It isn't really a show stopper because many of us have used BIAB successfully for years, in my case over 27. It's just something to request that would be nice to have and adapt to the multiple standards that unfortunately still exist. Since this discrepancy has existed for decades among all kinds of music software and hardware, we learned to live with it and make music. The case is clear, and let's give PG Music a chance to work with it. If they don't, though, the world is not over.
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I did some testing and got the Vocal Wizard to work. For my situation (if the vocalist is not very knowledgeable with BIAB) is is probably best for me to use BIAB to run the Vocal Wizard myself and send the .wav file tracks out in the key the vocalist needs. Here is the whole process including how I work around BIAB not using the "International Standardization Organization (ISO)" pitch standard.
Get the vocalists range in the ISO standard suggesting they use one of the tuners in the list in post #1. Place the vocalist's range in my database so I always have it but document it in combo ISO and BIAB format. Example below. SoAndSo's range is (A2-A3) to (C5-C6) where the 1st number in brackets is the ISO Standard & the 2nd number is BIAB. When they request a song I enter the BIAB range in the vocal wizard. I press the "Transpose now" button which appears near the bottom of the vocal wizard. I close down the Vocal Wizard and reopen it. Near the bottom in the black background section it will tell me if I have to do a "melody only transpose". If it says I need to do this I close the wizard and do a "melody only transpose" then open the wizard again. I do a final check of the bottom black background section to be sure there is no melody transpose suggestion. If there is no suggestion I am basically done. However I might want to analyze the vocal wizard upper messages to see if the key can better be centered. If this is the case I do a manual judgement adjustment to the whole song so the vocalist does not need to reach to their extreme range note. The whole process is finished so I can now send the tracks out as .wav files for the vocalist and other club members to work with. The vocalist may use the midi melody to learn the tune by ear then apply their own style.
So why is the wizard requiring a two pass process. I think it is because it figured out if the first pass needs to shift the real tracks up or down to minimize the real tracks adjustment distortion. It does what it has to do and at least tells you that you have to take a second step to adjust the midi melody up or down by an octave.
If the vocalist is really good with BIAB and wants to do this themselves they could get their range by singing directly into the BIAB guitar tuner with a mike. Otherwise they can use their favorite tuner, figure out if it reports using ISO standard using the ISO standard pitch table also shown in post #1 and keep a record of it as I do with the same format I used "Example: My vocal range is (A2-A3) to (C5-C6)".
I still prefer that BIAB has the option to use the ISO standard. Like I said before BIAB not having the option to use the option to use the "International Standardization Organization (ISO)" music pitches table is like trying to sell a shiny new Bently car with a big scratch on it.
As per the prior post's analogy it seems I am still shaking the BIAB C4 versus C5 dust off in that I was not 100% sure if I had actually tested the output frequency the BIAB notation is producing. So this time I did a test but I documented it in my reminder database so that a few years from now I do not forget and have to waste time testing it again (it was a challenge because I had to select the correct midi instrument to get the tuner to pick up the sound). Here it is.
================================================================================= To test the actual pitch that Band in a box (BIAB) is sounding see the notes text box of this calendar entry. The result of the test is this this. When you enter notes in the Band In A Box notation window the notes actually do sound at the correct pitches where middle C sounds as ISO C4 at frequency 261.626. The confusion occurs because BIAB reports this incorrectly as C5 in three places (In its notation window, in its Vocal Wizard and in its guitar tuner).
Procedure: Run the NCH Perfect Pitch Software on the asus machine. We know for sure this software works on the "International Standardization Organization (ISO)" music pitches table scientific notation standard where C4 is middle C at frequency 261.626 .
Plug the computer mike into the asus machine mike in plug. This plug is on top of the asus machine on the left side. The right side is the headset output.
Place the computer mike inside the main machine logitech bass speaker sound hole. This is the machine that BIAB is running on.
On the main machine run the BIAB song file Test_BIAB_Notation_ActualPitch.MGU
This BIAB file has 2 bars of middle C4 and 2 bars of middle D4 written in the midi melody.
Make sure the midi instrument is set to Instrument 5 electric piano. If you use vibes the NCH software does not pick up the signal. The piano sounds similar to a fender rhodes.
In BIAB highlight the 4 bars and press f10 to play the notes over and over in a loop.
