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"The composer of countless beloved standards and show tunes including “Alexander’s Ragtime Band,” “White Christmas,” and “God Bless America” couldn’t read or write music."
To achieve great results you need not only knowledge of the theory of music and have talents, but also the desire to work - every day and every hour
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I knew SOMEBODY would Google that as if it makes a difference to the schlubs who want to play for the old folk "down to th' VF Dubya".
That list isn't even close to the discussion we are having here. There are what, 73 gajillion people in the USA who play music and you think listing 20 EXCEPTIONAL exceptions matters?
How about this scenario? Somebody hears you play in a club and says "I want this guy for my next session." Their people contact your people. Your people set you up with a time and date. You show up with your favorite guitar, sit at your stool, and they hand you music. And the session master counts you in. If you can't do that, learn how to sight read or you'll never get another session call.
That scenario isn't copy music or improvising 32 bars of blues solo. Pick whichever example from your list that you like, and in every case they had to HEAR somebody play something and then they learned it from there. In commercial session work, there is no song yet. You create it. You create that rhythm bed for the solo players to solo over. How many of those Wrecking Crew guys do you think couldn't read? (Um... the answer is "none".) Unless they were working for Brian Wilson who spent as long as 6 months on a song, they had to get it right NOW so they could wrap in an hour and get to the next session. But music wasn't their hobby or their 4 time a month side job. It was how they paid for mansions.
Only those who can't read will cast aspersions at those who do like the non readers here do. That is classic "denial by overcompensation" (like presenting Google's list as your evidence). "I can't do it. Thus it must not be important." Or, "I can't drive stick. So stick shift must be stupid." I love to be able to hand people charts that I wrote and they can read and say "Play this." And if they are good, 3 takes at most and they are done.
Also remember that solos are NOT laying in rhythm beds. You included BB King. His virtuosity was his tone and his lack of wordiness. Simple lines played with taste and tone. Have you noticed he couldn't play while he sang? What he did didn't call for reading.
Interesting from your Googled list is that there are several players on there that the world considered "the greatest" and I have absolutely no love for. Eddie Van Halen was all flash. Hammer-on solos seeing how many notes he could fit into his solo window but not a good rhythm player. And so many dumb kids thought he invented the right hand on the neck technique because they are young and know nothing about music. That's been around since flamenco guitar was born in what, the stone age? Jimmy Page? Loud, tasteless, solos that were uninspired and told no story, often with poor timing, mostly played with toys. ("Did you see that? He used a BOOOOOOOW!!!!") Likely why he was 3rd to the dance with The Yardbirds. Tom Petty? Seriously? If he was all that, why did he have a guitar player in his band? And he couldn't sing AT ALL. Miles Davis? The scat and bebop he did COULDN'T be written. Parker too. And Gillespie. When you have a guy like Parker who was proud to say he never played the same thing twice, what IS there for him to read?
What do you think of Dream Theater? Think THEY can read? Those Berklee educated guys? The DRUMMER reads music.
I will strongly and passionately disagree for the rest of my life with anybody who says reading does not matter. Again, most of you who say it doesn't, can't. I agree with the Notes Norton Notion that the people who reached skill plateaus without reading likely took much longer to get there than they would have had they been able to read. Wow. You might want to edit your signature line, man. 
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"Berlin boasted of his ignorance of music. As early as 1915 he said that since he knew little about the rules of songwriting, he was free to violate them, “and the result was [often] an original twist.”
Could well be true, I have read nothing about the man, but at the same time I wouldn't be surprised if the above is incorrect for the simple reason that some people like an air of mystery about themselves, and admitting or pretending to know nothing about a subject (that you come across as great at) only adds to the esteem that people hold you in.
People do the same nowadays, so probably no different then.
Great discussion though.
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All musicians are free to approach things as they like, but I hope a list like this does not discourage anyone from learning music theory if they have the opportunity. It can only make you better.
I’ve given work to over a hundred regional musicians. I can’t hire you unless you can read music well.
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All musicians are free to approach things as they like, but I hope a list like this does not discourage anyone from learning music theory if they have the opportunity. It can only make you better.
