PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production Mixing,Mastering,Post Production.....what's a guy to do???

My goal is to improve the quality of my backing tracks.

I create single mono .wav files from BIAB.
I mix the instruments in biab, add very little reverb and export the wav.
While I have RealBand and Logic Pro, I don't really use them.

I believe I could do a better job.
I'm just not sure where to start.

Today I became aware of MP3gain on this forum. Ever the inquisitive type, I exported a few BIAB arrangements to mp3 and found every one had some clipping in it.
I used MP3gain to "correct" this. While the volume was lower I did think the quality had improved when compared to the original .wav I created previously.

So my question is what few tips/tricks might I start with to improve the quality of my tracks. Mostly they are bass & drums often with a rhythm keyboard or guitar.

Thanks in advance for some direction.

Part of a quote

Ok for a start I am thinking when you first put the MP3 into MP3gain it wants to lift the level of your file by a few DB or your files are already close to 0 db.

MP3gain will indicate clipping if you have a file set at say -1.3 dB below 0 dB but have the overall level set a bit low. (Or it does for me as I usually put the stuff through a limiter first.). Maybe you could try something like ensuring the levels are about where they should be.

I for example set my .wav file for a max peak dB level of -1.3 dB then I put it through a LUFS meter and look for close to -14 dB to -16 dB. This gets me close to MP3gain not having to lift the levels. If I went to a level of -19 dB it would try a lift the signal by 2 dB anything that was close to the -1.3 dB would then be lifted over 0 dB so show up as a clip. (Usually a snare hit and you would probably not notice in the end result).

If you are setting your .wav file at 0 dB or close once again there would most likely be clipping when put to MP3. Most of the .wav files coming out of BIAB are fairly hot (close to 0). You could try pulling the file into something like Audacity and ensure the file is not too close to 0 dB. (Use Amplify option to reduce the file or maybe Normalize to -1.5 or so dB. Then convert to MP3.

Better still would be to run your file though a limiter and drop the levels that way. If you give yourself some headroom in the limiter (set the max true peak to -1.3 or a little less) you should get shy of the issue.

Hope this helps. I use Izotope Ozone to get my tracks ready so it all becomes easy. Although there are many free VSTs that will give similar results but you’d need a DAW of some kind.

That is my method.

Tony

I suggest you subscribe to the recording revolution:

https://www.recordingrevolution.com/

This is free. Graham gives excellent advice on exactly what you are asking via a weekly blog. He also has a lot of free guides that you can download that explains a lot of what he is teaching.

He sure has helped me.

PS - also load a song in the users showcase and ask for constructive criticism. The folks here also give friendly excellent advice.

Teunis,
It appears my .wav files were too hot.
They all had some clipping where mp3gain wished to reduce the overall value.
I had mp3gain set to the default (89.0 db) for the analysis.

I'm thinking at this point I should load some biab arrangements (say one of my sets), adjust the mix in biab to a lower level, output the mp3's the set into a folder and then let mp3gain adjust them all to the same gain.

I do have a problem with my sets in that some backing tracks are noticeably louder than others.
It would seem this effort would correct it.

I will be switching over from .wav to .mp3. I assume I should output normalized,mono at 320kbps.
I use mono tracks as my amplification is a single speaker.

Thanks

In another post you mention you have Logic Pro X, I would be inclined to export the BIAB files as individual .wav files and pull them into Logic Pro. Then normalise the individual tracks to something like -12 dB then set each EQ, and maybe Compression. Then on the output track run the song through overall EQ and Compression, then finally through a Limiter. If you feel you need it use something to check your overall Tonal Balance (Voxengo Span or Melda analyser). Use a LUFS meter at the end set the average to about -14 LUFS. (Youlean LUFS Meter).

The products I mention you can get for free. Most likely Logic Pro has already got similar. Doing it this way you will find the results will be close to the same even before MP3gain.

It all sounds difficult but it is not all that bad and is a lot of fun.

IMHO.

Tony

I found NCH Switch audio file converter does a great job converting Band in a Box Wavs to MP3. I think it is still free for home use.
Also, I agree with "Recording Revolution." Personally, I've let sound quality stay on the back burner until lately, in deference to the development of other skill sets. I'm just now getting serious about mastering. Hope you keep us informed as to how things are going.

