PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Gig Prices

Point 2 Karoke Jocks as you describe them, I would rather listen to one who is using backing tracks and can sing, rather than a whole group of musicians where they don't have a decent singer.

As regards feeling sorry for young musicians are you really serious! there is no better time than now for any aspiring musician to learn his craft with all the online tutorials on places such as youtube and others and all the best software around not to mention biab. The best ones will always come through as they have always done, and will make a living from it.

I always find it interesting when you mention (as you always do) musicians put out of work when no doubt there are countless throughout the world using biab backing tracks with your styles, which are excellent by the way.

Musiclover

HTL, don't let Eddie ruin your day. He can be a bit cranky at times.

I looked up Vic Ferrari. They're a casino show group, the same gig I had for about 6 years back in the 70's. The band was Coxon's Army and Pat Benatar was our last girl singer before she made it.

I agree with one comment above, this thread isn't about the one in a thousand Vegas show groups, it's about local weekend warriors. There are some making good money, just not very many that's all.

Bob

Hey Bob, no worries.

The band isn't actually vegas band. They pay there once a year as a trip THEY book. It's pretty crazy how they do it.

Almost all of their jobs are festivals within the state. Just local guys that play in a band. They have day jobs or go to college, kind of thing.

That's pretty wild that Joan Jett was your singer. Talk about stage presence! I bet you have stories galore from playing!!!

I agree that today there is a ton of information and lessons that a aspiring musician can learn from but IMHO the most informative place to learn how to apply these teachings are in a band environment. That opportunity is gone today, at least around here. As I indicated in my original post in this thread back in the 60's-70's there were a lot of places for bands to play in our area but today there are very few. YMMV

This kind of stuck out to me...... can't argue with the luck factor....and getting paid for it? Ummmmmm... they got a word for that ...... not a bad side gig.

Joe's Bar

"Live Band Saturday Night"

Thirty people showed up and spent 40 dollars each. That is $1200 total. Lets say Joe is a super business man and made 50% gross profit. That is $600.

What would be a reasonable amount for Joe to pay a band?

I sometimes play with a local south Florida band in the keys. There are generally 300 to 400 people at one of the gigs. Tips alone are around 200 to 400 dollars. We get paid very well because the club/restaurant makes enough money to afford to have a band. We also play our own original music for the most part. Some covers and most anything that someone request if we think we can play it well.

There are many tourist there, so we are not playing to the same people every time. They are on Holiday and have money to spend.

What they want is to be entertained. We are not in the music business. We are in the entertainment business.

Everyone in the band sings and everyone plays drums, guitar, bass, and keys.

We don't drink at the gig. We come there to work and make money. It is a business.

Are we a really good band? Well, yes we think so. On most nights at least...lol

I think we make better money than many bands because we work harder.

We are also very fortunate because everyone in the band likes one another and supports each other,so there is never any "band drama".

I will say the better paying gigs are corporate gigs.They pay anywhere from $2000 to $5000. They are a ton of work to get and to play. Many times requiring learning certain cover songs we don't know.

I think it will only take another 10 or 15 years for us to get good enough to compete with the big guys. If we are lucky...

If you want to make music be a music man. If you want to make money be a business man.

No one ever said it would be easy!!

Not Joan Jett, it was Pat Benatar. Our other singer who made it was Marlene Ricci. Long story, she wound up in Vegas in the 80's doing a show for years at Caesar's with Sinatra.
Ever hear about the book called 20 Feet From Stardom? That was me too. Close but no cigar...

After all that I was an agent for years and kept gigging right up to a few weeks ago and have more coming up. Never got back to that level though.

Bob

Excellent article. Great insights and an explanation of the reality involved.

"I sometimes play with a local south Florida band in the keys. There are generally 300 to 400 people at one of the gigs. Tips alone are around 200 to 400 dollars. We get paid very well because the club/restaurant makes enough money to afford to have a band. We also play our own original music for the most part. Some covers and most anything that someone request if we think we can play it well."



Where in the Keys are you playing original music?



Regards,


Bob

Dunno about the book but the documentary was spectacular. Janice and I were never close to or aspired to stardom but we shared the stage with some of the best.

