PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums Band-in-a-Box for Windows using biab live?

I know, from years on the forum, that most of the users here use BIAB to create backing tracks that they play with other equipment when performing. I really want to perform my tracks using BIAB as my player. I think that by using the conductor feature I would have the flexibility I would need on the gig. i also think there may be some tricks on other features that could be used. I wonder why I couldn't use BIAB as a basic drum machine or drum and bass only player.

So what I'm really looking for is there any regular users out there using BIAB this way. I'm really not interested in playing the tracks on a mp3 player but using BIAB on stage.

I would also like to see a separate board addressing just this subject.

I gigged live with BIAB/Laptop and PA a number of times back 20 years ago. I was very selective regarding where I played. Only close friends and family. Mainly because my level of talent was marginal (can you believe 20 years later and I would decribe my playing exactly the same). But I can tell you it can work fine. No need for the juke-box feature, which was marginal then and I don't belive that has changed. I had the set list ready to go from a dedicated directory, with a couple pushes of the buttons.

I only had one very bad experience and it was not the fault of BIAB or the laptop. I had a small mixer I was using to output to my amp. Vocal Mic, Guitar and Computer all into the mixer going to the house PA. I sat on stage sweating bullets for 10 minutes trying to figure out why no sound was coming out of the mixer. A damn button had been pushed which I fialed to recognize and could not find for the life of me. Some kind souls came up and found the button for me, but it was pure trama. This was a church group and I believe they were all praying for me! I eventually got rid of the mixer and purchased my own small PA. And I learned what all the buttons do to keep it working.

Dan

thank you Dan for the reply. It's interesting that you had no problems playing out with BIAB 20 years ago.

I used it live well over 20 years ago, on an Atari with an external SCSI drive. I had no issues, but it was a complicated setup, because I also needed to have a heap of 19" rack equipment etc. There were no RealTracks and no VSTi's then

I've never used it live, I always made WAV files, converted them to mp3 and played them on stage with my computer.

Why?

1) The output of BiaB by design is generic, and that is the correct approach. In a MIDI sequencer or DAW I can add any song specific licks.

2) Lack of real introductions. I know I can add the last 4 bars of a repeated A section to make an intro, but sometimes that doesn't work

3) Endings, the BiaB endings, depending on the style, are sometimes ragged, especially with the Real Tracks.

Two very important parts of the song are the intro and ending. The intro sets up the listener's expectations, and the ending leaves the lasting impression.

But my situation might be different from yours. I am in a duo that is in a very competitive market. By making my backing tracks absolutely as good as I can make them, it makes us sound better than our competition. Add our vocal and instrumental talent, and we've been gigging for 37 years, never lacking for work (except for the COVID drought), and we charge higher prices than our competition.

If you are curious, check out http://www.nortonmusic.com/backing_tracks.html how I make and use backing tracks on stage.

My way may not be the best way for you. There is more than one right way to make music.

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

To add to my post, I never use it live nowadays. I have the backing track arrangements exported and available as audio files. This is far, far more convenient and reduces the opportunity for anything to go wrong. That would be my recommendation to you also.

I realize most of you prefer saving waves and mp3's to use on stage. but one of the biggest selling points of BIAB is the fact that it plays slightly different patterns on each performance (unless you freeze the tracks). This gives you just a little more lifelike performance. Important to me.

You could generate and save several different audio versions, or use BiaB live as you say (as long as waiting for a generation is not critical). Whatever works best for you is the direction you should take.

I've done multiple takes of songs, but unlike how AudioTrack suggested, mine have been different tempos, styles and/or arrangements.

Whichever way you choose, I hope it works out perfectly for you.

Notes ♫

Thanks Notes, that's another and better option than I had considered in my suggestions. This definitely can provide more ideal variations on any specific song.

Actually I have created both Pop and Bossa variations at slightly different tempos of the same song, but I failed to mention how such adaptable variations can be beneficial, and instead concentrated my reply on just the concept of different generations of the same song/style to provide variation.

I need to keep that tip in mind.

Multiple takes of songs can also address my own issue of how to handle how many solos we want on a song.
With jazz and a variable line-up, that question can change right at the last moment. Of course if a backing track has already started, it's just too late.

I have to add, though, that we rarely use backing tracks at all, unless we're just two or three handed.

