At the moment, I'm using BiaB 2017, but I suspect BiaB 2019 will be the same.
I've just discovered that something I never pay much attention to matters -- the time signature of a style. In a piece I'm working on, I noticed it was in 3/4 and I wanted in in 4/4. I did much flailing about before I realized that the Style was the culprit and not some setting I'd previously made in which the program seemed to have gotten stuck on. So, this has caused me to ask now, how hard would it be to change a style's time signature. Honestly, I haven't messed around much with the Stylemaker. I find it confusing and counterintuitive. But if it will do what I need to have done, then I suppose I should learn how to use it. Any tips?
Yeah, if you go back and read my edited post, it's been changed substantially. I discovered after I posted it that I should have been paying closer attention to the style I selected.
... So, this has caused me to ask now, how hard would it be to change a style's time signature...
If it is a RealStyle, then it is an audio recording with that time signature.
In BiaB you can take a beat away (e.g. you can change the time signature of a 4/4 style to play as 3/4), but you cannot add a beat (you cannot change the time signature of a 3/4 style to 4/4).
Hope this helps.
BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
Actually, all tracks are MIDI. Does the same restriction apply?
Yes, it's the same for MIDI, you can take one away, but you cant add one.
Be aware also that the count in is based on the time signature of the style, not the number of beats you require in the first bar, so if it is a 4/4 style and you use <F5> to set the first bar to 3 beats, you'll still get a 4 beat count-in.
BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
I hear you, man. I spent the last 5 years using and battling the stylemaker. And there’s a lot of cool stuff possible and a lot that you can not do.
But I understand you really like the feel of the 3/4 style. Videotrack already rightly pointed out that a 3/4 will never grow up to be a 4/4. the stylemaker won’t help you there.
After years of experimenting, I still believe the stylemaker is worth its’ weight in gold. Make a nice midi track with the same feel as your 3/4, but in 4/4. Primarily bass, drums, stick with the C7 chord to keep it easy. And then import it in stylemaker. You will have one good style.
Intricacies like quantizing, note length, overlapping notes.... don’t bother with that just yet. Have fun.
If it’s really important for you I could help you out with the stylemaker or maybe even make a style for you....
Njoy!
Biab, Kontakt, Sampletank and lots of nice libraries, from Fluffy audio to Abbey Road drums. Check out these great contemporary Jazz Styles: www.jazzstylezz.com
When you write a style in 3/4 you only get to input 3 beats. So when you play it back, you can't play that fourth beat as it isn't there.
As noted, you can play 4/4 styles in three by omitting the 4th beat of the measure when you assign 3/4 to the style. Some styles work well this way, and some don't sound so good to my ears.
It's just the way it is, and there is no way around that.
There needs to be a better way of doing things. If you are using the BB Plugin in your DAW that has proper time signatures you need it all to fit and sync. With ReaTrak the mid/wav/mp3/mp4-video tracks can be recorded in any time signature and then will fit that same time signature in the DAW. I haven't looked into time signatures in Biab fully to see if something can be done or if it's in the too hard basket. Maybe it was just 4/4 3/4 originally and it's all set up for that so it has to be spread over multiple bars. If I record a set of 120bpm 5/4 Drums Bass Guitar UserTracks then put them in a 4/4 template, load them into BB the will play 5 beats over the bar but the tempo would be faster so you would need to slow it down to about 100bpm.
There needs to be a better way of doing things.<...>
I agree. I wish BiaB could do "real" time signatures, but there is probably no way to do this and remain back-compatible with the older versions of the app.
BiaB started pre-Windows DOS-5 so there weren't very many resources to use, and PG did a fantastic job with what they had to work with.
Unfortunately, like the inefficient QWERTY keyboard scheme, the non-transposing black and white piano keys, being compatible with legacy products has its down side.
Yes, this goes back to my tongue-in-cheek thought some years ago that they should create a brand new, loaded up with everything you guys can think of, Awesome Cool Dude version of Biab. This would have to be brand new, zero compatibility with older versions. A clean slate do over. Of course the standard version would also have to continue for the majority of users who have no use for the ACD version and insist that songs created in 1990 still work. That one could have a price drop while the Awesome Cool Dude is more. Otherwise we're just going around in circles with a lot of this stuff.
In order for this to happen there would need to be sales projections showing the ACD version would be worth it.
