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This is a reason why I keep posting info and ideas:

I open a VSTi like Superior Drummer 3, EZDrummer 3 and it all works so smoothly with real time signatures and real tempo maps.
Biab has the most vast incredible content BUT you need to be able to access it like the Toontracks VSTi's INSTANTLY.
So I keep posting regardless if there is interest or not, it may just go over the top of those reading the posts, it may annoy some that don't like change.
I liken it to one who travels back in time and tells those there of the future and they think he is crazy.
I won't be here forever so while I'm here I post the ideas and suggestions I see. Who knows maybe way down the track they might get used when things evolve a bit more and understanding grows.
I'm not here to run PG into the ground but try to lift it up where it needs to be, as professional as it's professional content.
I don't get anything out of it, I don't do it for "ME".

I agree. If I am on a forum posting negatively about something, it's done in the hope of change.

My problem with change is it's so rarely done for the better. If we all moan about the GUI in BIAB that'll probably be "addressed" with a fashionable flat, dark, colourless, borderless and very limited customisable interface with no separation between elements, as is the current trend. In my opinion there is nothing good about this.

The argument is about eyestrain but nobody accepts the fact it causes mental strain and drives you crazy trying to separate things visually. I guess it depends on your workflow, but for me, when I'm using software I am generally very busy - switching between screens, changing settings and values etc etc. The colourless lack of separation makes this a nightmare.

For me, the one thing that would make BIAB a thousand times better is not to bring it into the future but simply bring it into the early nineties would be good enough for me. New usable features? Yes maybe, but not at the cost of usability. BIAB is already very versatile but it's such a total mess that using it just brings you down and makes you want to give up.

Example, I spent all day yesterday trying to do a very basic task - it ended in me playing around, reverse engineering and experimenting all day just trying to make some sense of what is going on, in the hope that it will educate better for the next time I want to do something similar. The end result is if you finally figure it out, you'll have no chance of ever remembering it again. There is no logic, no common sense, no consistency.

The look of the GUI, in my opinion is OK, looks dated but it works. Customisable menu bars and keyboard shortcuts alone would improve things massively. But above all, I just want it to make sense. I want to be able to figure out the signal flow. I want all pop ups and options to be correlated. It's like everything they do is the complete opposite of the norm and you are just left guessing. Everything is just too random and inconsistent. The options that are obvious take way too many unnecessary clicks. Something that should be a simple click away is nested in submenus that you always have to look for, they're so buried that you can't just memorise things easily.

Pop ups that should stay open, close with each click. Just silly things like this and the list is huge.
Organisation. The styles, realtracks and drums - just another mess. The filter doesn't filter, it sorts things into just a different kind of mess. Ez drummer for example as you mentioned. Organised into styles, fills, grooves etc. Easy to find what you are looking for and choose what you want. This isn't modern, it's been the norm for 20+ years in just about every software I've ever know, seen or used. Just common sense.

For me - necessary changes to the GUI is nothing to do with the Graphic elements, just the user interface - it's in the name! Make the interface usable. If we all moan about it then the response will probably be the usual flat, colourless ... etc. with no improvement to usability.

I know this is like a huge rant, and of course, it is - but like you I do so in hope of change. If we stay quiet then things won't happen. BIAB is incredible and I use it almost daily. If there was any alternative then I would be gone, would have happened long ago. But there isn't so the more chance there is that they improve the workflow the more chance I'll stay loyal. We aren't that far away from being able to do a lot of this stuff with simplicity using DAWs and VSTs. My guess is within the next five years I won't be needing to use BIAB as often as I do because I'll just opt for the quicker, easier and more editable version of doing everything in the DAW. They currently still have the time and opportunity to stay ahead of the game but their time is running out.

Again, just to clarify, this isn't a rant for rant's sake - it's just a desperate call for change - put the features on hold, don't change the interface to borderless and just make things easy to figure out, with consistency.

