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Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 8
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Hello Everyone -
My intention is to:
Use midi song files prepared in advance by muting the Drum & Bass tracks, to play live, using the midi file string & horn arrangements to fill out the sound of the ensemble [this is an example].
In my perfect world scenario:
1. The drummer establishes (taps) the tempo for the live performance directly into the Yamaha DTX Multi-12.
HOW CAN THIS BE DONE??
2. A click is generated and fed into a separate output (to headphones). HOW CAN THIS BE DONE??
NOTE: I am not interested in playing or controlling loops.
THANK YOU for your help!
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Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,382
PG Music Staff
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PG Music Staff
Joined: Nov 2008
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Hi Robert, I explained how to route the metronome/click track to a separate device in this thread: http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=479488&Searchpage=1&Main=69537&Words=metronome&Search=true#Post479488Regarding tempo, Band-in-a-Box will always act as the master, and can't be slaved to an external MIDI clock. RealBand can follow an external clock if you need it to, by going to Options - Sync Source, and selecting MIDI Sync, and selecting the clock source as your MIDI Input Driver, but since RealTracks sound best at their original tempo, I'd recommend just using Band-in-a-Box and letting the songs play in the tempo they were recorded in. Thanks Kent PG Music
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Welcome to the forum Robert.  I'm not trying to derail your question. I'm just really curious what are you trying to achieve by using midi for this? If I understand you correctly (and I may not be) are you looking for BIAB to follow the drummer for each song, or section? I just ask because I'm not sure where technology is it for uses like this. I used to be a drummer in two different bands that used backing tracks, however, we followed the tracks. The tracks following us had been brought up; but we never overly attempted it. That was 25 years ago though. I'm curious you goals and if anyone will be able to help. Best of luck either way.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
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Joined: Mar 2011
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Thank You Kent, for your fast and detailed reply.
In actual practice, I don't expect a lot of variation in the tempo (we've all been at this a long, long time) - the whole attraction is to be able to have a much more natural feel using this technology.
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Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
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Hello HearToLearn -
I too have been at this a for long time - many years ago even playing live to pre-recorded cassette tapes, as the WHO did in the early 1970s - in a very loud arena-rock setting. YEOW
Today, I have a quartet that wants to have the sonic embellishments of studio recording available for live performance. Guitar, Keyboard, Bass & Drums.
We would benefit from having strings (for example), filling out a given orchestration to beyond the number of musicians fingers available at any critical moment.
I prefer doing the count-ins live as do my colleagues. In any case the performance tempo would not vary greatly from the original, so it is only to provide a more natural feel for the others.
I hope I've answered your questions!
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Robert, awesome. Thanks for the response. Very interesting...I can't even imagine back in the day with cassettes. Wow!
Let us know how things proceed if you wouldn't mind. It's great to hear boundaries being pushed.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
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Cassettes? Most of the time they worked pretty well - although there were some times where the people running the sound systems were confused about what we were doing. The hardest part was having a large set of headphones pretty much duct taped to my head!
Thanks for your interest - although I must admit, it distresses me a bit to hear that I am 'pushing the boundaries'. I would have hoped that this concept would be well developed and mature, and that I am just using something that is readily understood and available.
All the more reason that I need the forum!
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Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
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I think you can accomplish your goal but not exactly as you've presented it here. Kent is correct that BIAB tracks will follow the tempo map of the BIAB project song. However, BIAB generated tracks follow that tempo map whether it is an accurate and steady beat per bar or if it varies per bar. So you will need a tempo map recorded as a live performance without following an exact click track.
I import a lot of prerecorded songs that were recorded without a click track and vary throughout the song, speeding up in areas and slowing. I create a tempo map that follows this 'live' recorded audio and then generate BIAB backing tracks that follow that tempo map and the generated tracks speed and slow along with the original music track.
As an experiment based on your post, I imported a raw audio track I have on hand of a gentleman playing guitar and singing a song out by his pool. The timing the song if fairly inaccurate drifting a bit throughout the song.
I opened his song in RealBand which has a feature to manually create a click track as the song plays. I created a click track and exported that audio. I'm not a drummer but in my opinion, it will be nearly impossible to follow just a click track that follows an erratic and varying tempo map. There's no cue to alert you of the variations.
What I think will work for your quartet that wants to have the sonic embellishments of studio recording available for live performance is to have one of the prerecorded instruments, Guitar or Keyboard play live throughout the live performance and the band follow the tempo of that instrument rather than a click track. The instrument that's recorded in the studio will have an average tempo, for example 122, that can be used to sync the band with the instrument and an 8 beat count in to the drummer will give the drummer a four count in ears/monitor for a 4 count live count in to the band.
I've done this with recordings many times in both directions, BiAB tracks for live playing and syncing live recordings with BIAB tracks but have never attempted it live on stage but see no reason it will not work. The key to successfully doing what you want is in creating a live recording that does not follow a click but is a natural, flowing performance. A BIAB generated rhythm guitar playing as a 'live' player throughout the song for the band to follow is a good example how to accomplish what you want to do. Think of the track as being a guest guitarist sitting in with the band at one of your shows. It's the same concept.
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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So - It appears that the way forward would be to:
1. Prepare the mixes of each song (with Bass & Drums removed) and save them as MP3s (or some other agreeable non-midi format).
2. Trigger the MP3s through the Yamaha Multi-12, with the click generated via midi (and sent to headphones).
The next question then, is this: If I design MP3s to be triggered in this manner, can they be slightly stretched or compacted without varying the pitch?
Any thoughts?
Thanks Everyone!
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If the Yamaha Multi-12 is triggered using the original tempo map used to create the BIAB generated audio tracks, these tracks will have been generated so that no stretching or compacting is necessary. They generate with the tempo variations when they render.
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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According to the +++ Yamaha DTX-Multi12 product page +++ the unit can be programmed to use the high hat foot switch port for tap tempo input. The unit has a MIDI OUT, USB TO DEVICE and USB TO HOST digital output ports. Perhaps a click track can be output through one of those ports but I doubt it. The product page presents the unit as a drum accessory, something that can be used to add instrument sounds to the drummer's kit. Since that is how Yamaha presents the device I doubt if Yamaha expects for the device to output a click track or a sync signal.
Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (Build 1128) RB (Build 5) - Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk Sonar - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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Thanks for your interest - although I must admit, it distresses me a bit to hear that I am 'pushing the boundaries'. I would have hoped that this concept would be well developed and mature, and that I am just using something that is readily understood and available.
Oh, don't let my comments distress you. I've been out of the game for a while. With the speed at which things are changing, if you are out of it at all; you are REALLY out of it. What you are looking to do; be very well be available. The closest I came to what you are talking about was triggering intro, verse, chorus, bridge and endings to songs from an octapad back in the day. Some songs had breakdown sections IF needed. It actually worked pretty well, and gave us some options when playing live that a straight up track wouldn't have. Some of the crowd participation songs especially worked well with that set up; so we could extend call and response areas if need be. Not exactly what you are looking to do though...and I get that. I will be really curious if you get it worked out. It would be awesome if you do. Sounds to me like you are really trying to have the computer act as other real players for the most part. That would be awesome!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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