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Re: Mixing: USING A REFERENCE TRACK floyd jane #479890 06/29/18 06:26 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,296 Midwest HearToLearn Veteran
HearToLearn Veteran Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,296 Midwest	Tobias, not only do I think it's on topic, I also feel it could be taken a step further. FJ has posted some vocal only video/audios of the actual recordings. There are MANY of these. It might be really useful to use those as additional reference track. BTW, they have them for many instruments as well. Great thread. Chad (Hope that makes it easier) TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.

Re: Mixing: USING A REFERENCE TRACK HearToLearn #479910 06/29/18 07:35 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 8,327 North Carolina David Snyder Veteran
David Snyder Veteran Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 8,327 North Carolina	This reference track thing cuts both ways though. I have a tool in IK Multimedia called "MasterMatch" that will analyze a reference and then give you a starting point for comparison before you begin to "turn the knobs" so to speak. I have found (and this may tie back to what Jim said earlier about CDs though) that in some cases I am not all that fond of the reference track though I remember liking it at some point in the past. Has anyone ever had the experience of listening to a reference track and saying "I can do better than that"? Maybe WAY off topic, I don't know. Here is an example, from Glen Campbell's last album, the title track Ghost on the Canvas. I loved the song, but it was mixed WAY too hot for my personal tastes--and over-compressed. I guess what I am saying is the more you study and investigate the more you learn all around. I thought David Cuny's last post was a study in a great mix. Man you could hear EVERYTHING on that one. Attached Files (Click to download or enlarge) (Only available when you are logged in) Ghost on the Canvas.png (53.82 KB, 105 downloads) David Snyder Songwriter/Renaissance Man Studio + Fingers https://davidsnydersongs.com/ https://spoti.fi/359Gigs www.davidsnydermusic.com/ www.reverbnation.com/davidpsnyder www.soundcloud.com/davidsnyderchannel https://www.songtradr.com/user/profile/david.snyder

Re: Mixing: USING A REFERENCE TRACK floyd jane #479952 06/29/18 10:52 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 12,422 Florida floyd jane OP Veteran
OP floyd jane Veteran Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 12,422 Florida	A Reference Track - by definition - should be something you do like and a sound that you do want to emulate...(or, really, a "balance of instruments") Don't ya think? 150+ Songs produced using BIAB RealTracks And 50 more... and some more...

Re: Mixing: USING A REFERENCE TRACK floyd jane #479956 06/29/18 11:03 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,296 Midwest HearToLearn Veteran
HearToLearn Veteran Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 2,296 Midwest	Originally Posted By: floyd jane A Reference Track - by definition - should be something you do like and a sound that you do want to emulate...(or, really, a "balance of instruments") Don't ya think? I would tend to agree. Quote: "We use reference tracks of what we don't like and try to steer clear of whatever that is." -Spinal Tap (Not an actual quote) Last edited by HearToLearn; 06/29/18 11:03 AM. Chad (Hope that makes it easier) TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.

Re: Mixing: USING A REFERENCE TRACK floyd jane #479957 06/29/18 11:04 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: May 2017 Posts: 1,685 beatmaster Expert
beatmaster Expert Joined: May 2017 Posts: 1,685	Some excellent tips and advice, I most of the time if not all of the time do a wee pan on the bass and drums. Yes I know all the bumf about this and that on panning, the you should never dos. But it stops the muddy centre belt that can happen, by the way I'm only talking about 5- 10 percent left drums, same right bass. There is no correct way or we would never have the historical path that is music today. Now what song was it the drummer used the fridge instead of drums. A cardboard box instead of drums. Last edited by beatmaster; 06/29/18 11:09 AM. win 10 64 bit 16gb,i7 chip, ssd 500gb, m-audio air, ,Roland BK-7M, 1000,shure sm7b,sonar,acid,mixcraft, variety of plugins.Sample tank 3,Kontakt. TC Helicon Voicelive 3 2 . https://beatmaster1.bandcamp.com/releases

Re: Mixing: USING A REFERENCE TRACK floyd jane #479979 06/29/18 12:31 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 8,327 North Carolina David Snyder Veteran
David Snyder Veteran Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 8,327 North Carolina	Floyd and HTL, The point I am trying to make is that SOMETIMES I have gone to grab a reference track I THOUGHT would be perfect then learned something about what I didn't want to do. Funny how learning works when you keep your minds and ears open to unexpected observations and ideas, huh? Enjoy those pitted olives, remember D minor is the saddest of all keys and say a prayer for Stumpy Joe boys. David Snyder Songwriter/Renaissance Man Studio + Fingers https://davidsnydersongs.com/ https://spoti.fi/359Gigs www.davidsnydermusic.com/ www.reverbnation.com/davidpsnyder www.soundcloud.com/davidsnyderchannel https://www.songtradr.com/user/profile/david.snyder

Re: Mixing: USING A REFERENCE TRACK beatmaster #479980 06/29/18 12:34 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 8,327 North Carolina David Snyder Veteran
David Snyder Veteran Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 8,327 North Carolina	Beatmaster, Led Zeppelin, if there was also an amp in a cardboard box and a car in the pool. David Snyder Songwriter/Renaissance Man Studio + Fingers https://davidsnydersongs.com/ https://spoti.fi/359Gigs www.davidsnydermusic.com/ www.reverbnation.com/davidpsnyder www.soundcloud.com/davidsnyderchannel https://www.songtradr.com/user/profile/david.snyder

