PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Musical Acumen

There has been a lot of discussion on here about the inability to read music, and the inference that one's inability to do so was a crippling aspect in writing, performing, or singing music. The following is a only a partial list of those who were thus "crippled".


Musicians/ Composers who couldn't read music.


Elvis Presley
The Beatles
Jimi Hendrix
Eric Clapton
Tony Iommi
Michael Jackson
Eddie Van Halen
Tommy Emanuel
Stevie Ray Vaughan
Jimmy Page
Frank Sinatra,
Sylvia Fine
Barbra Streisand
Paul Simon
Harry Lillis 'Bing'Crosby, Jr.
Miles Davis
Irving Berlin
Chet Baker
Roland Kirk
Django Reinhardt
Art Tatum
Wes Montgomery
Buddy Rich
Joe Pass
Tom Petty
Lindsey Buckingham
Tom Morello
Mike Campbell
Stevie Wonder
B.B. King


Of course, this is only a partial list.



Regards,


Bob

Paul Simona - Up dislektics

I guess Ray Charles couldn't either.

Hi

Don’t know about that Sinbad.
I knew a blind man that played piano and I seem to recall that he had some Braille music scores / lessons
Mike

Miles Davis should not be on that list.

Yeah, he went to Julliard I think. Saw an interview with him a while back after a Kind of Blue listening. But you can replace him with many many many more who didn’t read. I recently read that Bela Fleck arranged orchestral parts by humming or singing what he wanted to different players!

I just finished reading "Skydog", the Duane Allman story. Interesting read, highly recommended for fans of the Allman Brothers.

Before he started the Allman brothers with Greg he was a top session player, played on tracks from Wilson Pickett, Aretha Franklin, Boz Scaggs, and many, many more.

He was self taught and couldn't read, but that didn't stop him getting all the session work he could handle.

He did attend Julliard for one semester, but hated it. So you're half right.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Juilliard_School_people



Regards,


Bob

Impressive List, but I think if given the choice most people would opt to be able to be good sight readers, including me.

I mean its not exactly a feather in your hat not to be able to read.

Or maybe a person can delude themselves that they are in good company if they can't.

There are always exceptions to the rule, and the exceptions do not disprove the rule.

For every famous musician who cannot read music, you will find hundreds who can. Plus if the learned to read music and music theory they would have gotten to their highest peak sooner and surpassed what they could do without those skills.

Plus your list is padded.

Irving Berlin could read music, but only in one key. He had a transposing piano so he could play in any key.

Ray Charles could read Braille music. I played with a blind person who could, he would have to pass his hand over the page, and what he passed his had over had to be committed to memory so he cold play both hands on the piano.

How about Frank Sinatra? Barbra Striesand? Bing Crosby? Bing Crosby? Michael Jackson? How many singers read music? (Not enough IMO).

Miles Davis could read, but could not sight-read (there is a difference) and I suppose others on the list might be the same way.

I always get amused at people who try to defend not reading music and/or not learning theory.

To balance your list, the entire semi-pro Space Coast Orchestra is much bigger than that list and they all can read.

The Atlantic Classical Orchestra is bigger than that list and they can read.

The local high school band has more members than that list and they all can read.

Insights and incites by Notes

"For every famous musician who cannot read music, you will find hundreds who can."

Depends on the genre.

I would guess that if you are talking about popular music, or blues music, or roots music in general, it would be for every famous musician who can read music, you will find hundreds who can't.

This is definitely an interesting list. Thanks for sharing.

"I always get amused at people who try to defend not reading music and/or not learning theory. "

Well, I'm glad to bring some amusement into your life

In actuality I don't defend them as IMO they need no defense and I'm sure they feel the same way.

Our musical mentor, grammy nominated, whom we played and recorded with for many years couldn't read and the conversation never came up. I assuredly do not denigrate those millions who read, know theory and have richer lives for it nor would I laugh at those who feel pressured to defend not having chosen that path.

I don't think it's a numbers game, i.e, how many can vs how many can't..particularly since we are talking only about those who are well known. As Black Hawk said "every man must choose his own path." Mine was to play in several bands with some great musicians (some of who read and knew a ton of theory) and have decades of fun w/o having the time or inclination or discipline to learn theory. But nary a regret!

Cheers.

Bud

I think the discussion came from a post about hearing a song and playing the chords. Some of the replies, including mine, talked about playing experience and ear training. Those are not the same as reading music or sight reading (also different, as Bob said).

If you are going to play an instrument or sing complex music, it is much easier if you at least understand scale degrees.

One thing I have noticed is that some musicians who are great readers don't improvise well.

I don't think anyone said a musician is crippled by not being able to read. At the same time, more ideas and opportunities are open to you if you can.