I’ve given work to over a hundred regional musicians. I can’t hire you unless you can read music well. That was not my intention. I just got fed up with all the snobbery on a site dedicated to typing in chords and "making" music. I do disagree with it necessarily making you "better". We wouldn't have the Blues if playing it required knowing theory. Regards, Bob
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We wouldn't have the Blues if playing it required knowing theory. You are such a tool. Blues is one style of what, 100? Usually blues is found to be played by a bunch of people who only know 3 chords. Try to sit down and play a jazz chart you have never seen or heard before without being able to read. Go play your 12 bar blues for nothing on jam night and stay out of conversations that have to do with intellect. You don't belong in them. Just because you can't read don't put us who can down for having actually STUDIED music rather than just a-pickin' along.
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Why disparage a rich American original genre (and those who love and play it) that has such deep roots in our music history? What’s the upside of that? Who would suggest that jazz would exist w/o it’s progenitor the blues?
I just don’t get it — yeah, yeah, I know, I’m bereft of intellect...
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There is no doubt the ability to read is a great thing. The ability to feel is also a great advantage. IMHO there are times when the ability to read outweighs the ability to feel playing in a military type band or a symphony orchestra one could probably get by with little feel but to read is important. Playing country music reading is probably not that important but the ability to feel and understand is. Similar to blues to be able to read dots and play like a machine puts a dampener of the music.
I lived in a town that had a music training facility for army musicians. They could all read dots really well. However few of them were ever asked to play in the local club type bands because read is what they did, not feel. I must say however those that did play in local bands were by and large excellent musos.
To have someone play blues, rock or country with feeling is what it is about. I would think with jazz it would depend on the band but once again I believe feeling is paramount.
People that can both feel and read with a great sense of loyalty would be the most useful but they are not that easy to find.
My thoughts I may be wrong but it’s how I see it.
Tony
Last edited by Teunis; 01/25/19 02:16 PM.
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There is more than one right way to make music.
Plus there are many different skills needed to make music. Improvising, reading, intonation, phrasing, ornamentation, dynamics, innovation, tone, expression, and so many more.
Some people can do very well without knowing all the skills but without all the skills they are limited in some way.
Not reading music is a little like not reading your native language (in my case English).
One can be a decent cook without ever reading a recipe. But without being able to read a cook book, if someone told you they wanted Veal Oscar or Shrimp Scampi, and that cook may have eaten those dishes in a restaurant, it'll take him/her a lot of failed tries and wasted food to get them to taste right. With a recipe it's very possible to get it right the first time.
I'll cite an example I wrote in a corresponding thread.
We had a request to learn "Just Another Day In Paradise" by Bertie Higgins. It wasn't a big hit, and so finding the music was almost impossible. I prefer to have the right chords and then substitute when and if I want to.
The chords aren't difficult at all, and I had what I thought were the right ones but I questioned a couple that worked, but didn't sound quite right.
So I posted on a forum or two asking if anybody knew the correct chords. About a dozen people generously used their ears and took the time to figure out the chords, and I ended up with a dozen similar but different versions of the chords.
I found a used copy on eBay, bought it, and found we were all wrong. Nobody figured these simple chords out right.
In addition the music had the background song-specific licks written in notation, and that saved me a lot of time figuring them out. I changed them to steel drum, changed the feel a little to make it more lively for live performance.
The guy who requested it, a regular customer at a club we played in, liked it, appreciated it, and told us our arrangement was even better than the record.
And I've thought about it a bit since I posted that. Every person who gave me the chords they heard missed a few, and then didn't all miss the same ones. Even a person who I know has absolute pitch (aka perfect pitch) missed a couple.
Also, when I was on the road, I was in a band where everybody, including the drummer read music (the drummer also played marimba and other melodic percussion instruments).
We toured the country, warmed up in concert for famous bands, and were courted by Motown to be the first choice for what eventually became the group Rare Earth. The talks broke down over money, but there was a lot of sheet music, much of it hand written floating around Motown studios. The horn and string parts were played by members of the Detroit Symphony simply because they could read music. Some of what we now call "The Funk Brothers" had jazz gigs outside the studio and could definitely read.
I heard an interview with Paul McCartney on the radio when he was trying to make 'classical' albums like "Standing Stones". He said he wished he could read music, and his 'classical' albums show is love for listening to classics, but his inability to have the skills to write it, even with help.