Re: Mixing: USING A REFERENCE TRACK floyd jane #479982 06/29/18 12:43 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: May 2017 Posts: 1,685 beatmaster Expert
beatmaster Expert Joined: May 2017 Posts: 1,685	Yep you got where I'm coming from, do your thing no matter what or we would not have our history of rock we are so proud of today amen. win 10 64 bit 16gb,i7 chip, ssd 500gb, m-audio air, ,Roland BK-7M, 1000,shure sm7b,sonar,acid,mixcraft, variety of plugins.Sample tank 3,Kontakt. TC Helicon Voicelive 3 2 . https://beatmaster1.bandcamp.com/releases

Re: Mixing: USING A REFERENCE TRACK floyd jane #479985 06/29/18 12:59 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: May 2017 Posts: 1,685 beatmaster Expert
beatmaster Expert Joined: May 2017 Posts: 1,685	David Snyder quote I was shocked when I recently re-listened to Carolina in My Mind by James Taylor and realized it is mostly bass and drums and very faint guitar. In my memory it was all guitar. Guess my memory was off! That's the way good song writing/producing/lyrics/vocals all mixed in to one stereo track should do to all who listen. I found out that fact by listening ..Instead of commenting. Last edited by beatmaster; 06/29/18 01:00 PM. win 10 64 bit 16gb,i7 chip, ssd 500gb, m-audio air, ,Roland BK-7M, 1000,shure sm7b,sonar,acid,mixcraft, variety of plugins.Sample tank 3,Kontakt. TC Helicon Voicelive 3 2 . https://beatmaster1.bandcamp.com/releases

Re: Mixing: USING A REFERENCE TRACK beatmaster #479989 06/29/18 01:16 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 8,327 North Carolina David Snyder Veteran
David Snyder Veteran Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 8,327 North Carolina	Beat, Yeah this will be my last one and then I will shut up because I know I am off topic, but it is funny that we sit around sometimes talking about very delicate changes on dials when Jimmy Page was stuffing a mic into a tin can and then putting the tin can and the amp into a box and running the whole thing to a speaker in a nearby bathroom while being totally toasted the entire time. And we go "is there a free VST plug-in for that?" Should I do a low shelf on my Waves compressor?? Ha ha ha. Oh, well. Back to the factory!!!!! Over and out! David Snyder Songwriter/Renaissance Man Studio + Fingers https://davidsnydersongs.com/ https://spoti.fi/359Gigs www.davidsnydermusic.com/ www.reverbnation.com/davidpsnyder www.soundcloud.com/davidsnyderchannel https://www.songtradr.com/user/profile/david.snyder

Re: Mixing: USING A REFERENCE TRACK floyd jane #479990 06/29/18 01:19 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: May 2017 Posts: 1,685 beatmaster Expert
beatmaster Expert Joined: May 2017 Posts: 1,685	EXACTLY. No comment. win 10 64 bit 16gb,i7 chip, ssd 500gb, m-audio air, ,Roland BK-7M, 1000,shure sm7b,sonar,acid,mixcraft, variety of plugins.Sample tank 3,Kontakt. TC Helicon Voicelive 3 2 . https://beatmaster1.bandcamp.com/releases

Re: Mixing: USING A REFERENCE TRACK beatmaster #479991 06/29/18 01:22 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 22,158 Mi., USA rharv Veteran
rharv Veteran Joined: May 2000 Posts: 22,158 Mi., USA	Originally Posted By: beatmaster There is no correct way or we would never have the historical path that is music today. Now what song was it the drummer used the fridge instead of drums. A cardboard box instead of drums. Granted; for some creative mixes there may not be an example. As a polar example to your cardboard box drums there's Tropea's Muff, with Rick Marotta in left channel and Steve Gadd in right. It's a pretty All-Star band for the day. If it works it works! For the first 50 seconds you'd think this was 1 drummer (with some panning effects) .. but around :45 you can hear them start to play off each other and vary. If I remember you are a drummer and thought you may enjoy this. They have identical time for most of this performance and play together very well, at least in my opinion. If you want to use two drummers, this could be a reference, so now I'm back on topic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA4tbVUG6Iw Attached Files (Click to download or enlarge) (Only available when you are logged in) muff.jpg (25.68 KB, 87 downloads) Muff2.jpg (69.43 KB, 82 downloads) I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!