Bud

Just thought I'd twist the topic by saying, "Good luck getting churches to pay musicians". I simply don't do it for free anymore. For far too long my wife and I were 1/3 of the church service. Not to mention preparing, rehearsal, learning new songs, organizing teams. It's far more valuable that free. I'll jump in as a guitar player on short notice as long as there is no mid-week rehearsal and the team leader is good and organized. Oh, I certainly enjoy it. But, 8 - 12 hours of dedication every week to be the worship team leader for free is no longer for me. I'm sure there are lots of people willing to do it though.

My, My, My.... yeah!

I think I may have told the story about why I quit/got fired..... depending on who you listen to, from playing in the church orchestra.

All volunteer musicians..... paid music minister. We took from our time to support the church music on Sunday mornings by being there before anyone else got there on Sunday morning and also Wed night rehearsals.

The MM was always throwing these "special musical events" into the normal mix. I guess he thought he needed to "earn his keep". He came up with some music that didn't require guitar....at all. It was only a few weeks away from the date of performance, and we hadn't hit the music at all. With 5 minutes or so remaining in the Wed night rehearsal, he says pull out the sheet music.... slaps the CD in the machine and plays the first 20 seconds of a song. Then he says lets start at measure 30 or so..... total train wreck. repeat that again with a different song, and called it a night. Same story the next week. So to this point, all I had done was sit quietly and listen. Third week... same thing. So Knowing what was coming and having heard the music and knowing a guitar was not needed at all in that style.... I very quietly packed my gear, shut the amp off and left the stage by the side.

I was headed up the center aisle when the MM stopped the orchestra, and turned to me and said.... for the entire orchestra and about 25 or so folks in the back of the auditorium, "Herb, you think you're too good to play this music ...don't you? Not believing I heard what I thought I heard, I turned and simply asked him to call me the next day and we could talk. he repeated it and started to say a few other things. Not wanting a conflict in front of all those folks, I turned and walked up the aisle and out to my truck and went home.

I got an email telling me not to show up on Sunday until "we have a chance to talk".

At the meeting the following week, in the company of both the MM and the pastor, I was handed a list of conditions I was asked to read and sign off on in order to continue with the music program. As I finished the list, I asked if he (the MM) had handed this same list to the rest of the musicians and told them they also had to comply with the requirements. Deer in the headlights. He said no he hadn't. I slid the list back across the table to him and told him I would not sign it. I was a volunteer and was willing to provide my services without any conditions.

The meeting ended with no resolution. He tried to ease off the harsh restrictions a bit but not totally. I declined. He was not willing to take my services as a volunteer without me abiding by his list. So he told me I could come back if I would follow his list. That was the last time I went to that church. Sadly, this story is not a one time event. You are expected to spend lots of time for the program to which you are offering your time and talents for free. Fired? Quit? perhaps both.



OK.... I'm done.

Doing residential gigs and getting 80.00 gbp an hour .

And its Monday to Friday school hours.

best

Yes, I still feel sorry for younger musicians.

Yes there are more resources to teach you how to play.

But there are fewer places where you can gig and more musicians/karaoke jocks/DJs/Sports Bars, etc. filling those positions.

When I was growing up every hotel from a Holiday Inn on up had 6 or 7 nights per week of live music. Weddings, parties, school dances, and almost everything else was live too. If you played recordings, the party was considered "less than". Singles clubs, adult bars, of any worth all had live bands -- the only bars with TVs as the entertainment were corner taverns consisting of a barkeep and a dozen bar stools, and none had DJs.

Yes the Internet is a great teacher -- but -- As far as instruction is concerned, we taught each other.

I remember one of my early gigs. I was fresh out of High School, playing in Lenny's Lounge in Fort Lauderdale FL.

There were two bands, the black band and the white band. We took turns, when it came break time whoever was on stage started the break song, the other band members came out and as they picked up their instrument, the corresponding player in the other band left the stage.

Me? I walked across the stage and played with the black band. The sax player and I used to have fun together. He'd lead off and I'd try to follow the best I could.

Before the gig we all spent time in the back room. The black sax man (I wish I could remember his name) taught me so many of the things about playing Blues and Rock that the schools didn't teach. Like how to use your throat and vocal cords to get and regulate distortion, when to scoop up to notes from flat to pitch for effect, when to over-blow the horn, how to change mouth shapes to influence the tone and the vowel sound, how to play without breath support and a weak embouchure to get sub-tones, and more. He was a grey haired old guy and used to say, "I am the past, and you are the future" and told me that one day I'd be doing the same thing to some younger musician.