Teunis,
Thanks for your feedback.
I think your approach is a great skill building exercise.
I am very much interested in gaining proficiency in Logic.

But I am concerned about a more immediate problem.
Currently I gig with 75-100 multi-track wav file song tracks created in biab.
Every one I've exported and tested in Mp3Gain shows clipping in the analysis.
I'm concerned that clipped waveforms are affecting the playback quality of my tracks.
I know I have an issue with varying volumes between tracks.

It would seem mp3gain alone would quickly help to improve my tracks

Here's what I am thinking.
Perform a quick output level adjust/reduce , re-mix (if necessary) in biab, export mp3, then treat with mp3gain.
I could probably do the processing and re-load the songs into my performance software (Anytune Pro) in a day for 2-3 sets.

This might buy me some quick improvement (eliminate clipping, adjust volume) in my tracks.
I could be ready for my next gig (Friday).

After that I can begin working the path you suggested with Logic Pro.

I do think this approach would show some immediate improvement and be worth the effort.

What do you think?

Again, Thanks for your help

edshaw,

What advantage does the NCH mp3 conversion have over simply exporting the mp3 file directly from biab?

thanks

Personally, I have never exported anything other than waves from BB/RB.

I use NCH for a few reasons. The assumption that the song is in a finished wave format. I use NCH to do the following things.

1. I use Normalize to bump the levels a bit. This is usually my last step before I convert to MP3. This is the easy way to get consistently good levels of audio.
2. I trim the silence at the start and the end. This shortens the playing length a bit. No listening to silence or count in.
3. I add 500ms of silence at the start. Half a second. So you have a very slight pause when you hit play before the music starts.
4. I use it to convert to MP3. It allows me to select the bit rate based on the website platform requirements. Some have a 10MB max and if I use my preferred 320kbs rate, it's over the 10MB limit so I can downsize the bit rate to get it under the max limit.
5. It has a fairly nice and convenient music player.
6. It has a number of other features... even in the free limited version that I rarely ever use but have if it's needed.

Mrgeeze, in your other thread I mentioned using stereo files. Here's why:

I understand most PA's are mono but that's not what I'm talking about. Having a L+R stereo file allows you with a small separate mixer to adjust the levels of both sides BEFORE they go into your PA. I would start with just the bass on one side and everything else on the other. This is the lazy mans version of using multitracks on a gig. The bass is usually the biggest problem because of different acoustics in various venues. Your tracks can sound awesome at home yet at the gig the bass is booming or, maybe it too thin. Adjusting the EQ on the PA will help but not as much as having the bass in it's own channel on a mixer with EQ control before it hits the PA. Most inexpensive two channel mixers don't have tone controls so you'll probably need an 8 channel one but that's easy enough to check online. For me I wound up putting the drums and bass in one channel because I found cymbals can be annoyingly loud in some cases and turning down the highs for the cymbals doesn't affect the bass much and if the bass guitar is booming so is the kick.

The other trick I mentioned is set up your PA in your house and mix your tracks that way. That will also get you closer to how it sounds on a gig.

Bob

jazzmammal,

i get what you're saying re the mixer.
I too think I would put drums and bass on one side and everything else the other.
I like your quick fix on the cymbals by tweaking the eq.
Brilliant!

I'm expecting to upgrade my PA soon (most likely the EV Evolve 50 line array).
I don't expressly need a mixer for gigging immediately with the Evolve but if I add a singer/guitar player, it will be necessary.
I've lucked into some gigs lately so I have a small jingle in the pocket.
I can probably include it in the purchase.

I am interested in working with a digital mixer. I did some cursory review and found the Behringer XR12 digital mixer. Looks like it could handle all my mixing requirements now and into the future. Additionally it can record 2 tracks (1 for my backing tracks, 1 for my guitar). Pretty amazing for only $300.

Any experience with digital mixers?

Thanks,

Geeze.

Mixing in stereo probably does have some advantages when it comes to Tonal balance in a mono environment. For example, the high end of drums in a wide stereo sound much more crisp. Even when mixing in stereo one should also check the mix in mono to ensure not too much is lost.

