I’m thinking that in order to continue to progress in music I’ve got to add music theory and more specifically, the Circle of Fifths to my toolbox. My 3 goals are to 1) understand how music works, 2) to play better bass guitar and 3) to write better songs using BiaB.
What I think I know about this diagram is that if we move clockwise, one step on the outer yellow circle we find the “upward 5th” (of the C major scale?) of where we started. So G is the upward 5th of C and D is the upward 5th of G. When we get to Cb/B this is not a slash chord but indicating that Cb and B are equivalent. To find the upward 5th of a note on my bass, I move up 1 string and then up 2 frets. C-D-E-F-G or 1st-2nd-3rd-4th-5th (upward).
If we move counterclockwise we get the “downward 5th” of where we started. So F is the downward 5th of C and Bb is the downward 5th of F. On my bass I can get these downward 5ths by moving up 1 string and staying on the same fret or by moving down 1 string and then move down 2 frets. C-B-A-G-F or 1st-2nd-3rd-4th-5th (downward).
I know there is a ton of music theory material on the web but I find that much of it may start at a beginners level but then accelerates beyond my skill level making it difficult to see the “entire forest”. Also, I find these sites don’t align very well with my 3 goals above. So here are a few questions.
1. If this diagram is for the C major scale, are there different diagrams for all the other scales? 2. Do you find the Circle of Fifths useful for what you do musically? If so, how? 3. Can this tool be used in constructing chord progressions when writing songs? 4. Can you recommend a beginner’s music theory book that you actually have on your bookshelf or plan to buy? Being able to discuss something on a specific page would be useful. Who knows, this may grow into a “PG Music Retirement Center Book Club”. 5. Anybody else struggling with music theory?
Thanks for any insights.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
1. No. Just move your eyes around the circle. For example the majors for the Key of A is D and E. 2. Yes, it gives me a basis to start with. 3. Progressions are not my strong point. Someone else? 4. I took music lessons and it was explained to me. I have not read any books on the topic but probably should. 5. Yes, there are rules and rules can be broken.
1. It's the same for all scales ... it's about the relationship of notes/chords, not about the scales.
2. Yes, to the extent that I can draw it from memory and recite much of it from memory. It helps to analyse music. It shows the conventional progressions, the relative minor, the tritone, the key signature, right there of the chart. There are several mnemonics to aid memory ... find something that suits. I personally like "Fat Cats Go Down Alleys Eating Birds", but there are others.
3. Yes, definitely. It shows the conventional progressions, but also offers other paths. That 1-4-5 is always there root, step left, step right past root. The common jazz progression 2-5-1 is also there as the 2m is the relative minor of the 4, or the root just steps counter-clockwise. 3-6-2-5-1 is also there.
4. Someone recommended the Dummies Guide To Music Theory. It should be on my bookshelf somewhere, but I can't presently find it. The Beato Book may be worth a look, though it's just gone interactive on a website, which means it's no longer a paper copy. I have mixed feelings about that.
5. I suspect many, possibly most, of us struggle at least a bit. I certainly struggle with some. Don't get hung up about it; rules are made to be broken; if it sounds good to you it's fine; I've wrongly fingered a few chords and loved the resulting sound. One person's tension is another's "sparkle" and yet another's dissonance.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
1. No. Just move your eyes around the circle. For example the majors for the Key of A is D and E.
Thanks Deb, but I don't know what this means. "the majors for the Key of A is D and E"? D and E are majors?
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
1. No. Just move your eyes around the circle. For example the majors for the Key of A is D and E.
Thanks Deb, but I don't know what this means. "the majors for the Key of A is D and E"? D and E are majors?
Pre-empting Deb ... apologies if that's presumptuous.
In a major key/scale, the major chords are the root, the fourth and the fifth. If you look at the root chord on the circle, the 4th is one step counter-clockwise from the root and the 5th is one step clockwise from the root.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
4. Someone recommended the Dummies Guide To Music Theory. It should be on my bookshelf somewhere, but I can't presently find it. The Beato Book may be worth a look, though it's just gone interactive on a website, which means it's no longer a paper copy. I have mixed feelings about that.
5. I suspect many, possibly most, of us struggle at least a bit. I certainly struggle with some. Don't get hung up about it; rules are made to be broken; if it sounds good to you it's fine; I've wrongly fingered a few chords and loved the resulting sound. One person's tension is another's "sparkle" and yet another's dissonance.