And George Martin knew how to read, arrange, and had good theory chops. Listen to the "Let It Be" album, produced by another fine producer "Phil Spector" and you can immediately see what George did with the Beatles Songs. He should be listed as a co-writer IMO.
Lynyrd Skynyrd may or may not have been able to read music, but The Swampers who cut much of their music you hear on record certainly did.
The Wrecking crew was mentioned earlier. You can't count the non-reading musicians that were replaced on record by the reading Wrecking Crew, along with Mussel Shoals and other top studios.
When we had an active recording studio in town (before desktop forced it out of business), I was a first call sax player. the most familiar guitar playing regulars all read music.
It's a good skill, and is actually easier than reading English once you get it.
Oh, it's OK not to be able to read music, but it's much better if you can. You might be in good company if you can't, but you'll be in better company if you can.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
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"We had a request to learn "Just Another Day In Paradise" by Bertie Higgins. It wasn't a big hit, and so finding the music was almost impossible. I prefer to have the right chords and then substitute when and if I want to. The chords aren't difficult at all, and I had what I thought were the right ones but I questioned a couple that worked, but didn't sound quite right." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40613SHHW2cSeriously? You crack me up, Bob. Regards, Bob
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Wow. You might want to edit your signature line, man. Eddie only reads music. Not his signature line.
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We wouldn't have the Blues if playing it required knowing theory. You are such a tool. Blues is one style of what, 100? Usually blues is found to be played by a bunch of people who only know 3 chords. Try to sit down and play a jazz chart you have never seen or heard before without being able to read. Go play your 12 bar blues for nothing on jam night and stay out of conversations that have to do with intellect. You don't belong in them. Just because you can't read don't put us who can down for having actually STUDIED music rather than just a-pickin' along. Actually, since my stroke paralyzed my right side I can't play guitar anymore. I explained that to you a year ago in a PM, when you had complimented me on my playing and wanted me to do some tracks for you. Remember that?  As for my being a "tool", that is a matter of opinion (and you know what they say about those.)
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Can I read music? Well, kind of. I can look at the "shaped notes" as Johnny Cash used to call them and figure out a few things such as the key, the actual notes, the values of said shaped notes, and if I have the time..... can actually play it on the piano if it's in the key of C, G, or maybe D. I often write out the first few notes of the melody to a new song I'm working on so I don't lose it. Just the note names is all I need to recall the melody.
I studied piano for 7 years as a kid and music theory on high school for 2 years plus playing in the school band and orchestra as a drummer. Yep, I was a drummer from 3rd grade up through 11th grade. All of that was based on the simple premise that reading was necessary. I hated reading the music, especially percussion. I always felt that it was too limiting. I wanted to jam and improvise.
One particular event comes to mind. My piano teacher gave me a new piece of sheet music and told me it was a very beautiful melody. She played it by reading it so I could hear it with instructions to learn it the following week. So I went home and started to work on it. Next week, at my lesson, she asked me to play it for her. I told her I really liked the melody and proceeded to play it. When I finished she clapped and said that was absolutely beautiful .....and well played..... now, would I play it again.... and this time.... play what was actually written on the sheet music. Busted!
I developed the ability to hear a song and know what was going on so that I could play practically anything without a lot of rehearsal time or the need for sheet music. When I played with the church orchestra, we played a lot in all those flat keys. I relied on the sheet music a good amount and the chord charts.
I don't look down on those who can read, nor those who can't. We're all musicians and have our unique ways to express ourselves with our music. To those who only sight read, I encourage you to learn how to play by ear as it can make you a better musician as it lets you get into the music and feel it. To those who can't read and don't know any theory, once again, take the time to learn at least the basics as it too will make you a better player because you will understand the deeper aspects to the music you play.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I once knew a woman who played in Eugene Ormandy's Philadelphia orchestra. She played Harp. Beautifully. Now, that is some serious notation, Jack. She would stare in wonder at my 12-string as I played my trite little songs. Then she said "I'd love to be able to do that." "Do what?" I said. "Improvise" Different strokes. Regards, Bob
Last edited by 90 dB; 01/28/19 11:23 AM.
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I just got fed up with all the snobbery on a site dedicated to typing in chords and "making" music. Gotta agree with you there!
