Hi everyone! I debated where to put this. It didn't seem like the woodshedding forum was the right place, and since it's directly related to my song writing I figured I would just ask here.
What is the fastest reasonable tempo to expect a guitarist to play 16th note runs? My song is at 155 bpm and I know a pianist or violinist could play them that fast. I'd never expect a bass to be anything but muddy at that speed, but I have no idea about a guitar. Is it reasonable to expect 16ths out of a guitarist's fingers any faster than 120 bpm? Will the guitar strings support anything faster, or will they get muddy like a bass would?
The MIDI I brought into my song plays the notes clean, sharp, and distinct--but a computer can do a lot of things human fingers cannot. I suspect that maybe a lot of these notes might be bends and slides in the hands of a real guitar player, but there was no way to actually write that into my notation software.
I really appreciate your input on this. It's kinda tough, writing for instruments I don't know how to play.
Love is always worth the risk.
HP laptop; Windows 10 Home 64 bit; core i5; 2.40 Ghz; 8 GB RAM; 256 GB hard drive; BIAB 2021 Build 835.
It depends on the player. As a bassist, I would have had no problems — but I held a symphony chair on the double bass so my experience is meaningless.
I played for nearly 50 years and cannot tell you what average would be. I suspect that many of the pros in my circle are above whatever that is while many are below that.
I would get a metronome app that lets you tap in tempi — many free ones out there — and tap along as you listen. I like Pro Metronome and have never gone with the in-app paid upgrades. You'll figure out pretty quickly what's too fast for those who would play your music.
BIAB 2024 Audiophile Mac 24Core/60CoreGPU M2 MacStudioUltra/8TB/192GB Sequoia, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP Digital Performer11, LogicPro, Finale27/Dorico/Encore/SmartScorePro64/Notion6 /Overture5
It depends on the player. As a bassist, I would have had no problems — but I held a symphony chair on the double bass so my experience is meaningless.
So NOT meaningless!! It tells me the upper limit from a really skilled professional, and also corrects my misapprehension about the bass. I've been maybe simplifying my bass lines too much--the last low instrument I wrote for was tuba and that would definitely be either mud or have to be a lip slur on tuba! Even for college level horn players, my teacher said the upper limit on 16ths was 120--and I haven't had anything else to go by, so I really appreciate your input on strings!
Originally Posted By: Mike Halloran
I would get a metronome app that lets you tap in tempi — many free ones out there — and tap along as you listen. I like Pro Metronome and have never gone with the in-app paid upgrades. You'll figure out pretty quickly what's too fast for those who would play your music.
Aaack, no, I can't. I have bilateral CTS and it's impossible for me to move my fingers that fast. If it weren't for the carpal tunnels, believe me, I'd be making a living playing sax.
Well now I know that what I wrote isn't impossible, even if it's doggoned difficult. Thank you, Mike!! I truly appreciate it!
Love is always worth the risk.
HP laptop; Windows 10 Home 64 bit; core i5; 2.40 Ghz; 8 GB RAM; 256 GB hard drive; BIAB 2021 Build 835.
Aaack, no, I can't. I have bilateral CTS and it's impossible for me to move my fingers that fast.
N o, no, no — you misunderstand! Tap the quarter notes. If you're hearing 16th notes, multiply x 4 or 8 if you're hearing 32nd notes.
It's simple math. I should have been more clear.
Back to the bass. When Stanley Clarke's first solo album came out, I was 20. After my friends and I heard Spanish Phases... and picked our jaws off the ground, we came to our senses and figured out that it was possible for human beings to play pizzicato like that — he could (we could play that fast with a with a bow—kind'a have to for Beethoven's 6th). Though none of us developed his mastery of technique (or ever needed it), we taught each other to shred decently — just a matter of training our right hands.
If you've never heard this, prepare to be blown away.