Thanks Gordon, I've never been a fan of the Dummies series. I may be ignorant but I don't think a dummy. That said if the book is good, I could get past my reservations on the title. This one looks like it includes a CD at Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/Music-Theory-Dumm...66398&psc=1 Regarding Rick Beato, I've listened to an interview or 2 of his and 1 or 2 "why this song is so great" and I like the guy. He seems knowledgable.
The idea that rules can be broken and that it's about whether it sounds good or not is sound advice. And it's good to know that others struggle with music theory. Makes me feel that I'm not such a "dummy" after all. If I am a dummy I'm in good company
If nothing else, it sounds like diving into the Circle of 5ths is a worthwhile endeavor.
So there is no circle for other scales, just the one I posted above. Is this because each of the 12 notes ( A - G#) are shown on the circle?
Other than an aid to help find the 5th, does that outer ring tell me anything more?
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
In a major key/scale, the major chords are the root, the fourth and the fifth. If you look at the root chord on the circle, the 4th is one step counter-clockwise from the root and the 5th is one step clockwise from the root.
Ahhh, ok. That answers another question I had. 1 step CCW and 1 step CW from the root gives us the common 1-4-5 used in so many songs?
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
When you move around the circle, remember going up a fifth can also mean going down a fourth to the same pitch in a lower register.
I prefer my chart to show key signatures. I know them, but when you get to five or more accidentals and a certain age, a chart makes it easier.
When composing, the chart can be used for modulating from one key to another. For example, you are in A and you need to get to C. Just move counterclockwise from A to D to G to C. Some of those can be minor. It’s simply taking the ii V7 I progression a few more steps.
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I agree with you in that the dummy books should not be called that. Maybe change the name to Beginner's Guide to Music Theory would be much better. However regardless of the title those books are very good. I have been through a number of them.
Another way to look at the circle of fifths is to look at it as a way to get back to your tonic chord. For example lets say your first chord is C and the second is B, Using the circle of fifths going counter clockwise your chord progression would be C-B-E-A-D-G-C. Remember the chord progression can be of any version of a chord. For example C-Bm7-E9-A11-Dm7b5-G7-C. In other words they do not have to all be major triads, i.e. major chords. Note that any chord can come after the tonic. Also the above in not written in stone as you can use any chord progression that fits your song and sounds good.
I hope this helps.
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When you move around the circle, remember going up a fifth can also mean going down a fourth to the same pitch in a lower register.
I prefer my chart to show key signatures. I know them, but when you get to five or more accidentals and a certain age, a chart makes it easier.
When composing, the chart can be used for modulating from one key to another. For example, you are in A and you need to get to C. Just move counterclockwise from A to D to G to C. Some of those can be minor. It’s simply taking the ii V7 I progression a few more steps.
OK, I think you all are helping me connect some dots. But I have to have my fretboard diagram and the circle at the ready. Moving CW from C to G is moving up a fifth (up 1 string and up 2 frets) Moving CW from C to G is moving down a fourth (down 1 string and stay at the same fret) These 2 G's are 1 octave apart (2 strings up and 2 frets up)
How can I find the chart you're referring to showing the signatures?
And as you point out it looks like you can modulate (musically move?) from any note to any note simply by hopping around the circle CW 1 step at a time. That's useful.
So if I've written a verse that I like, and I want to create a chorus to follow it, one pleasing way to make this move is to specify the first chord of the chorus to be 1 CW jump on the circle (a fifth) from the last chord in the verse. This is cool. Then to musically get back to the verse from the chorus could do the same between the last chord of the chorus and the first chord of the verse?
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
I agree with you in that the dummy books should not be called that. Maybe change the name to Beginner's Guide to Music Theory would be much better. However regardless of the title those books are very good. I have been through a number of them.
Another way to look at the circle of fifths is to look at it as a way to get back to your tonic chord. For example lets say your first chord is C and the second is B, Using the circle of fifths going counter clockwise your chord progression would be C-B-E-A-D-G-C. Remember the chord progression can be of any version of a chord. For example C-Bm7-E9-A11-Dm7b5-G7-C. In other words they do not have to all be major triads, i.e. major chords. Note that any chord can come after the tonic. Also the above in not written in stone as you can use any chord progression that fits your song and sounds good.
I hope this helps.
Thanks Mario, you just answered another question before I even asked it. Not only is it musically pleasing to move CW (forward) on the circle, but moving CCW (backward) also works.