Mrs. Notes and I use backing tracks for everything.

I make them myself, sometimes with BiaB, sometimes from scratch (one part at a time) and sometimes a combination of both. We currently have over 600 tracks.

Some of our competitors use karaoke tracks, but I don't like them. First, they may not be in the optimal key for our voices.

Second of all they are mixed like the recording, where I mix mine more for a live band sound - more backbeat, slightly exaggerated grooves, and often just a little faster than the recording

Finally, I can modify the arrangement, make it longer, leave room for an ad-lib solo for the solo hog (that would be me) to self-indulge a little, and perhaps even reinterpret the song.

It might take a day or two to do one track, but if I'm lucky, I'll get to play it hundreds of times on hundreds of gigs.

We were in a few bands together before we started our duo. The last straw was in 1984 we were out of work a total of 3 months due to people quitting the band for personal problems.

I bought a 4 track reel-to-real Teac tape recorder, recorded the parts, and mixed to cassette. When digital came, I embraced MIDI.

Since we started gigging in our duo in 1985, we have never been out of work, except for the COVID 'vacation'.

That's 37 years in the same band. If the time is right, I tell my audience the only band that has been together longer than us is The Rolling Stones. And if that works and the timing is still right, I add, "And we still have all the original members."

I make a living doing music and nothing but music, and I do it with my soul mate, Mrs. Notes.

I'm not rich, but I think I won the life lottery.

Notes ♫

Where do we like, Bob?

+++ Digitech Trio +++ They are available used on E-Bay or Reverb.com for about $100 US. There is also a Digitech Trio + that includes a looper.

I used Band in a Box live from time to time. Truly enjoyed it.

Now that I want to use it again, I have trouble using it.
The commands (ctrl-Numpad-1) aren't usable on a laptop without numpad. Shiftlock and then pressing the number doesn't seem to translate well to Band in a box.
Result is, you have three different instances where you can use Band in a Box for live playing.
°The LOOP window
°The CONDUCTOR Window
°Key shortcuts
Oh: and in the Conductor window you can use MIDI notes to assign functions. Except, when you press "Show Midi Notes" you go to help, but not to a specific place in the helpfunction. And typing in the words "show midi notes", doesn't get you anywhere either.


I truly think, with touchscreens nowadays, BIAB should enable users to easily move in and out of tunes but in a uniform way: one set of loops and go-to's, accessible with some different methods. All this based either on chorus number, intro, ending, tag or based on chorus, verse or assignable letters AABAD structures... I don't know:
°MIDI notes (perhaps on a specific channel)
°Laptop-keyboard shortcuts
°Touchscreen buttons.
At the same time: the chord and notation window should show clearly that biab is looping. Not just once (a yellow post-it that pops up and then disappears, is what is used since 2012).

I remember playing once, and, either wrongly entering (numpad) 6 instead of 5: ending the song abruptly or forgetting to press Ctrl before entering (numpad) 2: causing the song to not loop nor start normally. It was a frustrating mess at times. And, well, sometimes it worked just fine.

I understand very well why people avoid using Band in a Box for live playing today. Personally, I don't know of anyone using it today. Not even here on the forum, so it seems.

And that's sad, because -however bad the notation window is- you can see the melody and chords like on a chart and play along... which is something other software is lacking completely.

I have had success using BB live. It has been reliable. I used it for the first time 9 months ago as live music started coming back and I needed to beef up my soft classical guitar player and sensitive singer-songwriter persona I had always used for background music in nice restaurants. I got a series of bookings at a performance trailer for an energetic 2 hour gig for street festivals. I needed a fast makeover to change my style. There wasn't time to dump everything to wave files and I kept making chart changes (drums and bass higher in mixes, guitars lower because I would cover those parts).
I put the BB files in a directory and use the jukebox. I renamed the songs with a 2 letter code AA, BB, etc. to control the order they played. If I wanted to move a song that was GG to an earlier song I would change it to BC to reorder it earlier.

I set each song to "no count-in" because I couldn't hear the count-in in a noisy environment and it slowed the show down too much. With a solid state drive and Jukebox the next song starts in 5 or 10 seconds so it keeps things moving. I am not much of a stage talker so I could in the time while the song loaded shout out something like "I have 3 Credence Clearwater Revival Songs for you today- here we go". Time to swig some water between other songs.