Except for the occasional electric bass solo in fusion bands where showing off was what one did, I never played like that. The only blisteringly fast recording I ever made was on nylon stringed guitar — analog tape where it couldn't be faked. I never owned an electric I could play as fast
BIAB 2024 Audiophile Mac 24Core/60CoreGPU M2 MacStudioUltra/8TB/192GB Sequoia, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP Digital Performer11, LogicPro, Finale27/Dorico/Encore/SmartScorePro64/Notion6 /Overture5
Thank you for the link, Mike!! No, I've not heard it before; got it playing as I type. He's got some nimble fingers, there!
I'm not sure I'd be able to tell if I'm asking too much, even using a metronome. I know my tempo as soon as I write the initial melody; just didn't know the physical limitations of human hands interacting with strings. But now I know, so thank you! Really interesting point about acoustic guitars being faster than electric guitars. Classical and Spanish guitar music is certainly filled with fast runs and riffs. Do you think it's the string weight that makes the difference? I've noticed there are varying weights (hope that's the right term) for electric guitar strings.
Mario, I write lead sheets and arrangements in a notation program. The original melody and chords get worked out on my keyboard first, but once I start writing parts it's all on the computer. I wish so much that I could play this fast, because I could just set the keyboard voice to blues guitar and go for it, bring in an audio that would fit the rock style, but my fingers just can't fly like that anymore. And I remember that my keyboard can work as a MIDI controller, but I've never explored that. BIAB is my first foray into anything MIDI.
Love is always worth the risk.
HP laptop; Windows 10 Home 64 bit; core i5; 2.40 Ghz; 8 GB RAM; 256 GB hard drive; BIAB 2021 Build 835.
Cathie, if you are working with MIDI then tempo is not relevant. By that I mean the sound will be the same regardless of tempo. So lets say you have a fast 155 BPM song that has a long 16th note guitar run in it. Slow the tempo down to say 40 BPM, play said run, and then return the tempo to 155 BPM. The guitar sound will be identical at both BPMs. Presto you have your fast guitar riff that you played!
If you already knew this then sorry for the redundancy.
Whenever I get something stuck in the back of my throat, I dislodge it by drinking a beer. It's called the Heineken Maneuver.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
As a guitar player, playing 16ths at 155 is going to be according to the skill level of the player. Whether it's 16th, 32nds, or 64ths is totally dependent upon the player's skills.
I recently did a song at 155bpm and there's some pretty fast playing in the song. Both tapping as well as single stroke picking.
If you already knew this then sorry for the redundancy.
Oh my word I had NO idea!! So you're saying if I play the part myself fairly slowly, using the keyboard as my MIDI controller, I can change the tempo of the MIDI afterwards? Except I don't know how I would keep the guitar tone if I didn't record it as audio. I have no objections to MIDI itself, but the problem I keep having is that the MIDI guitar patches available to me are all clean, and the rock style is distorted, so they don't fit together well.
I know this is probably operator error again. There must be some way to get a guitar patch for a rock song. Sheesh. Still slidin' down that slippery mountain slope.
Love is always worth the risk.
HP laptop; Windows 10 Home 64 bit; core i5; 2.40 Ghz; 8 GB RAM; 256 GB hard drive; BIAB 2021 Build 835.
As a guitar player, playing 16ths at 155 is going to be according to the skill level of the player. Whether it's 16th, 32nds, or 64ths is totally dependent upon the player's skills.
I recently did a song at 155bpm and there's some pretty fast playing in the song. Both tapping as well as single stroke picking.
HOLY CANNOLI, Herb!! That's fantastic!! And yes, I heard those notes flashing by! So amazing! Your song tells me what I wrote is totally playable by a skilled guitarist, and that's good enough for me. Thanks again!!!
I can, btw, totally see this being played in an ampitheater or stadium. Dunno what it takes to license a song and get it heard, but I think there's gotta be a band that would want this one.
Love is always worth the risk.
HP laptop; Windows 10 Home 64 bit; core i5; 2.40 Ghz; 8 GB RAM; 256 GB hard drive; BIAB 2021 Build 835.