I don't know, Bob, it seems to me that yes, there should be an ACD version that breaks the old stuff, but given that PGMusic is well aware of the file format for current SGU/MGU files, it should be a simple matter to translate the parts from the old to the new, and then just save the file as "new". Maybe even a batch conversion utility. You won't be able to use newly saved files in older versions, but there should be no reason you couldn't bring older files into a new version. Actually, I suspect that would be the easiest part about creating an ACD version. Maybe it won't sound the same in the new version (given new features), but at least you could preserve the chord grid, the style name, and any explicit MIDI/Audio data associated with the file, etc.
Finale has done that with their upgrades; Noteworthy Composer has done that with their upgrades; I'm sure there are others, as well.
Would love to see (short list - nothing really new here):
* at least 8th note (preferably 16th note) chord resolution (conversion from old is simple math); 8th 16th note resolution can eliminate the need for "pushes"; just put the chord where it belongs * greater than 120 ticks per quarter note resolution * break the 255 bar limit * multiple MIDI ports * true support for essentially an time signature and where feasible, the style can adjust automatically (pick a 4/4 style, but select a 3/4 time signature (that then visually only gives you 3 quarter note slots for chords, as opposed to just entering 3 chords and leaving the 4th one blank, or similar) * extended song endings greater than 2 bars (at least 4 or 8) * add song intros, much like arranger keyboards do. Clearly this would need new styles, but perhaps old styles could be retrofitted for the new format * section identifiers for which you then optionally could create a song by entering IVCVCBCE (Intro-Verse-Chorus-Verse-Chorus-Bridge-Chorus-Ending) or similar. * separate MIDI and Audio tracks that don't overlap each other * ReWire support * better chord support (for example, sus2 is not the same as add9, dim and dim7 should be two separate chords (one includes the 7) not just visually on the chord grid, etc)
That's just to get started. All these things seem doable to me, but would clearly be a break from the old way of doing things.
John
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Yes, this goes back to my tongue-in-cheek thought some years ago that they should create a brand new, loaded up with everything you guys can think of, Awesome Cool Dude version of Biab. This would have to be brand new, zero compatibility with older versions. <...>
Bob
I definitely agree. 240ppq resolution minimum (240 up to 960 is better), real time signatures, the ability to tie a drum roll with a bass part in the StyleMaker, plus all the other things on the wish list that can be applied.
And they could include a utility to convert the old style and song files to the new format.
Microsoft Publisher, Quicken and a few other apps have done that, with a warning that once the files were converted to the new format, they wouldn't be able to be reversed.
As I'm a very basic coder, I have no idea how much work would be involved or even if it would be possible with BiaB's files.
I recently picked up a used Korg Pa3x arranger and am blown away by the styles. And this isn't the latest. The Pa4 is and then there's the Yamaha Genos. Those styles are mostly way better than Biab and I think the reason is the limitations of the Stylemaker. That's MIDI, some of the RT styles are really good too.
A new version of the Biab AI combined with a new Stylemaker that's competitive with these new arrangers could really be something great. Somehow combine the RT styles with better MIDI control. Then make it either a standalone app and/or a full modern VST plugin with all the other enhancements we've talked about for years and the Awesome Cool Dude is born!
I've done some work with Korg and Technics arranger keyboards and written styles for them.
At first they seem much better than BiaB styles, but that's deceiving:
They repeat too often, you'll learn to recoginize this. Usually four measures in schemes like pattern numbers 1-2-1-3-1-2-1-4
BiaB can store up to 400 patterns so that in the same situation different patterns can play. A probability tag can make the more common ones appear most often, and the ones with more 'personalty' surprise you once in a while
Unlike BiaB the real-time arranger keyboards don't know what chord is coming next so there isn't a pattern to anticipate that. Simplest example: BiaB knows when you are going from a V7 chord to a I at the end of a part - and if the style is written correctly there will be one or more patterns to walk the bass down in various accepted ways. There are many different "masks" that can appear in musicaly appropriate places (at least in the all MIDI styles)
The arranger keyboards I've worked with have had only 2 drum rolls, you can put dozens in BiaB
So at first take arranger keyboard styles sound better, but in the long run BiaB styles give you a much more interesting and musically correct output. This is especially true of the MIDI styles.