When you run this the NCH tuner reports that the note written in the middle C position of the staff does in fact sound as ISO C4 at frequency 261.626. the note written just above at D4 does sound correctly as ISO D4 at frequency 293.665.
Just to set the record straight for others who read this thread. When you say... "The confusion occurs because BIAB reports this incorrectly as C5 in three places (In its notation window, in its Vocal Wizard and in its guitar tuner)."
It is not incorrect to call Middle C, C5. A number of really big music companies do that (as my previous post points out). There are also a number of really big music companies that call Middle C, C3.
It's important to note that MIDI does not use C3, C4, C5 as standard references. MIDI's standard references are note numbers. In all honesty, I find it easy to remember that Middle C is note 60 (=5x12).... thus one octave lower is 48 (=4x12), another octave lower is 36 (=3x12); conversely higher octaves = 6x12, 7x12, etc. So, as long as I can remember my 12 times table, all octaves of C are covered.
I appreciate that you want Middle C to be C4 and I fully understand why. I hope you win the battle
It is not incorrect to call Middle C, C5. A number of really big music companies do that (as my previous post points out). There are also a number of really big music companies that call Middle C, C3.
IF Middle C on the piano had one name Noel we and many others would have more time to spend on more productive things. By saying having more than one name is okay you are essentially saying that wasting time on forums discussing these things or trying to figure out what is going on is okay. I am sure you won't consider changing your name every time you post here would essentailly be doing the same thing as these companies are doing by sticking with their approach? I assume you know that answer. Poor communication. Poor communication is the biggest reason marriages fail. Is that okay too? I am sure you would think not.
I should emphasize that the first post now has an extract from one of the Wikis that says that it is okay to have negative numbers in the OSO standard.
If these companies are doing it their own way because it is easier to program then to remove the confusion (or reduce it at least) their numbering system could be changed such that there is a letter in front. So (C4 is ISO) (Ca3 is Roland) (Cb5 is Yamaha). They stick the letter in to indicate it is a different system than the ISO standard (extremely easy to program since you do it during reporting only). Not only that we can have up to 26 companies going against the standard...lol. Well there you go! Maybe I should be a marriage counselor...lol.
... IF Middle C on the piano had one name Noel we and many others would have more time to spend on more productive things. By saying having more than one name is okay you are essentially saying that wasting time on forums discussing these things or trying to figure out what is going on is okay. Why don't you change your name every time you post here? I assume you know that answer. Poor communication. Poor communication is the bigger reason marriages fail. Is that okay too? ...
John, I've been supportive of your intentions throughout this thread, but other people can and will always make constructive comments. That's what forum discussions are for. I sense that your most recent reply is unnecessarily critical of a respected forum member who
1: simply stated facts
2: also hoped you could be successful.
Perhaps you are having a bad day and frustrated that this isn't immediately resolved. If so I can understand a little more, but let's all keep a balance. We are all working from the same page here. Have a great and safe Christmas. Trevor
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I see it different. Everyone makes mistakes. I make lots of them (I have gone back and fixed at least 10 to 20 errors in my posts in this thread alone). Pointing out what I consider a simple error is not showing disrespect. Encouraging poor communication is nothing more than a simple error.
My suggestion to have a display such as "C4 Cb5" on a screen is improving communication and this in respecting people's time. Doing this is easy. It is essentially the same technique I used in my reminder database for recording our club member's vocal range (ISO standard first and the variant next right beside it). So I have essentially with this idea given PG-Music an extremely easy solution to the problem and I would 100% accept it (even recommend it to save time and money). Small letter "b" could represent the BIAB representation. This idea respects PG-Music's time because it will take a lot less time to program. Actually both of you can be given part credit for this idea. With out the push back on my post I never would have got the idea.
So I did make a change to my post. I added this. "Is that okay too? I am sure you would think not?". In other words I am sure Noel will understand what I am saying. I think it goes without saying that Noel will not be changing his name with every post. It is simply a parallel to get my point across. I went back and change my post to state this.
Update: I added an update to the sample MS-Access computer code in the next post to handle the fact that the Piano Roll does not have room for the full display of ISO standard and BIAB representation side by side.
Hopefully this post brings quick closure to this issue. I will create a link directly to this post in Post #1 at the very top.