I have now figured out a screen arrangement that has the lyrics on the left and BB on the right and BB pulls up the lyrics.

At the same time I was revamping my sleepy show to being more energetic I got a referral from a friend for a paid Praise Band (as a duo and trio). I had to chart and perform 4 new songs a week. I mute the computer sound (it has a light on the key) and load the next song and generate and play it (muted) and then use the left arrow to go back a couple of measures and unmute. I have all the songs set for no count-in. When the minister says "The Song of Response is ______" I hit the spacebar and the backing tracks immediately start. I also have the global setting set to end each song instead of cycle back and restart at the top.

Band in a Box has been reliable with no issues in both live outdoor performances and with the Praise Band. I am thinking of doing a youtube video of screen setups and more nuances if people are interested.

I very much aggree with Dzjang.

I've always used BIAB to create backing tracks and then moved them over to RB for finalising. In the old days I used Powertracks but RB is just PT on steroids.

Playing live mp3s are more reliable than BIAB (IMHO) and because what i'm trying to achieve is the sound of the small band I used to play in - 2 guitars, bass, drums and sometimes keyboards - mp3s do the same job. after all do you want the bass player to play something different every time? the audience won't notice small changes and as for redoing BIAB on the fly i have enough trouble getting the guitar and vocal right without playing around with a laptop.

Laptop keyboards generally are unique to the laptop.

In this instance an easy workaround would be to connect a standard desktop usb keyboard.

Many laptops use a trackpad instead of a mouse. Since most mouses have a scroll wheel but trackpads do not you lose use of the scroll wheel too.

Here again the answer is a desktop usb mouse.

If you connect a wireless keyboard and mouse, they could be placed on a stand or table away from the laptop.

First of all: There is more than one right way to make music...

I gig for a living, and don't use BiaB live.

• Since I play commercial music, there are certain songs that need specific licks, they are as important as the melody. BiaB styles are generic (and should be) so I can export to a MIDI sequencer or DAW and add the song-specific parts.
• Sometimes BiaB is not the best choice for a particular song, so I do the songs from scratch, playing all the instruments myself into a MIDI sequencer or DAW. Other times I might use BiaB for some parts depending on the song and whether a BiaB style is appropriate or not
• Often I use BiaB for harmonization of parts I write like horn, synth, or other countermelody or background parts. I can play the notes I want and let BiaB take care of the other parts. BiaB does it just like I learned in music theory class, and that saves me a lot of time
• Intros and endings. That's a big one for me. BiaB doesn't really have intros, although I can always put a sequence of cords for an intro, and sometimes the endings are either inappropriate for the song or ragged. The beginning of the song creates expectations, and the ending leaves an impression. Both are as important and sometimes more important than what goes on in between them.
• Crescendos, diminuendos, dynamics, accelerandos, ritardandos, and other expressive elements are better done in a MIDI sequencer or DAW than the limited capabilities of BiaB

I work in a very competitive environment for duos, so I have to be better than my competition. If it takes me two days to make a backing track, and it's as good as I can possibly make it, so be it.

We have to be better at what we do than our competition. We have to sound better, make music choices better, sing better, play our lead instruments better, and generally give our audience a better experience than they get with our competition. All this to the best of our ability.

What we do must be working. We've gigged in our area for 37 years now, and until the COVID 'vacation', we have never been out of work. We even have to block out weeks for vacation, because if we don't, we end up gigging with no time for vacation. We also charge a bit more than our competition.

If the timing and audience is right, I tell our audience, the only band who have been together longer than us is The Rolling Stones. After a pause, I'll add "And we still have all the original members."

I don't mean to imply anything negative about BiaB. It's a wonderful tool, it saves me hours and hours of work. It even does things that I cannot do without BiaB. I consider it one of the 3 essential music tools that I have, the other being a MIDI sequencer/DAW, and a full-blown notation program.

Each tool has its job, and together they make the music better for me than any single tool.

There is nothing wrong gigging with BiaB. I can see that it gives you unlimited songs, you can change the tempo or style on the fly, you don't need to do so much prep work at home, and depending on your act, your audience, and most importantly, the type of music you play, BiaB life can be the right tool for you.

There is more than one right way to make music.

Insights and incites by Notes ♫