I wouldn't have traded that for a zillion internet lessons. As time went on and we gigged in other places, I shared info with other musicians. We were everywhere, and although some kept their secrets to themselves, most of us shared.

I was taught guitar and bass by guitarists and bassists, never had a formal lesson in either and I got good enough to play bass for Freddie Boom Boom Cannon for a short series of concerts.

I've passed on things I've learned to other sax players, and even taught a trumpet player how to play sax. He's quite good now.

Another beginner I took under my wing has played in New Orleans Jazz Fest a few years in a row. She moved to NOLA and continued to blossom.

It's what we did when there were working musicians everywhere. We passed on the tradition to the youngsters. We didn't do formal lessons, didn't take money, just shared.

Things are different now, and I just roll with the changes. Some things are better now, and I miss other things. It's just the way it is.

I started playing professionally in 1964, and other than two 'straight jobs' where I investigated what being normal was like, I've made a living playing music. Even in those two bouts of doing day gigs (neither lasted that long) I played music on the weekends. Since 1964 I've missed only one gig, I was in the hospital with food poisoning and they wouldn't let me out. I've played with big stars, recorded at Motown and other studios, partied with headliners and was treated as a peer, felt comfortable on stages with thousands in the audience, and even though I'm of retirement age, I have no plans to quit what I'm doing, because it's what I love to do.

And yes, we are playing for the same money as we did years ago, but it's a game of supply and demand, and I have to go with the flow. Still we get more than most duos, because of our reputation and because we do a good job. True we've lost some gigs to DJs and KJocks who undercut us but we've also gotten gigs where people say "Wow! You actually play your own instruments!"

Things change, accountants are replaced by TurboTax, the post office is hurt by e-mail, newspapers and magazines have taken a hit by the Internet, small restaurants put out of business by big chains, and so on.

Things change, some adapt and survive, some don't, and that's the way it has always been. Nobody sells cranks for Model T Fords anymore.

Live music is a state of decline, which is why I think I'm lucky to be born when I did so I could ride it at its peak.

Insights and incites by Notes

Lorelei Cabana Bar and Restaurant Islamorada, FL ( big outdoor venue...very small stage...lol)
Post Card Inn Islamorada, FL....more classic rock here
Boca Raton Resort & Club- PRIVATE CLUB (not in the keys)

I started playing for money in high school. $5 for a 3 hr. dance in '58. Pizza and a coke and $2 left over.
First union job I got was as a sideman, I remember it well, it was hollowen night in a dive bar where motorcycle gangs hung out. I don't remember how much I made, maybe $40. I do remember is that I was thankful I got out of there alive!
I began teaching school in 1964 and was playing weekends. One midweek we played happy hour for 3 evenings at the Fairmont in SF. and for the first and only time I made more than playing my school salary for that month.

In the mid 60's making $75 a night on weekends. I was making more than my wife's 40 hr. a week office job so she was able to stay home with the kids.

Bob, as far as learning from other musicians, I learned Portugese songs from a trumpet player while on the bandstand. He would play his chorus and I would learn. He then would sing it to me as I played my chorus.

Learned the Chicken Dance the same way but with a beautiful Swedish young woman singing not my ear while I was playing!!

Got to run, gigging in an hour.

When I hear someone say play 'the chicken' I think of this first
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgntkGc5iBo

jaco, erskine, brecker ..

Now that's good music!

Notes, my main observation is that these days, music teachers are typically local musicians who have no day job, and they teach SONGS, not music. Not the way to learn, in my opinion. Learn music. Scales, key signatures... THEN learn how to finger tap and play those awful Van Halen solos that had no message and were just an exercise to see how many notes he could fit into his 32 bars.

My first gig was when I was 15 at a teen center. 4 piece band, good amount of Beatles and Stones type music, whatever was popular in 1966. When we finished, the rhythm player's mother, who was our "manager" told us we earned $25 for the night. And when she had a chance to make change, we'd get our share of that $25. So my first gig paid $6.25.

Luckily, no agent fee....

And it's been downhill ever since