Mrgeeze I think even if playing back in mono use your Logic Pro to mix each channel include some panning as well as level adjustments. Then listen in mono to see you have the sound you want. Logic Pro will most likely have a button to test mono/stereo. It will not take all that long to master. (I’m lucky my little PA is stereo so I have the backing sound coming from across the stage. Even then I still need a fair mono mix as not everybody is in the ideal stereo listening position.)

I think the best tool for getting overall levels close is a LUFS meter. This will show the average volumes for each song. Personally I do that then convert 320kbs MP3 then as a final check run them through MP3gain just to be sure. Usually MP3gain does nothing to the files as the files coming from the LUFS meter are pretty much the same overall level. However there is still the odd song that seems louder or quieter but that is more just a feeling. A really calm ballad seems too loud and a heavier rocker seems too quiet but they are the same overall level.

Because I am going to convert to MP3 I set my limiter to a true peak level of -1.3 dB. The actual limiter does very little “limiting” in my case as most of my stuff is country/easy listening (if listening to me could be easy) so I really have only drums (snare and kick) and maybe the odd bass note getting compressed by the limiter. The true peak level of -1.3 dB pretty much stops clipping when using MP3 at 320kbs.

Tony

A couple of things. First, it gives you a set of WAV files of the the highest available quality of the original mixed backing track and its components. These go into their own sub folder of the main project folder, one for each song.
Yes, you can export in MP3 format if you want. But here is why I prefer to convert: the fewer variables in your work flow, the better. The audio converter asks, 1) what is the input file? (WAV) 2) What is the output (MP3, AIFF, or other)
3)What is the quality MP3 you want? (low, med, best?) Bitrate? Do the conversions, file them, and put that folder into the main project folder. Now you have a main project folder with two subs -- WAVs and MP3's. You are not going to get confused down the road.
Say your BB backing track is exceptional. You take it to a lab for mastering or to recording studio. You going to give them an MP3? Of course not, not if you have a WAV.
There are reasons for using MP3's. One, upload and transfer time. My original BB WAV mixdown tends to be 80-120 Mb.
Converted to MP3, under 10Mb. This also can saves work on any SD cards that might come into play, such as an iPod or Walkman , though I think they have built in converters.. For those who use the DAW, I don't know. If your computer can handle it, then not a problem. But my 8 track deck takes 16G, 32G SD's and they can fill up.
I think I mentioned, I have been recording directly from the Band in a Box interface into the recorder. That is because I have found the quality of sound coming out of that little mixer on the BB interface to be top quality. If I want to tweak it, mix it down or master it, I the recorder has that capability. I just run a line out from the computer headphone jack into the recorder line in and ride the levels. There is no decision there -- the recorder records everything as WAV.
Funny thing, I can drag and MP3 into the SD card and it stores as a WAv. Sounds all right. But I'd rather record the old way, by hand.
These are some ideas I am throwing out for consideration. I am far from competent in post production. Add the fact I work with an eight track digital recorder, my thoughts may be useless to most here. Still, I don't nthink it makes too much sense to put a lot of post production effort into songs in MP3.

I think I am best served taking the longer path and working with a DAW.
I will use Logic Pro X

I watched a video on LogicProX of both the Loudness meter (LUFS) and a limiter built into the product. I understand better how to use these tools together to obtain a target output volume.

I will start by taking an arrangement in biab, doing a basic volume mix, export each track as single wav files, load into Logic and begin my work.

Very basic questions regarding biab mixer to produce the best wav files for Logic

I'm concerned about saturating (clipping) the tracks with high volume.
It appears I have that problem with my existing tracks.

What "loudness" should I shoot for on each track?
How far into Yellow/Red should I let each meter get on the individual tracks
What about Master out? Should master out be where I manage "target" wav volume?

Should I normalize my wav files inside biab?
Should I include ACID info ?
Should I take dry tracks or put a little reverb inside biab.

I will do any track panning in Logic.

I think my target output will be stereo wav files. I can play these out the ipad/iphone and with a direct box split the stereo into 2 channels. that gives me panning volume control for bass/drums during peformance as JazzMammal suggested.

I'm glad I have plenty of disk space.

To all who have helped, sincerest thanks.

<<< I am interested in working with a digital mixer. I did some cursory review and found the Behringer XR12 digital mixer. Looks like it could handle all my mixing requirements now and into the future. Additionally it can record 2 tracks (1 for my backing tracks, 1 for my guitar). Pretty amazing for only $300.