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I can recall several heated debates with my father who played various brass instruments mainly trumpet and cornet. He had several instruments set up in different keys (Bb and Eb cornetsfor example”). My father could site read, he could also knock out a tune by ear. He was awarded recognition by several musical organisations. He could play the notes but in my opinion had little feel in most stuff he played.
One day we were playing together (a very rare event as we did not see eye to eye) things were going along nicely and he played this beautiful note and held it. I asked why did you destroy the feel. His answer was I played the music as written there is a fermata on that note. Yes I said but if you have a heap of dancers on the floor it is more important to keep to the time. He could not see that. His opinion was the fermata was there and made it fine. I guess the people dancing needed to understand the importance of a beautifully played note.
Then again another time by this time dad was 84. He was coming to my second marriage ceremony. We lived in a different state and he’d be in our area for a couple of weeks. Before he left home he asked if I could lend him a cornet or trumpet. I told him I could and quickly forgot that. After a couple of days he asked where is the trumpet. “When you get to my age (84) if you don’t practice every day you lose your lip.”
Anyway at the wedding we had a top musician playing a keyboard. Dad went over and asked if he could play a tune on the cornet. No worries said the keyboard player what are you going to play. Il Silenzio says dad (one tune he always played with feeling), right (chortle) says the keyboard player. The keyboard player starts an intro, dad starts playing, the keyboard players jaw dropped he stooped and looked at the old man amazed. At the end of the song he said to my father will you play some more with me. Yeh says dad, what would you like asks the keyboard player. Whatever you want says dad. What key asks the keyboard play. Dad looks at him and says, “just play sonny I’ll find you”. They played on for 30+ minutes.
Sorry to be long winded but it is a story I wanted to tell.
Tony
Last edited by Teunis; 01/28/19 01:53 PM.
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Actually, since my stroke paralyzed my right side I can't play guitar anymore. I explained that to you a year ago in a PM, when you had complimented me on my playing and wanted me to do some tracks for you. Remember that? As for my being a "tool", that is a matter of opinion (and you know what they say about those.) [/quote] I think you maybe mentioned this once before Bob, whatever the discussion about reading music or not, good to see you starting these discussion and keeping that crazy sense of humour of yours. Must all be down to that Starmaker machine or whatever the hell you call it.. Wonder if it would do anything for me....
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I don't look down on musicians who can't read or don't know much theory, instead, I hope I encourage them to take some time to learn to read and learn music theory. Why? Because in the long run I truly believe it will make them better musicians and make music more fun and rewarding for them.
Yes there are many skills to have in music. Reading is one, theory is one, big ears are very important, improvisation is another skill, and the list goes on and on.
Every skill we acquire as a musician enhances what we can do to reach a listener emotionally. And for me, that's what it's all about.
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I was working briefly with a bunch of guys trying to get the into a lace where they were passable enough to take their little blues band (We have at least 100 bands here that do what they do) out to play it. During one rehearsal, the singer missed the timing on a pickup note AGAIN (6 straight rehearsals he made the same mistake) and I went OFF on him. I told him that he kept making that same mistake every week, and every week I corrected it, and he did it right. Until the next week when he did it wrong again.
I tried to explain the concept of "anticipation", where sometimes a syllable comes before the downbeat.
Deer in the headlights.
Then I asked the million dollar question. "Don't you know what the downbeat is?"
He didn't know that! How do you play guitar and sing and NOT know what "downbeat" means? Had this guy cared enough about the craft that is music he would have invested 2 hours per night 2 nights a week for 9-10 weeks and learned BASIC BASICS. I don't ask that anybody can score a 16 staff symphony. Learn what rhythm is. Learn the circle of 5ths. Learn how to read time signatures. Learn the steps of a scale, the difference between major and minor, how to build chords. I don't expect anybody to suddenly become Mozart and write manuscripts perfectly the first time to where there is no backup copy. Just learn basic basics.
We had a discussion here once about chord structure and how I was taught the concept. Everybody dismissed the way I learned it by half step count to tell me "Any major chord is 1-4-5." Great.
What does 4 mean? What does 5 mean? 1-4-5 calls for the person to know scales and scale structure. Where the half steps and whole steps are. To a newbie, 1-4-5 means what downbeat meant to that singer.