2b

Copy/Paste error. Fixed.


Regards,

Bob

I think that list includes some pretty "good company", and I'm not a delusional person.


Regards,


Bob

I knew SOMEBODY would Google that as if it makes a difference to the schlubs who want to play for the old folk "down to th' VF Dubya".

That list isn't even close to the discussion we are having here. There are what, 73 gajillion people in the USA who play music and you think listing 20 EXCEPTIONAL exceptions matters?

How about this scenario? Somebody hears you play in a club and says "I want this guy for my next session." Their people contact your people. Your people set you up with a time and date. You show up with your favorite guitar, sit at your stool, and they hand you music. And the session master counts you in. If you can't do that, learn how to sight read or you'll never get another session call.

That scenario isn't copy music or improvising 32 bars of blues solo. Pick whichever example from your list that you like, and in every case they had to HEAR somebody play something and then they learned it from there. In commercial session work, there is no song yet. You create it. You create that rhythm bed for the solo players to solo over. How many of those Wrecking Crew guys do you think couldn't read? (Um... the answer is "none".) Unless they were working for Brian Wilson who spent as long as 6 months on a song, they had to get it right NOW so they could wrap in an hour and get to the next session. But music wasn't their hobby or their 4 time a month side job. It was how they paid for mansions.

Only those who can't read will cast aspersions at those who do like the non readers here do. That is classic "denial by overcompensation" (like presenting Google's list as your evidence). "I can't do it. Thus it must not be important." Or, "I can't drive stick. So stick shift must be stupid." I love to be able to hand people charts that I wrote and they can read and say "Play this." And if they are good, 3 takes at most and they are done.

Also remember that solos are NOT laying in rhythm beds. You included BB King. His virtuosity was his tone and his lack of wordiness. Simple lines played with taste and tone. Have you noticed he couldn't play while he sang? What he did didn't call for reading.

Interesting from your Googled list is that there are several players on there that the world considered "the greatest" and I have absolutely no love for. Eddie Van Halen was all flash. Hammer-on solos seeing how many notes he could fit into his solo window but not a good rhythm player. And so many dumb kids thought he invented the right hand on the neck technique because they are young and know nothing about music. That's been around since flamenco guitar was born in what, the stone age? Jimmy Page? Loud, tasteless, solos that were uninspired and told no story, often with poor timing, mostly played with toys. ("Did you see that? He used a BOOOOOOOW!!!!") Likely why he was 3rd to the dance with The Yardbirds. Tom Petty? Seriously? If he was all that, why did he have a guitar player in his band? And he couldn't sing AT ALL. Miles Davis? The scat and bebop he did COULDN'T be written. Parker too. And Gillespie. When you have a guy like Parker who was proud to say he never played the same thing twice, what IS there for him to read?

What do you think of Dream Theater? Think THEY can read? Those Berklee educated guys? The DRUMMER reads music.

I will strongly and passionately disagree for the rest of my life with anybody who says reading does not matter. Again, most of you who say it doesn't, can't. I agree with the Notes Norton Notion that the people who reached skill plateaus without reading likely took much longer to get there than they would have had they been able to read.

From my experience I have noted that those hobbyists who could read music played music much later in life than those who could not read music. That is when ones music genre went out of style they put down their instruments.

I'd surmise that those pros who could not read music were surrounded but those that could read music, either with session musicians or for transcription of what they played for copyright publishing purposes. YMMV

But,as already noted, you do not need to read music to produce good music.

I know we are talking about proper score sheet music here, but even at its basic level a guitar tab of an introduction to a song or solo, is very basic reading in itself.

And who hasn't been helped by that at times?

Think of the intro's or solo's you know now, that was helped by reading a guitar tab, and maybe would be impossible to learn by ear otherwise?

At the minute I have just got the hang of the Blue Danube on the guitar by printing out the music from biab, and listening to it.Though its a simple enough tune, I would never have got it note perfect by ear alone, ear is simply not good enough.

Saying all that....I will never be a proper reader, because I am not dedicated enough to learn, too old and poor eyesight ever to be a good reader, but having a listen and having the sheet music available slowly allows me to pick my way though it.

Well, you'd better tell that to Eddie!



Regards,

Bob

"Irving Berlin could read music, but only in one key. He had a transposing piano so he could play in any key."




Once again, half-right.


"The composer of countless beloved standards and show tunes including “Alexander’s Ragtime Band,” “White Christmas,” and “God Bless America” couldn’t read or write music."


"Berlin boasted of his ignorance of music. As early as 1915 he said that since he knew little about the rules of songwriting, he was free to violate them, “and the result was [often] an original twist.”



https://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2664/if-irving-berlin-could-not-read-or-write-music-how-did-he-compose/




Regards,


Bob