<< "Example, I spent all day yesterday trying to do a very basic task - it ended in me playing around, reverse engineering and experimenting all day just trying to make some sense of what is going on, in the hope that it will educate better for the next time I want to do something similar. The end result is if you finally figure it out, you'll have no chance of ever remembering it again. There is no logic, no common sense, no consistency." >>

Could you share your example of the basic task that took "all day"?

Yes and no. Now I've fixed it, the problems I had aren't so easy to remember and replicate, but I'll try to give the gist of things.

Simple task: Load a Hi-q patch on a utility track. In this instance it was Rock drum kit in sforzando. Create a beat in the piano roll (already a fiddly task) - decide I don't like the kit so changed it to playable realdrum "funklondon".

All good, happy with the sound. Close program, come back later, it's reverted to Rock kit. Weird, I'll change it again, maybe I didn't save? Nope, tried again - it won't save. Maybe this is normal behaviour for BIAB but it's certainly not "expected" behaviour from someone using software every day of their lives.

No problem, I'll see if I can figure out how to force the patch to save. Off to forum, quick look through the manual. No easy or obvious answer so I'm left experimenting and trying to figure things out.

Try again from the start. I'm now experimenting and testing in a temporary project. Create utility etc, select hi-q patch, choose funklondon ... up comes a pop up. "Aria session" or some such can't load, version is out of date.

Back to Google, back to the forum - what's Aria session loader? Turns out something to do with Plogue Art.

Me thinking "Surely it can't be out of date", I've only just updated to 2023, why would they show a playable realtrack that I can't use. Maybe I've done something wrong with the install? Back to the installer and reinstall BIAB update.

Nope, same problem. Sod it, I'll deal with that later and first see if I can find out how to make this patch stick.

More messing around, more experimenting, more forum searches. I end up in track settings (F7) trying to make some sense of how things work.

So far, all I can figure out is that only the first patch selected will get saved with the song. Now, this isn't actually true, it's just all I am able to determine at this point through experimentation, loading patches, saving, re-opening, etc.

At this point I'm clueless - it will let me load funklondon, let me play funklondon, it displays funklondon in the track mixer etc etc, it just won't save. Eventually I figure out that if it doesn't show in the top list of the track settings window then it won't save. Try the same in Cubase, load sforzando, choose instrument no problem, everything is saved as expected, nothing weird, all saves no problem.

In short, the only way to save a patch in BIAB is to load it from within BIAB itself. Completely unusual, not in the slightest expected behaviour and nothing to make this obvious.

All of these oddities wouldn't be so bad if we had some clue with what was going on and how BIAB does things. Nothing is intuitive. The little + sign in the track settings window in the midi patch section has little or nothing to do with midi patches as we'd normally expect so it takes a while to figure these things out. Nothing is consistent.

Ultimately, the session loader needed updating, it now works. No mention of this in the manual, very little on the forum and not updated with the program update.

It's just hard to get your head around things with such a convoluted piece of software where nothing works the same as pretty much all other software out there.

These kind of things happen often when I use BIAB. Maybe I just try to dig too deep into the details and understand how the thing works and what it's doing. After 25 odd years, I'm none the wiser.

I agree. I have been begging for real time signatures for a long time.

If you stay in the PGM world or you play your instrument/voice to PGM time signatures you are OK. BUT if you try to communicate outside of the PGM world you are DOA with anything other than 2/4, 3/4, or 4/4.

IMHO I think they are doing wonders with some very old coding however it is time for a complete rewrite.

YMMV

I agree, EZ Drummer 3 provides a beautiful example of a very well thought and executed GUI, which not only does not hinder the user's workflow, but also enhances the user's creativity.

Despite having thousands of grooves in its database, it is always very easy to find exactly the groove you are looking for, thanks to the great categorization of the content, very powerful and well-defined filters, the ability to easily combine parts from different grooves, and, last but not least, thaks to game-changing features, such as Tap2find, or the new "Band mate", a feature that listens to the music and comes up with a beat.

Very good ideas that could also work really, really well in BIAB.

I started with BIAB in 2012 and immediately recognized how behind the curve it was compared to other modern software. The changes since then have only been patchwork that in some ways make it even harder to use as new "features" (that sometimes are not finished) get bolted onto the program and in the way of workflow. I agree time is running out!


