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I still don't get why he didn't just go for a "What VSTi would you recommend/use?" kind of post  OK, if you want the most realistic classical music sounds then be prepared to spend a lot of money! The best stuff cost the most. Indeed...but, having said that, here are some pretty decent freebies  My (current) personal favourite "Classical Instruments": http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=189694And loads more, of very varied qualities, are mentioned here: http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=387004&page=1
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
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Dont want to hijack this thread but I have been playing around with midi quite a bit lately and trying all sorts of things to try and make the midi tracks sound more authentic. This has included "randomizing" the midi tracks in BIAB, using volume automation and also messing about with formants and timing in Melodyne. I would love to know, honestly, what you think of this version of the public domain jazz song Blue Skies. It was made using midi tracks and Dimension Pro for the saxes and realtracks for the drums, guitar, bass and piano. https://soundcloud.com/joannecoopersa/blue-skies
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Hi Jo
One comment is that I think the unison's for the Saxes are too tight. Is it the same MIDI data used for more than one Sax, or is that the actual sound from the VSTi?
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Is it the same MIDI data used for more than one Sax, or is that the actual sound from the VSTi? Or the whole sax section on the same channel, is that what you're getting at?
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
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I try not to be a party spoiler but I have to be here. Those saxes are straight MIDI being played on a keyboard. By straight I mean no variation in volume or timbre. IMHO to get a monophonic instrument like a sax, trumpet, etc to sound more realistic you must use either a breath controller or a wind controller. Variations in breath equals variations in volume and with a good sound source timbre also. Also with a wind controller you can control vibrato very easily.
Garritan products use the mod wheel to emulate volume and timbre. However I find it awkward to use but to tell the truth I didn't spend much time with it. I went straight to my wind controller. YMMV
If you want more info and/or MP3s of what I mean just PM me.
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It's called the Heineken Maneuver.
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Or the whole sax section on the same channel, is that what you're getting at? Yes, more-or-less. Maybe not on the same channel, but I wonder was there a single Sax track that has been duplicated meaning that multiple instruments play exactly the same (i.e. cloned copies).
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I used the Biab "harmony" function to generate the second sax part and put them on two different tracks so they got different processing. I applied different dimension pro selections to the two saxes. I also put some volume automation on both saxes, used the midi "randomize" function (but only about 10%... so maybe too little) and then also used melodyne to generate variations... seperately on each track. I will try and put some more hefty variations on them. Mario, no need to worry about being a spoiler. The constructive criticism is exactly what I wanted  since I don't play the instrument it is difficult for me to know what sound authentic. What would you recommend for breath or wind controller?
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Those saxes are straight MIDI being played on a keyboard. By straight I mean no variation in volume or timbre. Yes, that's the item I immediately identified. There are no subtle differences in the shade or expression in the sound, which would normally be caused by the variation that different players would contribute, and especially the effect of color added by how the instrument was played (i.e. breath). I'm not familiar with playing wind instruments. I know that Mario does use a breath controller though.
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Joanne,
I really like your sax section demo. Very musical and enjoyable to listen to. And very nice harmonies.
If someone has good demos with breath controllers, please post them. My experience with breath controllers has been very disappointing, both in trying them myself, and listening to other demos. Most demos I've heard have bad timing, and maybe it's because of the latency and variability in timing of converting the breath to midi notes. The same issue exists with MIDI guitar - very bad timing in most live performances, with unacceptable musical results. So I've stopped believing hype about breath controllers, and just want to hear some nice music from them. I'm talking about a demo that you made yourself, playing s regular song, live, not a link to some professional demo somewhere.
For example, Joanne's demo was very tight, nice timing and rhythm. Let's hear that with breath controllers, in a demo that you made yourself.
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.
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Thank Peter. I appreciate your comments. I did a bit of research on wind and breath controllers and I don't think they are for me. Mainly because I don't have the time to learn to play another instrument (I am battling enough to learn to play the guitar!). I found some software and applied it to the Midi melody and harmony (generated by BIAB). So here is version 2 for you. https://soundcloud.com/joannecoopersa/blue-skies-version-2Would love to know if you can hear any difference from version one and if it is better or worse!
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Version 2. Wow. Significant improvement. You have managed to definitely add color and realism Joanne. This is streets ahead of the original in my view. I went and listened to the same passages from each, several times. The difference is very noticeable. The first sounded quite 'flat' by comparison, while the new arrangement has 'life'. Great effort. You're on the way, for sure.