I guess one way to really see this in action is to create a BiaB learning tool that spins the wheel in both directions
This is getting better with every post, thanks guys.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
In my opinion these are really worth a look even if you think you really know the Circle of 5ths and scales inside out. If you are not across the Circle of 5ths they should almost be mandatory.
My opinions Tony
Last edited by Teunis; 07/28/2210:50 AM.
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I've never been a fan of the Dummies series. I may be ignorant but I don't think a dummy. That said if the book is good, I could get past my reservations on the title.
I often think their "hey this title would be fun" has probably cost them a lot of sales. Generally, the books are good. Lot's of people say "I'm not a dummy, I won't buy it". They're not for dummies. They're for people of all abilities.
Originally Posted By: Bass Thumper
Regarding Rick Beato, I've listened to an interview or 2 of his and 1 or 2 "why this song is so great" and I like the guy. He seems knowledgable.
He is. He can also be a bit opinionated and insufferable. But on balance I like what he does.
Originally Posted By: Bass Thumper
The idea that rules can be broken and that it's about whether it sounds good or not is sound advice. And it's good to know that others struggle with music theory. Makes me feel that I'm not such a "dummy" after all. If I am a dummy I'm in good company
If nothing else, it sounds like diving into the Circle of 5ths is a worthwhile endeavor.
So there is no circle for other scales, just the one I posted above. Is this because each of the 12 notes ( A - G#) are shown on the circle?
Other than an aid to help find the 5th, does that outer ring tell me anything more?
I'm someone who, when I don't understand something, is prepared to put a hand up and ask for an explanation. Nine times out of ten, people come to me afterwards and say "I'm glad you asked that, because I didn't understand either". In fairness, I'm pretty bright, so if I don't know, I reckon it's a pretty good guess that I'm not the only one. The 10nth times out of ten are the ones where I blush and say "Oh, of course, how silly of me". I don't mind. I'm usually still not alone.
Often the outer ring also includes the key signature, though as with the rest, once you have the FCGDAEB around the ring, each step right of C adds a sharp and each step left of C adds a flat. The ring inside the outer is the relative minor of the major, so also shares the same key signature. There's a surprising amount of information in that circle.
FWIW, Hal Leonard do a small book and extended version, called "The Chord Book" which add more detail about other chord relationships, but I'm still not sure whether it's helpful or just a complication.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
So if I've written a verse that I like, and I want to create a chorus to follow it, one pleasing way to make this move is to specify the first chord of the chorus to be 1 CW jump on the circle (a fifth) from the last chord in the verse. This is cool.
Sure, you can do that. Or you can modulate almost anywhere else to go into a perfectly effective chorus (bridge). Up a minor third is powerful. Up a major third is nice. My favorite is probably to go up a fourth. After all, that's just one step on the Circle but going counterclockwise. It's very popular.
There are hundreds of diagrams of the Circle of Fifths on the Internet. Here's just one, showing key signatures. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths#/media/File:Circle_of_fifths_deluxe_4.svg
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In my opinion these are really worth a look even if you think you really know the Circle of 5ths and scales inside out. If you are not across the Circle of 5ths they should almost be mandatory.
Thanks Tony, I watched all 3 videoes and she does a great job. I'll be watching them again to really try to cement this info. In one of them she was talking about how to transpose. I'm learning there is a ton of info packed into this tool.
Whoever invented this circle deserves kudos.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
Often the outer ring also includes the key signature, though as with the rest, once you have the FCGDAEB around the ring, each step right of C adds a sharp and each step left of C adds a flat. The ring inside the outer is the relative minor of the major, so also shares the same key signature. There's a surprising amount of information in that circle.
Thanks Gordon, I need to think about this as I'm sure it's important.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
Sure, you can do that. Or you can modulate almost anywhere else to go into a perfectly effective chorus (bridge). Up a minor third is powerful. Up a major third is nice. My favorite is probably to go up a fourth. After all, that's just one step on the Circle but going counterclockwise. It's very popular.
Another quote worth capturing. Thanks Matt.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
I tried to capture the essense of the first 2 videos that Tony provided. I think these videos are great. Any comments for improvement are welcome.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2025 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
The Music Theory for Dummies book mentioned above is a great starter book. +++ HERE +++ is a link to the book's webpage that has additional information of interest. The Amazon webpage has links to purchase both new and used copies of the book.
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