Regarding the solution I came up with in the prior post I went ahead and computer programmed it. I suspect it is the (quickest, easiest, cheapest and maybe even the best) solution to this confusion-creating time-wasting poor-communication problem. I do not know C so I programmed it in MS-Access. I tested it and it works. It took 30 minutes to complete. After the same function is programmed in C all that needs to be done is make room for the wider output at each display location in BIAB then insert the function call immediately before the move of the display-variable to the display. This is the command
The test results and the complete code are below. The small letter "b" stands for BIAB representation.
Test Results of the MSGBOX command: C5 becomes (C4 bC5) putting the small letter "b" first avoids the C flat confusion that (C4 Cb5) creates. C0 becomes (C-1 bC0) C9 becomes (C8 bC9) A5 becomes (A4 bA5)
To be honest I am not sure why anyone would want to know the BIAB representation. Maybe someone would want it because of their use with other programs and export/imports involved. This solution leaves all such code untouched, respects the ISO standard, provides the needed info and does not rock the boat (very low risk).
Code:
Private Sub cmdTempTest_Click() 'Test function
Dim strExampleCode As String
strExampleCode = funcJWInputBox(14, "C5", "Enter the BIAB code such as C5 for Midde C")
MsgBox funcProperCommunication(strExampleCode) 'Test Command
End Sub
Public Function funcProperCommunication(strNon_ISO_Code As String) As String
Dim strISO_Code As String
Dim intISO_OctaveNumber As Integer
Dim strDisplayCode As String
Dim strNote As String
Dim strBIAB_OctaveNumber As String
Dim intBIAB_OctaveNumber As Integer
Dim strBIAB_OutCode As String
strNote = Left(strNon_ISO_Code, 1)
strBIAB_OctaveNumber = Right(strNon_ISO_Code, 1)
intBIAB_OctaveNumber = strBIAB_OctaveNumber
strBIAB_OutCode = "b" & strNote & strBIAB_OctaveNumber
intISO_OctaveNumber = intBIAB_OctaveNumber - 1
strISO_Code = strNote & intISO_OctaveNumber
strDisplayCode = "(" & strISO_Code & " " & strBIAB_OutCode & ")"
funcProperCommunication = strDisplayCode
End Function
I modified the MS-Access computer code showing in the above post and I display the revised version below. The change allows the displaying of the scientific notation that appears in the piano roll which does not have enough room to display both the ISO standard format and the BIAB representation. Here is where a user preference global parameter would be needed to be referenced (I hard coded that preference in the function which is called). The test results and code are below. So this covers everything and is extremely easy to do. It is still a very low risk change, it will make BIAB look better in the eyes of most musicians and remove the confusion which wastes people's time. The "insufficient room to display both" factory default really should be ISO since it is the most popular and the recognized standard as indicated in post #1. However, as PG-Music no doubt knows, it would be wise to point this out to users (especially existing users) so they know of this change and so that they can keep it as is if they wish. If BIAB provides all the info from post #1 at the appropriate time I suspect most will choose the ISO standard. From what I can tell there is room for the ISO C-1 code on the piano roll since there appears to be a gap there already. Another idea would be to have a hover over popup which shows the two naming methods and even the frequency or more.
Test Results: 'Comment: the display for the notation window. In the test code Y means it can display both C5 becomes (C4 bC5)
'Comment: the display for the Vocal Wizard. In the test code Y means it can display both C5 becomes (C4 bC5)
'Comment: the display for the guitar tuner. In the test code Y means it can display both C5 becomes (C4 bC5)
'Comment: the display for the piano roll. In the test code N means it can not display both C5 becomes (C4) because the user set a global preference to see the ISO code rather than the BIAB code.
Code:
Private Sub cmdTempTest_Click()
Dim strExampleCode As String
strExampleCode = funcJWInputBox(14, "C5", "Enter the BIAB representation code such as C5 for Midde C")
'Comment: the display for the notation window. Y means it can display both
MsgBox funcProperCommunication(strExampleCode, "Y")
'Comment: the display for the Vocal Wizard. Y means it can display both
MsgBox funcProperCommunication(strExampleCode, "Y")
'Comment: the display for the guitar tuner. Y means it can display both
MsgBox funcProperCommunication(strExampleCode, "Y")
'Comment: the display for the piano roll. N means it can not display both
MsgBox funcProperCommunication(strExampleCode, "N")
End Sub
Public Function funcProperCommunication(strNon_ISO_Code As String, strRoomForBoth As String) As String
Dim strUser_RoomForOnly1_Preference As String
strUser_RoomForOnly1_Preference = "ISO" 'Note: the other setting is BIAB.
