a pickle.

I do both, read and play by ear. Like Eddie, I was a better sight reader of actual score when I was 12 than I am now. Now, I'm a very good fake book reader because I do know most of the different chord positions like that 7b9 or b5#9 or 13ths he was talking about and I can read a melody line no problem.

All it is is experience and realizing that lots of those chords are the same hand positions in different keys like a Cm9 with the Eb on the bottom and D on the top is also an Ebmaj7. It's also an F13#11. The only difference between those three chords is the bass. Stuff like that. Youtube is full of great vids with real pros explaining all this.

Playing in big bands the last 10 years yanked me back into being a half decent sight reader again but even those charts have the chords written in like a fake book but they also have complex chords written out that correspond to what the horns are playing which makes for a very busy looking piano chart. At first I was trying to play all that when I realized it there mainly to tell the pianist what the horns are doing, not to actually double those parts.

Now I'm a fairly complete player. Big band, classic rock, funk R&B, old 50's rocking piano/country, small group jazz and solo piano cocktail type stuff. This on piano or B3 and I'll play LH bass sometimes.

The player who absolutely blew me away when he said in an interview that he doesn't read is Joey D. Holy crap, that guy can't read?? So much for thinking that can be a handicap. Still, I think he is that rare exception that really doesn't apply to the average player. The average player needs to read imho.

Bob

Ditto, Mike. Thats why BB scores with me - you don't necessarily need the Theory to make the music.
Cheers
Ian

Thats why i bought BB too. I never learned to read music at svhool and never had piano lessons etc so dots are a mystery.
But since i took up guitar 10 year ago, out of bordom, i know how to play chords and have a good ear.I think thats esential to be able to use it. Your stuffed otherwise.lol.
BTW I tried the chord wizard last night on a tune i liked. Didnt work well. Did better noodling them out myself but it WAS a start point. Prob now is that when I play the sgu the darned mp3 track plays with it!!!
WendyM

When playing sax or wind synth I can still sightread even though I don't need to do that.

If there is an extremely tricky rhythm, I may have to count it out first and would probably get something close on a sight read and go on without losing my place. When I was in school, I could sight read just about anything, but that was ancient history.

I don't think note names, the dots and the fingers are connected. Same for the rhythm, the counting is non-verble.

Reading on the guitar takes woodshedding, as it is my newest instrument. Reading on the guitar is more difficult than the sax, but transposing is easier (lose one thing and gain another).

Piano is another woodshed instrument.

I can and do learn things by ear, but in most cases I prefer to use both my ears and my eyes, so I like to have the music and a recording. Having both skills makes learning something new easier and quicker.

It's my opinion that every musician should learn at least basic music theory, which includes reading.

Sure there are some who can be a great orator and speech writer who never learned to read or write and never learned the rules of grammar, etc., but they are exceptions to the rule. The vast majority do better after learning how to read and language 'theory'.

Same for music. If you know the hows and whys of things, you can do more in less time. That doesn't mean you can't break the rules, but you should know that you are breaking them when you do, so if you like it, you can repeat it at will.

Insights and incites by Notes

This is an interesting read. As for me, I can only wish I could play by ear. If it's not in front of me in black in white, I'm dead in the water....even then, it takes lots of practice...take away the sheet music...dead in the water. I hate getting old...sometimes I don't even remember where I put the sheet music...dead in the water...again!

Jeff

Not reading worked out pretty well for some of my fav artists, e.g., the Beatles, Elvis, Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, Stevie Ray Vaughn, Django Reinhardt and Robert Johnson.

Hey Eddie...good thread. What if you can read, but only on an instrument you don't play? I learned my music theory and reading ability in high school band...on sax. My instruments now are guitar, banjo, and pedal steel, other strings, a bit of keys. So in reality reading does me no good. My experience in a commercial studio is that chord charts are the norm unless you have a string or horn section that NEEDS standard notation. Otherwise you don't bring in great players so you can tell them what to play. You give 'em a bit of general direction, let 'em hear the song and turn 'em loose. When I did my first original album back in '85 I hired platinum producer, Jim Mason (Poco, Firefall) and the education I got on producing, logistics, tracking, mixing etc. was some of the best money I ever spent in my life. But reading...not so much.

Bob

Karel! Dude, your English is way the hell better than my Czech. Kudos and congrats! You have nothing to be ashamed of.

Bob

I know enough about reading music to be dangerous. After taking 7 years of classical piano instruction and nearly as many i school learning drums and playing in the various orchestras and marching bands... I can proudly say I read music at about a 1st grade level.

Essentially, I can look at the staff, understand the time signature, figure out the key, and given enough time, tell you what a specific note is on either of the staves.

As far as sight reading goes.... not a snowball's proverbial chance in hades that I could play anything from sheet music if I didn't already know it.

Playing by ear is a whole different story however. I can hear something and by the color of the chords, tell you what key it's in and what chord is being played. I can play along with music I've never heard before because I can very often "see" where it's going. I know enough about theory to be able to chart the stuff I write if I need to do so.

Mainly, I just play and enjoy the music for what it is and don't worry over the theory and stuff.

There are always exceptions to people who don't read and I firmly believe that if they did, it wouldn't hurt them one bit.

I bought a 'classical' album by Paul McCartney, and he had to hire someone to transcribe it. It was listenable but not worth a lot. Paul really tried to write something but his lack of theory got in the way, and he admitted that.

You may not "Need" to read music, but it's better if you can.