As far as that band, I called the guy who was running the band and business side of it that night and said I wouldn't be back. I can't fit into a group of people who call themselves musicians and don't speak "music". I told them that with what he had to work with, which was a young hot guitar player and a bunch of guys named Joe, that they would never be more than a "wives and girlfriends, friends and family" type band and that I wasn't interested in playing for 20 people. They played 6 gigs, the guitar player bailed to move to Nashville, and they got a new guitar player who was yet another "wing it" player. They lasted 6 more gigs and disbanded. At the root of it was that the guy running it was the drummer and he was possibly the worst drummer I ever tried to play in front of. I turned on a click track at that same final rehearsal and he was already off time after 4 bars. You can hide anything on stage except the drummer. The drummer has to be great. When I was in the Motown band and we were auditioning for a new drummer, it came down to 2 guys. We called them both and said that we were going out that night to drink some beer and hear some music and they should join us. When they got there we all sat around and didn't talk about the band AT ALL. What I DID do was have one of the band's girl followers "just happen to be there" and get them both to dance. One was smooth as could be on the dance floor. The other looked like a badly animated stick figure. We hired the good dancer, because he had a better natural feel for rhythm.
And he knew what quarter note triplets are. (Theory.)
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My first instrument was banjo. I also play guitar and bass guitar. Oh, I am forgetting Handbells with the church's choir.
I was taught banjo without notes nor tab. All I can say is that is one ornery instrument. Timing was non-existent for me. I fought with it... and fought... and fought.
But, between the handbells, guitar and bass guitar, I did learn theory. It has made that banjo a bit easier to understand and play.
...Deb
Last edited by DSM; 01/29/19 06:37 AM.
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Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: Using VST3 Plugins
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Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Mac Videos
With the release of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac, we’re rolling out a collection of brand-new videos on our YouTube channel. We’ll also keep this forum post updated so you can easily find all the latest videos in one convenient spot.
From overviews of new features and walkthroughs of the 202 new RealTracks, to highlights of XPro Styles PAK 8, Xtra Styles PAKs 18, the 2025 49-PAK, and in-depth tutorials — you’ll find everything you need to explore what’s new in Band-in-a-Box® 2025.
Reference this forum post for One-Stop Shopping of our Band-in-a-Box® 2025 Mac Videos — we’ll be adding more videos as they’re released!
Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Mac is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac is here, packed with major new features and an incredible collection of available new content! This includes 202 RealTracks (in Sets 449-467), plus 20 bonus Unreleased RealTracks in the 2025 49-PAK. There are new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 4, two new sets of “RealDrums Stems,” XPro Styles PAK 8, Xtra Styles PAK 19, and more!
Special Offers
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac with savings of up to 50% on most upgrade packages during our special—available until July 31, 2025! Visit our Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available.
2025 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK Add-ons
We've packed our Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK with some incredible Add-ons! The Free Bonus PAK is automatically included with most Band-in-a-Box® for Mac 2025 packages, but for even more Add-ons (including 20 Unreleased RealTracks!) upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for only $49. You can see the full lists of items in each package, and listen to demos here.
If you have any questions, feel free to connect with us directly—we’re here to help!
Band-in-a-Box 2025 Italian Version is Here!
Cari amici
È stata aggerate la versione in Italiano del programma più amato dagli appassionati di musica, il nostro Band-in-a-Box.
Questo è il link alla nuova versione 2025.
Di seguito i link per scaricare il pacchetti di lingua italiana aggiornati per Band-in-a-Box e RealBand, anche per chi avesse già comprato la nuova versione in inglese.
Band-in-a-Box 2025 - Italiano
RealBand 2025 - Italiano
Band-in-a-Box 2025 French Version is Here!
Bonjour à tous,
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 pour Windows est disponible en Français.
Le téléchargement se fait à partir du site PG Music
Pour ceux qui auraient déjà acheté la version 2025 de Band-in-a-Box (et qui donc ont une version anglaise), il est possible de "franciser" cette version avec les patchs suivants:
BIAB 2025 - francisation
RealBand 2025 - francisation
Voilà, enjoy!
Band-in-a-Box 2025 German Version is Here!
Update Your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 to Build 1128 for Windows Today!
Already using Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Windows®? Download Build 1128 now from our Support Page to enjoy the latest enhancements and improvements from our team.
Stay up to date—get the latest update now!
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