Re: Mixing: USING A REFERENCE TRACK beatmaster #479992 06/29/18 01:23 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 8,327 North Carolina David Snyder Veteran
David Snyder Veteran Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 8,327 North Carolina	Beat, last one really: try this out: https://www.kvraudio.com/product/limiter-no6-by-vladg-sound Whole Lotta Love is all I can say. You will love it trust me. And in addition to OCHRE, also get TAN. Same company. Really good. Bye. David Snyder Songwriter/Renaissance Man Studio + Fingers https://davidsnydersongs.com/ https://spoti.fi/359Gigs www.davidsnydermusic.com/ www.reverbnation.com/davidpsnyder www.soundcloud.com/davidsnyderchannel https://www.songtradr.com/user/profile/david.snyder

Re: Mixing: USING A REFERENCE TRACK floyd jane #479995 06/29/18 01:35 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: May 2017 Posts: 1,685 beatmaster Expert
beatmaster Expert Joined: May 2017 Posts: 1,685	As a polar example to your cardboard box drums there's Tropea's Muff, with Rick Marotta in left channel and Steve Gadd in right. If it works it works! Rharv, I am not a drummer I was just making a point on how to record a vocal, guitar etc. But you are right I did enjoy it. I have a mate who will use a can of coke cut to situ the mike in and no reverb, you are correct if it works it works.. In live venues. Spot on I was more referring to Buddy Holly way back then. Peggy sue. https://www.morrissey-solo.com/threads/buddy-holly-original-masters.73880/ Last edited by beatmaster; 06/29/18 01:43 PM. win 10 64 bit 16gb,i7 chip, ssd 500gb, m-audio air, ,Roland BK-7M, 1000,shure sm7b,sonar,acid,mixcraft, variety of plugins.Sample tank 3,Kontakt. TC Helicon Voicelive 3 2 . https://beatmaster1.bandcamp.com/releases

Re: Mixing: USING A REFERENCE TRACK floyd jane #480032 06/29/18 09:30 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,753 San Andreas Fault Tobias Expert
Tobias Expert Joined: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,753 San Andreas Fault	And to keep this even farther off the topic; here's Ramblin' On deconstructed. My opinion; each track sounds pretty bad on it's own. Put together it's an orchestra. http://www.openculture.com/2013/10/deconstructing-led-zeppelins-classic-song-ramble-on-track-by-track.html This is the song where John Bonham plays the empty guitar case. Crank it up in your headphones. It's actually quite a creepy feeling. It's interesting to hear the bleeding on some of the tracks. I'm out of time but I want to rip each track and put them in Reaper for a remix and maybe sub my own guitar solo in there. Does the noise in your head bother me ?

Re: Mixing: USING A REFERENCE TRACK floyd jane #480216 07/01/18 05:04 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA R rockstar_not Veteran
rockstar_not Veteran R Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA	Back in the day when I worked at General Motors, we periodically used a consultant (Dave Clark - not of the '5' fame, but the somewhat famous audio engineer) who had a great list of tracks for audio system subjective and objective evaluations. As it turns out, it was also a great list of reference tracks. The closest thing I can find is Bob Katz' list of dynamically well-mixed and mastered songs. I like some of these songs, so I have made it a point to obtain several on CD. https://www.digido.com/honor-roll/ There's quite a wide variety of music styles in the honor roll that Bob lists. Reference tracks also work well for the other side of mixing which is arranging. Taking the time to list out the likely tracks, their processing, when and where they appear in the mix and overall song, is also instructive. This takes some patience to audibly deconstruct a mix and arrangement but always worthwhile. Someone way back in the thread mentioned Led Zeppelin. I was listening to my 2-CD compliation I have of theirs this past week on some really nice in-ear monitors, and it's funny how many times you can hear a squeak coming out of Bonzo's kick drum pedal. LZ has always been about the feel, however - not so much the sound quality. My Songs, photos, writing,etc. My Sound Cloud

Re: Mixing: USING A REFERENCE TRACK rockstar_not #480250 07/02/18 05:41 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 8,327 North Carolina David Snyder Veteran
David Snyder Veteran Joined: Aug 2014 Posts: 8,327 North Carolina	This is great. Thank you. David Snyder Songwriter/Renaissance Man Studio + Fingers https://davidsnydersongs.com/ https://spoti.fi/359Gigs www.davidsnydermusic.com/ www.reverbnation.com/davidpsnyder www.soundcloud.com/davidsnyderchannel https://www.songtradr.com/user/profile/david.snyder

Re: Mixing: USING A REFERENCE TRACK floyd jane #480274 07/02/18 07:59 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Sep 2010 Posts: 7,540 Sacramento, California dcuny Veteran
dcuny Veteran Joined: Sep 2010 Posts: 7,540 Sacramento, California	Like Beetlejuice, if you say my name... Reference tracks can tell you a number of things. The most obvious what volume the different instruments should be. I've found that I always overestimate the volume of vocals, and place them too far in the front. On the other hand, drums are often quite louder that I expect them to be. But you should match for frequency as well. That means deciding which instruments live in which frequency. There are various tools to help with spectral matching, such as the Reaper's free Spectrum Matcher. While it's not a good idea to simply apply spectral curves, it can be quite instructive! Once you've decided who gets to live where in the frequency range, the simplest thing to do is high/low pass those instruments outside of that range. It's amazing how much you can remove from an instrument that's never noticed in a full mix. Finally, reference tracks can tell you how many instruments to use. It's a lot easier to balance a song with fewer instruments, and floyd jane's latest reminded me to put less in, and make more from what I had. Just some thoughts. -- David Cuny My virtual singer development blog Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?

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