There are people who can converse well without knowing how to read or write English (or their native language). But put a box of Jell-O in front of them and ask them to make it, and they will have no idea.

So you don't "Need" to read English, but it's better if you can.

That's my opinion anyway.

Insights and incites by Notes

All I can say is in my years of playing starting in the Air Force in Japan in the 60's through now here in LA I can't think of anyone who doesn't read. That has to be a couple hundred players. Here in LA virtually every one of them read better than I do. I've done gigs with a bunch of studio session players for example and discussed this. If you don't read, you don't work period.

That Joey D article I mentioned he says he was hired to fly to London to do an album. A limo picked him up from the hotel and when he got to the studio he was handed a book of charts. That's when he told the producer he doesn't read so please just play him what they've done so far and he'll play it by ear. Since he's Joey D, that wasn't a problem but for anybody else....? Btw in case someone doesn't know who I'm talking about it's Joey DeFrancesco probably the best jazz organist in the world right now. He's also some kind of savant, he can listen to the most complex thing and start playing it perfectly in a few seconds in all keys, right now, on the spot. Who here can do that?

It's all about where you're at and what you're trying to accomplish.

Bob

The thing, in my eyes, is this. I am sure there have been GREAT players who could not read. Many, , the Beatles, Elvis, Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, Stevie Ray Vaughn, Django Reinhardt and Robert Johnson, have been named here. I believe James Burton also could not read.

But let's look at what those great players do/did. Claptop, SRV, Hendrix... what was their forte? Their solos, which didn't require reading. Johnson? Blues artist. Nobody needs to read 12 bar blues. Django? Improvisational jazz player. By definition, improv does not call for reading. Would Zappa have been able to churn out 60-ish albums of that complex music had he not been a reader and writer? And would his roster of players been able to remember the structured parts of those songs to play a 3 hour concert without reading. Again, remove the solos from your logic here. The solos are free form, though in some cases, according to Vai, Zappa actually wrote out the solos.

I am talking about a situation where I walk into a rehearsal with a chart for (and again I keep going back to probably my favorite song of all time) MacArthur Park. That is a symphony played in a rock vein. MOST, I won't say "no", but MOST, hobby level players are not going to decode those dischordant horn stabs that are all over the intro and the interludes. The 3rd movement is an extremely intricate set of lines played by the different brass and woodwind players that really have nothing to do with each other. (That movement in symphony is typically called the scherzo, which is a total departure from the rest of the piece, often in a different time setting). The modality of that song would make it extremely difficult for a non reader to play it mainly because there is too much to memorize, particularly because the notes played by the trombone are far from a harmony apart with the trumpet, and you just can't wing it with that song. That kind of song HAS to be read. It really HAS to be. I bought the chart online and even with reading experience my first impression was "What the ****!" It took me a lot of hours of voicing chords to a way a piano can play them rather than an orchestra. And that song just falls apart if it is not performed by an orchestra. Sometimes it comes down to the difference between hearing and listening, and they are two different things. I am sure you have all heard that song many times. Have you ever LISTENED to it?

So reading or not reading is not a dealbreaker. It simply opens up the scope of what people can play. It certainly doesn't make one player better than another. Those of you here who don't read are all likely better players than I am. But it comes back to this. Reading and improvising are a horse and a donkey. Two equine species that look similar but are different.

I really just kind of refer everybody to the Wrecking Crew guys. They were ALL extremely proficient readers. Because of their reading skill they could often do things in one take. Their playing skills are implicit, but that reading skill made them the go to guys. Why pay players scale to do 47 takes when these guys can do it in one or two?

I don't hear any horn stabs at all!!! No trombone. No trumpet. Is the steel charted?

MACARTHUR PARK


You could do this in BIAB.

My first guitar teacher in the late 60's taught me the "old school" way using the Alfred guitar books. So while I was listening to Jimi (my first concert in 1969), Eric, and Carlos, I was learning to read music while playing single note versions of Loch Lomond, Yellow Rose of Texas, and Beautiful, Beautiful Brown Eye. Then one day I actually found a music book of the songs from Jimi Hendrix's first album! I remember being so excited until I got home and started playing from it...sure didn't sound like Hendrix. Of course this was back in the pre-tab days when books like these were usually written by keyboard players who had no idea about bent notes,etc. or the fact that Jimi was tuned down a half step, so most of the songs were written out in Eb and Ab...I still have the book.

However, I've never regretted learning to read, as over the years it helped to open the doors to jazz and classical guitar playing, and a continued love for music theory. Thanks Alfred!

That's funny!

However, then there's this...

That's funny, John. Yes, I've played that MacArthur Park chart. 2nd tpt, not Maynard's part (that's why I'm still alive).

It's silly to consider playing big band charts without reading.

An appropriate story from movie studio music is the time Rassaan Roland Kirk was the soloist in a movie score. Roland Kirk was a monster sax soloist (sometimes playing several members of the sax family at once in his own band). Now, it's understandable that he could not read: he was blind. But after loads of muffed takes, his fellow sax section mate Bud Shank suggested that, if they were all going to ever finish the session, he play the solos.

You'd be surprised how many steel players can read. I don't play steel anymore and the regular score isn't that hard to read. It is the familiarity with the instrument and knowing a little ahead what to play -- still you could get lost in the abundance of possibilities.

I used to read, but can't anymore, i.e. I'm no more fluid in reading, due to a lack of practise when I didn't play for two decades. Instruments played: Accordion, guitar, pedal steel guitar.