Any experience with digital mixers? >> Yes...

Yes. The Behringer XR series are excellent choices if you understand all that they offer in features. They are literally feature laden. Great if you understand mixing but can be a minefield if you don't. There is a bit of a learning curve. There are a lot of YouTube tutorials to help you learn and once you have even a basic understanding they are truly amazing units for the cost.


Similar to the BIAB program software, all of the Behringer XR and X series share a similar core of the operating software and each are modified to accommodate the unit's inputs/outputs and routing for the most part. The operating software is based off of Behringer's flagship digital mixer, the X32. Once you've learned to operate one of the units, you can navigate your way around any of the series. Add an accessory such as the Behringer X-touch and even the base XR12 unit will be a very capable equivalent to much costlier digital stand alone mixers like a Presonus 16.0.2.

Pros to the XR series is the unit works as a stage box while the operator remotely controls the unit from an Ipad, Android, X-touch or computer. There are no control knobs on the device for someone to inadvertently get the mixer settings fouled up.

A stereo mix of the gig can be recorded onto a thumb drive.

The unit has the features to provide great sound in nearly any environment.

The unit is small, lite and set up is fast and easy.

The unit can be programmed ahead of time, scenes saved for future use if you play the same venue or similar.

There is a lot of document, tutorial and video available to quickly learn how to operate the device and learn all the features and what they are and do.

Cons are that to control the device wirelessly at a gig will almost certainly require the addition of a separate and external router.

You are likely purchasing features you will never need or use.

There are a lot of menu pages and navigation that are not an issue once you are familiar with the device but can be quite troublesome until you are comfortable with the unit.

It is essentially a computer system that can crash unexpectedly just as any computer system is subject to. Communication between the device and remote can be tricky to set up and to maintain a solid connection. You may be at a gig and have to constantly reboot your wireless connection between the device and Ipad/Android Remote. You have no control over the device if you lose your wireless connection....

Your personal setup may require separate devices to playback your tracks and remotely control the device. More stuff to set up and break down.


If your budget allows, the Behringer XR18 is so much worth the additional $200US cost for the additional input/outputs and routing features that become available as well as the 18/18 USB audio interface it has.


If your budget allows the $500 range, you should also consider actual digital, digital hybrid mixers in that cost range. I specifically recommend the Zoom Livetrack 12 or Soundcraft Signature 10 or Signature 12 mixers,the Presonus AR mixers or the Behringer/Mackie/Yamaha series mixers with USB and Effects. I recommend these mixers in the order I've listed them with the Zoom as the unit I would prefer first.


From the way I interpret your gig setup, I think you will get the most bang for your dollar and the most satisfaction from a mixer like the Zoom over any of the Behringer XR devices.

Mrgeeze wrote >> I'm concerned about saturating (clipping) the tracks with high volume.
It appears I have that problem with my existing tracks.

What "loudness" should I shoot for on each track?
How far into Yellow/Red should I let each meter get on the individual tracks
What about Master out? Should master out be where I manage "target" wav volume?

Should I normalize my wav files inside biab?
Should I include ACID info ?
Should I take dry tracks or put a little reverb inside biab.

I will do any track panning in Logic.<<

What I do is set all to the same volume, center and flat in BIAB. Right click on the Master button in BIAB the option is there.

I then leave the Normalize option in saving the wav in BIAB export area on as all tracks then come into the DAW even. I then export as individual tracks. Do not use the Acid info unless you need it. Reverb is gone with the Master option above. Add it in the DAW if I want it. I create a new folder for each song.

I select the tracks I want and pull them into my DAW and “Normalise” the tracks to -12 dB (I would think Logic Pro would have that option. You could just pull down the volume to achieve similar.) Note, there is a composite track of the whole song that I do not add to the DAW.

I also colour code my tracks to make things easier to follow. (I use the same colour code on every song. Say blue for drums, orange for bass, green for guitars, yellow for pedal steel, pink piano ...) this makes recognition much easier.

Then I play through the song and set markers for the areas. This makes the task of adjusting areas simpler. For example turning down an instrument during a verse, hitting harder in the instrumental etc.