Oh my word I had NO idea!! So you're saying if I play the part myself fairly slowly, using the keyboard as my MIDI controller, I can change the tempo of the MIDI afterwards? Except I don't know how I would keep the guitar tone if I didn't record it as audio. I have no objections to MIDI itself, but the problem I keep having is that the MIDI guitar patches available to me are all clean, and the rock style is distorted, so they don't fit together well.
I know this is probably operator error again. There must be some way to get a guitar patch for a rock song. Sheesh. Still slidin' down that slippery mountain slope.
Yes that is exactly what I am saying. But it will only work with MIDI. It will not work with audio.
There are a lot of guitar patches or VSTis available so I'm sure you could find at least one that would work for you. Also note that you can take a MIDI acoustic guitar, convert to audio, and run it through an amp simulation and completely change the guitar's tone to an electric.
Plus there are a ton of guitar VSTis and patches for the full and free versions of Kontakt for sale. Note if you get the free Kontakt Player and want to purchase some guitar patches make sure that the docs/web site say that it is Kontakt Player ready. Some patches are for the full version of Kontakt.
I know very little about Sampletank. I have the free version but only to use the previous version of Mellotron that I have.
Also the free Amplitube is a good amp sim to have.
Note that I have the full version of Kontakt and Amplitube.
{edit} If you need help feel free to ask.
Last edited by MarioD; 05/05/2112:43 PM.
Whenever I get something stuck in the back of my throat, I dislodge it by drinking a beer. It's called the Heineken Maneuver.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Oh my GOSH Mario, how kind!!! I wouldn't have known what to look for, nor whether anything I found was any good. I emailed the post to myself so I won't lose it.
Y'all are blowing me away with your kindness. Thank you to everyone who's taken the time to help me!!
Love is always worth the risk.
HP laptop; Windows 10 Home 64 bit; core i5; 2.40 Ghz; 8 GB RAM; 256 GB hard drive; BIAB 2021 Build 835.
Dunno what it takes to license a song and get it heard, …
Live? Not your issue as long as the promoter or venue is licensed with the PRO or the song’ publisher.
Quote:
I know very little about Sampletank. I have the free version …
Unlike Kontakt, The SampleTank instrument player is free. The various price points are for the number of licensed libraries you get but the player is the same for all of them. UVI is the same.
They don’t make this very clear. I learned this after doing a major upgrade that included ST3 and then had major problems in Mojave. SampleTank 4 had just come out and I was not happy about having to upgrade something I bought a few weeks earlier. Ok… I’ll download ST4 CS (the free version) since it comes with some libraries, right? Every problem I was having went away since all of my libraries now worked in ST4. That’s when I finally understood. I did need an upgrade but the one I needed was free. Meanwhile, IK Support was trying to help me get ST3 working over Mojave. BTW, 4 has a learning curve so watch the intro videos.
Back to the OP, SampleTank 4 CS, UVI Player and the free version of Kontakt/Guitar Rig all come with libraries. After you get familiar with these and MIDI basics, they and other companies have plenty to sell you — don’t worry, they’ll email you a lot. The learning period is on their dime, not yours.
BIAB 2024 Audiophile Mac 24Core/60CoreGPU M2 MacStudioUltra/8TB/192GB Sequoia, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP Digital Performer11, LogicPro, Finale27/Dorico/Encore/SmartScorePro64/Notion6 /Overture5
Thank you for the kind words. Yes, a skilled guitar player can easily play that and more.
If you are doing this with MIDI, you can do as Mario mentioned. Slow it down and get the notes in there that you want. In a DAW like sonar, it is possible to get 128th note resolution (or higher) if you really need that kind of speed. Add the parts and notes you need and then speed it up.
I heard what you said about keeping the tone like you want. Here's your solution. REAL STRAT. I've heard folks who were using this and as a guitarist it was really difficult to tell that it wasn't actually a real guitar or player. Since it triggers off midi, you can record the parts slowly and then speed it up. RS doesn't care, and since the samples are not affected by tempo, like audio, you get the tone you want at any speed.
It's not free, but it's also not killer expensive. Point is, it will do what you want.
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