Yes, I'm aware of the limitations with repeated phrases but those phrases are much more detailed and realistic than most of the Biab midi styles. Maybe thats due to higher resolution? Playing an arranger vs Biab are two different things but the new ones sound really good. When was the last time you wrote styles for them, have you played the new ones? The best phrases are very good pro level arrangements. Don't get me wrong we can do a lot with Biab but when I sit at my Korg I can hear the style details and tbey are very good.
Both Korg and Yamaha have vast sound libraries to draw from and tailor each midi instrument part to work with those sounds. They use custom controllers to create articulations to example. A new Biab would need to go beyond basic GM into the world of custom midi. It would include it's own soundset and maybe include midi schemes to directly work with the big softsynths like Kontakt or Sampletank. Not simple patch selection, we have that now I mean all the custom midi control.
Yes, I'm aware of the limitations with repeated phrases but those phrases are much more detailed and realistic than most of the Biab midi styles. Maybe thats due to higher resolution? Playing an arranger vs Biab are two different things but the new ones sound really good. When was the last time you wrote styles for them, have you played the new ones? The best phrases are very good pro level arrangements. Don't get me wrong we can do a lot with Biab but when I sit at my Korg I can hear the style details and tbey are very good.
Both Korg and Yamaha have vast sound libraries to draw from and tailor each midi instrument part to work with those sounds. They use custom controllers to create articulations to example. A new Biab would need to go beyond basic GM into the world of custom midi. It would include it's own soundset and maybe include midi schemes to directly work with the big softsynths like Kontakt or Sampletank. Not simple patch selection, we have that now I mean all the custom midi control.
Just a few random thoughts.
Bob
The MIDI sounds of the arranger keyboards sound so good because they have very good hardware synthesizers in the box. They also have much better than 120ppq resolution and the styles can be tailored to the available sounds. They can have more than 5 instruments in a style as well. I've written some with 7.
Also writing a style that is more repetitive allows the style writer to have more and tighter coordination between the instrument parts. It's give and take, the 4 measures of repeat initially sound better, but the repetition and "no surprise" factor makes the musical content less interesting in the long run.
Playing a Yamaha sound on a Korg wouldn't sound as good because the synths are different, balance would be off, and the sounds are different. Of course to do that, you would have to export to MIDI and then build the styles on the other.
The last time I wrote styles for one was for the Korg PA80. I did some for the Korg i3, a Technics (forgot the model KN something) and the Yamaha Tyros (1). I also wrote styles for a couple of BiaB software competitors, and that's how I learned that BiaB styles come out more musical. Most of the other style writing was done under contract and some with a non-disclosure agreement.
I quit writing for everything but BiaB because I was spreading myself too thin, and writing styles for BiaB is more creative because the masks in the StyleMaker allow me to make a more musical style.
In BiaB there are ways to get around the 3/4 or 4/4 limitation, as long as you don't expect it to show in notation.
When I write my EXPANDED styles, each BiaB cell is a half measure. That allows up to 8 chords per measure, and ups the resolution to 240ppq. Unfortunately it creates other limitations in the StyleMaker, for example, you can't write a 2 measure pattern that will always play 1 and 2 together.
For 6/8 styles you can use any appropriate triplet (sw8) style and have each BiaB cell equal two 6/8 measures or one 12/8 measure. 5/4 can be written with one BiaB cell assigned to 3 beats and the next to 2.
I'd rather see native time signatures than these work-arounds, but with some creative thinking you can do a lot that BiaB wasn't designed to do.
And I still say that with a good hardware synthesizer you can sound 95% as good as the RealTracks in tone and have a more musical output using MIDI styles in the long run.
That way you can have both RTs and MIDI, using the right tool for the song you are working on.
Good and accurate summary. For Korg arrangers the PaX series are the pro level ones. Biab allows us to change styles or mix in a single instrument from a different style anywhere in a song to provide more variation and so does the PaX pro series. It has four STS buttons that can be preset to do the same thing plus it can mix in a midi part or audio part that the user loaded in. And, the new ones are not all midi either. Yamaha is already using Real Drums and the new upcoming Korg Pa5x will have that plus some version of Real Tracks.
Anyway, my ramblings are just a fantasy wishlist of what a brand new, from the ground up Biab might look like.
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the stylemaker won’t help you there.
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