Whilst this all looks a lot of work it takes less than 10 mins once you have the song in BIAB ready.

Then I go through the mix process. Set the track levels, panning, Compression, eq. Set the automation for things such as the volumes discussed above. After the mix process is complete the overall level will still be low. Maybe -8 or so dB.

It is then I go to the “mastering” process. This involves setting the overall tone (using an analyser such as SPAN but using ears also) maybe reverb but lastly using a limiter to lift the overall level of the track. I lift it to under -1.3 dB and I set the overall level to about -14 LUFS using the LUFS meter as a guide. The reason for -14 LUFS is that is what Spotify wants and it is the middle of the LUFS ranges for various streaming services (not that I stream anything). Also once converted to MP3, MP3gain will not have to do much change on your track. (I use Reaper, in Reaper I set the 0 dB on the volume meter point to actually be -14 dB once again to make the process simpler. If I go over -14 dB the volume goes into the Red. 0 dB really -14 dB in my implementation of Reaper.)

Then I render. Listen to the track in a couple of environments.

When happy I set it up on my “performance laptop”.

All sounds a lot of work, sometimes it only takes minutes, sometimes days. But you soon get what you want.

I have done a track from start i.e. finding the style in BIAB, entering the chords, exporting the song, putting it through the procedures above in under 4 hours easy. I did know what I wanted with the song. I find often the most time consuming part is to come up with the style I want. Then maybe changing the odd instrument within the style.

That is the entire process for me.

Tony

Should I this? Should I that?

Hummmmm I don't know. Should you?

This is art. There are no hard fast rules. You do what sounds good to you and hope others like it too.

It might take you years of experimenting to find out what works best for you. I know it did for me and I'm still learning things every time I turn on the DAW to record.

What I try to achieve. I use Sonar as my DAW so you know. All references are in relation to that DAW.

I like the tracks to be full. Not weak, thin, or straight lines.... and on the other hand.... not clipping and certainly not bricked. anything in the area of 50% to 80% is where I aim to have the waves. This is from the visual observation of the track in my track view mode. If it's inside that window I can make it work well in a final mix. Speaking of bricked...... I try to keep all my tracks under the point of clipping on the output side. This is generally a function of how high I run the compression levels INSIDE the master buss. A little bit of slamming the ceiling is OK (IMHO) but when it looks like a solid brick.... nope.... go back and fix that compression rate. Let it breathe.

Have I use normalize on a weak track? yep. In the early days I tended to get a lot of thin line tracks. I've learned how to record solid tracks.

Effects on the tracks. Sometimes yes, mostly no. I will use FX in the effects bin but if I have several guitars, or several vocals, I will set up a buss and route them to the buss and put the FX there. Drums and bass are the exceptions. they get FX in the track bin. I never apply the FX to the tracks so that it's written into the bits. In the FX bin I can change it or shut it off. Remember, that verb is cumulative so if you have verb in the master, and you have verb in the buss.... be careful because it's all adding up to become a mess of reverb. Often my tracks are all dry. I use very light verb in the buss and in the master. Guitar is another exception sometimes. I don't record dry clean guitar.... it's recorded like I want it to sound from the start.

I start my mixing... let me back up... I start my recording with the end in mind. So I'm essentially mixing as I go. Compression and verb are set as defaults in the master. I tweek them as needed as I move along. I set up sub-busses as needed. This allows me to hear what the result of adding a track or an FX has on the overall mix instantly.

It's been a learning process. I'd suggest getting some projects....with waves...from one of the several sites online that has tracks bundled for you to download and mix. Mixing someone else's tracks, especially when they are solidly recorded, is a GREAT way to get experience. If you're having issues getting solid, well recorded tracks, this is a great way to get them. I can't imagine anyone who has BB & RB having any issues though, with getting well recorded tracks.

Anyway.... it's art.... so enjoy.

So,
I remixed an arrangement for 1 of my tunes in biab.
Exported individual wav files and created a logic pro x project
recorded my guitar to play the melody
used the lufs meter and a limiter to control output volume


posted the work at the following link.



https://soundcloud.com/bob-bauer-608449014/angeldelmar


Appreciate your comments/feedback

Thanks

Very nice, clean mix on a well played tune. I like the way the percussion instruments are panned, Spreads the sound. Well done.

Tony