Dim strISO_Code As String
Dim intISO_OctaveNumber As Integer
Dim strDisplayCode As String
Dim strNote As String
Dim strBIAB_OctaveNumber As String
Dim intBIAB_OctaveNumber As Integer
Dim strBIAB_OutCode As String
strNote = Left(strNon_ISO_Code, 1)
strBIAB_OctaveNumber = Right(strNon_ISO_Code, 1)
intBIAB_OctaveNumber = strBIAB_OctaveNumber
strBIAB_OutCode = "b" & strNote & strBIAB_OctaveNumber
intISO_OctaveNumber = intBIAB_OctaveNumber - 1
strISO_Code = strNote & intISO_OctaveNumber
If strRoomForBoth = "Y" Then
strDisplayCode = "(" & strISO_Code & " " & strBIAB_OutCode & ")"
Else
If strUser_RoomForOnly1_Preference = "ISO" Then
strDisplayCode = strISO_Code
End If
If strUser_RoomForOnly1_Preference = "BIAB" Then
strDisplayCode = strBIAB_OutCode
End If
End If
funcProperCommunication = strDisplayCode
End Function
A few interesting bits of knowledge with link and extract. I may add to this as I think of things.
Where is International Standardization Organization (ISO) located and how old is it?Link Geneva, Switzerland The International Organization for Standardization was founded in 1947 and is headquartered in Geneva, Switzerland. The organization began in the 1920s as the International Federation of the National Standardizing Associations (ISA).
What is the international standard organization mission?Link ISO is an independent, non-governmental international organization with a membership of 165 national standards bodies. Through its members, it brings together experts to share knowledge and develop voluntary, consensus-based, market relevant International Standards that support innovation and provide solutions to global challenges. You'll find our Central Secretariat in Geneva, Switzerland. Learn more about our structure and how we are governed.l Standardizing Associations (ISA).
Does Scientific pitch notation have other names? Scientific pitch notation (or SPN, also known as American standard pitch notation (ASPN) and international pitch notation (IPN))[1][unreliable source?] is a method of specifying musical pitch by combining a musical note name (with accidental if needed) and a number identifying the pitch's octave.
why does the ISO use scientific pitch notation?A440 (pitch Standard) This standard was taken up by the International Organization for Standardization in 1955 (reaffirmed by them in 1975) as ISO 16. It is designated A4 in scientific pitch notation because it occurs in the octave that starts with the fourth C key on a standard 88-key piano keyboard.
What is the most popular musical pitch notation? The two notation systems most commonly used today are the Helmholtz pitch notation system and the scientific pitch notation system.
What is the most popular musical instrument in the world?link #1 – Piano. It might surprise you to know that 21 million Americans play the piano! ... My Comment: This is probably why the ISO Scientific Notation uses this table. Because it matches the C notes on the most popular instrument in the world and from what I have found so far only 2 large church organs that exist in the world can play notes below the human hearing range (below the piano).
Here is PG-Music located. British Columbia Canada (my country).
I am happy to discover the free Audacity DAW uses ISO standard scientific notation or analyzing pitches. I discovered this because I am using Audacity to try to figure out if the drummer in one of our songs is correct about the bass player being a bit out of tune. I think maybe he is but I want a second opinion from Audacity. To get a solid framework from which to work I tuned up my guitar using the NCH Perfect pitch tuner which uses the ISO standard and determined that Audacity reports the same ISO standard pitch for the note (D3). Do do this in Audacity I recorded my D string then highlight the recorded note, go into Audacity (Effect, Change pitch) and get the value it is saying.
I discovered another place PG-Music would have to make a display update in order to eliminate confusion and wasted user time. The attached picture shows a very easy solution. Everything stays the same except upon display of the dialog box and after update of the Note text box the ISO standard is displayed to the left of the BIAB representation. I don't think any user would have an issue with this. Obviously the ISO area would be protected from user update.
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