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The job of making MIDI sound like another instrument is only part tone. The majority of the job is to emulate the nuances of the instrument you are portraying.When you hear a comedian 'doing' a famous person, does the comedian have an identical voice? Impossible. But what they do have is an ability to hear and reproduce the nuances of the famous person's speech. So you hear Palin, Trump, Clinton or whoever the impressionist has studied and can emulate. MIDI musicians must do the same thing with any instrument we emulate. You don't have to have identical tone -- you need good emulation. This starts with understanding the physical limitations and advantages of the instrument you are emulating. For example of the physical: A glissando on a trumpet sounds nothing like a slide on a guitar, even though they are basically the same thing. There are plenty of others, pianos don't bend notes, guitars usually vibrato from pitch to above pitch and back unless using a whammy bar, etc. Then the listening comes in. Sax players often scoop up to notes, delay vibrato and change both speed and intensity. We sometimes do some throat growl of flutter tongue. We do sub-tones and overblow, and sometimes even change our mouth shape to get different 'vowel' like tones out of the horn. Every instrument has its own way of expressing itself. Charlie Parker is quoted, "You don't pay the sax, you let the sax play you." Same goes for every instrument. What will the physical instrument do? Exploit it. Keep this in mind when you are emulating that instrument. Exploit the similar things your MIDI instrument can emulate, and don't do things that the MIDI instrument does. Here is an example of a MIDI sax. Keep in mind a few things:1) It was recorded on the job over 15 years ago using the internal mic of a portable mp3 "juke box" hanging out a few feet away from a PA speaker 2) It was recorded in a low 56kbps mp3 format because the memory was so limited in order to get a whole set on the drive, low bitrate was necessary So the tone of everything is rather tinny. The idea is not to listen to the tone, but the way the nuances of sax playing are reproduced.The background is close to 100% Band-in-a-Box and at the time probably through a hardware Roland SC55 Sound Canvas. It was a good sound module in its day but there are much better out there. I still use it for some sounds though. The sax uses wind for volume, and pitch bend for all vibrato and other pitch effects. There are places where the sax plays with and varies from pitch (mostly but not exclusively sharp on some high notes for emphasis). I do this for expression. Vocalists do this and I want to put vox humana in all my solos. Again, these are some of the nuances. The MIDI controller is a Yamaha WX5 and the synth is a Yamaha VL70m. The patch number was 68 making it a General MIDI sax. (I changed patch numbers since then when I got a footswitch for changing patches. I put them in more logical banks for quick switching of instruments.) All the instruments except for Leilani's voice are MIDI. Leilani's voice and the entire performance sounds much richer live, but the combination of the tinny mic and low bitrate thinned it out.
But that's a good thing, because even with lousy tone, it still sounds like a saxophone. This demonstrates that it's more about expression than tone.Link: Sax emulation on the gig Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Notes, Very cool. You should enter that in the MIDI Contest .
BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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If someone has good demos with breath controllers, please post them. Coincidentally I did share a song into the Showcase forum that contains a pretty good usage of an EWI (electric wind instrument). It's not done by myself, but I think (despite perhaps not the greatest sound source used, since I had to use something on my end after being sent the performance in midi) it illustrates quite well what such a thing is capable of if you know how to utilise its potentials. Just the trills and slurs would be beyond anything I could possibly produce from a keyboard. Since this was longer ago than I even realised, the direct sc link is HERE. Oh, and for Joanne: One thing you need to be aware of, as has been mentioned in another comment, is the "characteristics" of the instrument you're attempting to emulate. And the one thing that broke the "illusion" for me was in the overextended phrases - Sax players breathe! 
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
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Thank Peter. I appreciate your comments. I did a bit of research on wind and breath controllers and I don't think they are for me. Mainly because I don't have the time to learn to play another instrument (I am battling enough to learn to play the guitar!). I found some software and applied it to the Midi melody and harmony (generated by BIAB). So here is version 2 for you. https://soundcloud.com/joannecoopersa/blue-skies-version-2Would love to know if you can hear any difference from version one and if it is better or worse! Joanne, there is a big difference between a breath controller and a wind controller. A wind controller, like my AKAI USB, http://www.akaipro.com/product/ewiusbis a new instrument that you would have to learn. A breath controller like this TEC, http://tecontrol.se/products/usb-midi-breath-controlleris a USB input controller for breath only, no other effects like vibrato. You would pick a sound like the sax, play a line on your piano MIDI controller while breathing into the breath controller. The breath controller will work with CC2, another volume controller, and you can control attacks, swells, fad outs etc via your controller. No learning another instrument. I hope this helps. {edit} - Joanne you have a PM
Last edited by MarioD; 04/25/17 01:38 PM.
Whenever I get something stuck in the back of my throat, I dislodge it by drinking a beer.
It's called the Heineken Maneuver.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Ver 2 is better than the original. Easily noticed by playing a bit of 1 and then 2 as a comparison.
Nice job improving it.
That said, to me the saxes don't 'fit in' the mix in either version. That's a whole 'nother aspect with MIDI. You have to really work to balance various sound sources .. and then the patches themselves.
Sorry, just trying to help and its only my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt. Nobody else noticed or mentioned it, so maybe it's just me.
Getting the saxes to 'sit' in the mix would be what I focused on next.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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The thing we all have to remember, it's not about sound, it's about emulation of the characteristics of the instrument we are portraying and it's about delivering an expressive performance.
Learning MIDI is like learning another instrument, it takes time, practice and dedication to improvement.
Listen intently to the instrument you are trying to emulate. Not just to the tone, not just to the melody, as these are of minor importance.
Listen to the subtle nuances, the pitch variations in both degree and speed, the dynamic variations, the variations in tonal color, both attack and release timing variations, ornaments used, phrasing (includes breathing and rushing parts of the phrase and dragging others), and so on. Then figure out how to use them with your synth. These are the things that create a convincing emulation.
To help your listening, think about the physical characteristics of the instrument you are portraying - guitars bend pitch from in tune to sharp when using finger vibrato, wind instruments need to find places to breathe (usually after longer notes), guitar chords don't play all the notes at the same time and often start a little ahead of the beat, guitars make use of hammer-ons and pull-offs, saxes use their lip for pitch bend intentionally (not like a LFO), trombonists use the slide for expression, drummers hit in different places on the head for different sounds, in a single stroke roll one hand of the drummer is stronger than the other, and so on and on and on. The physical characteristics of the instrument can help your analytical listening.
If you are going to play saxophones, guitars, trumpets, harmonicas, accordions, etc., like you are playing a piano, you aren't going to do a good emulation even if you are using a synth with 100% perfect tone. The 'holy grail' is in the details, not the tone.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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The thing we all have to remember, it's not about sound, it's about emulation of the characteristics of the instrument we are portraying and it's about delivering an expressive performance. Hear ye, hear ye! I purchased a MIDI sound device (OK, lots), I can't remember which brand, maybe it was Roland or Yamaha. Not important. It had a built in "MIDI demo" of what it could deliver. I played it in the store. Wow. You'd have reckoned you were at a live concert. Do you think I could repeat that performance using a keyboard for input? You're right. Not a chance. A massive effort, far beyond what a keyboard could deliver went, must have gone into producing that orchestration. It was all about the expressive performance. Real players provide that expressive performance with a real instrument and their own learned skills, and if you want to do it with MIDI, it can be done, but you need the tools and the learned skills to achieve it also. My 2c.
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Yes, and it also depends on whether you just used a keyboard or a wind controller to create the MIDI sax sound. And before someone notes "He's thinking classical, like Mozart, Beethoven et al", then I'll just observe that the same very much applies to oboes! I actually have a strong feeling that this whole idea came about because the OP was simply looking for ideas on what are decent VTSi choices for classical music - but why he didn't just ask that question in a post, instead of this poorly thought out "competition"...I don't know At any rate, this "for fun" thread seems to have gone quite sour pretty fast. No, I was not asking for virtual instruments for classical music, but that is someone I would like, if I have the time and money to put the effort into using them. I just wanted see what people could do with their virtual instruments.
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If the OP wanted a VST shoot-out, he worded the post wrong. Been there, done that myself.
It's difficult sometimes when not getting immediate feedback to get your point across, as there is no one with a confused face to immediately mean, "What do you mean by that?" or some other clarifying question.
Me? I've tried a few VSTs and don't really like any of them as much as my hardware. But I suppose in time and as computers get even more powerful they will improve to the point where they equal dedicated modules.
So the way the original post is worded, it seems like a MIDI challenge in title and a VST challenge in the post itself.
So I ask: "What did you mean by that?"
Insights and incites by Notes Norton, I really should have called a VST challange, as was looking to see what you could do with your VSTs. I did not a specific genre because that did not matter to me. The reason I chose the instruments I did was becaise I knew that those would be the hardest to recreate. When I ased for there to be no eq, compression or effects, I was reffering to an addition processing.
Computer: Macbook Pro, 16 inch 2021
DAWs: Pro Tools, Logic, and Maschine
plays drums, percussion, bass, steel pan, keyboard,
music producer/engineer
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