I agree 100%! It is amazing what I can get out of BIAB but it does need a complete rewrite. The two problems I see with that are 1) convincing PGM this is necessary and 2) I doubt they have a team that could do this.


Agreed! EZ Drummer 3 should be installed on every PGM programmer's computer and it should be studied as a great example of awesome software design!

I appreciate forum power-users who contribute their knowledge and share long-winded, convoluted work-arounds to the various warts we encounter with BIAB. I just wish they (and PGM) understood that these work-arounds should not be necessary in the first place! Using a piece of software in this manner sucks all of the fun and creativity out of the work.

I don't remember when I got started with BIAB, probably late 90s, maybe early 2000s. It was clunky even back then, but was quite versatile. There was another one out at the time called Jammer - far far easier to use and intuitive but just didn't have quite the versatility of BIAB, so I went with BIAB.

I've no regrets, I still love the software but if I want to do anything more than type in some chords and load a style, then I just end up frustrated, nearly every time. Things I expect it to do or want it to do are so clumsy or hard to figure out that I usually give up in boredom or frustration of getting nowhere. Then one day you read in the forum about something and think "ah, brilliant, you can do that like this". It shouldn't be this difficult to figure things out.

I agree a complete software re-write would be the way to go but in the meantime there is so much that can be done, probably quite easily, just to tidy things up and make life easier.

As an analogy, IMO, if BIAB was a car, the handbrake would be on the passenger side, the accelerator on the left, brakes on the right, the headlights could be switched on by going outside and pressing each light three times, and each door would have its own separate key ... etc etc. Yes, we could argue that the car is still usable but we just couldn't be bothered going out in the dark or carrying passengers. As for changing the oil? We'd probably never figure out how!

What makes you think that those experienced users here who do that are not working behind the scenes, as well as openly in the forums, to recommend changes to the program?

Believe me, we get frustrated too. And there is plenty of interaction with the developers, but improvements can only occur with their practical involvement and cooperation.

I am glad to hear experienced users are working on this. My frustration with this specific issue is when someone reports an obvious buggy weirdness or makes a reasonable wishlist request and someone responds as if it is not a problem at all if they will just learn the long-winded work-around they have created/discovered! And to be fair, I don't recall you ever doing that, Matt!

AudioTrack, your posts are always helpful! I was more referring to those who get defensive about perceived BIAB criticism.

JJJ, All good. I follow exactly what you mean

+1

In my view, all what is said in posts above is perfectly summarized in a single sentence by Lee:

"They currently still have the time and opportunity to stay ahead of the
game but their time is running out."

It would be very sad if they don't take advantage of this "opportunity".

I believe, Ergonomics/workflow + consistency (both functions and visual) should be priority #1 for the BIAB(software*) at
this point in time. Functions are there, just make them usable and user friendly. And of course fix known problems ASAP.


*Excluding RT/RD/MIDI and other creative content, which is great.

They are already way behind in the MIDI department. Companies like Toontrack have already passed them. Some of the MIDI piano, drums,etc loops are excellent. PGM is ahead in the RT and RD department because that is their main focus, and rightly so as it is their cash cow.

Mario,
I believe PGM has enough of MIDI content, just most of it is not very usable because of workflow limitation.
Specifically, I am talking about individual instrument parts of huge library of PG MIDI styles. These are nearly impossible to extract into individual instrument tracks that can be mixed and matched like RT, RD and Super Midi tracks.

On top of that, many 3rd party MIDI pattern / loop libraries cost close to nothing. It's BIAB workflow that has issues/limitations with properly integrating those into composition.

In theory, you should simply be able to audition midi pattern or midi loop in a picker, place it on a track of your choice and it should follow tempo and chord changes without doing crazy acrobatics. If we are on the same page, it is a workflow item.

Misha,

Yes, I agree that the workflow is a major part of the problem, thus my "PGM is ahead in the RT and RD department" statement. That was part of what I was talking about.

However there are third party MIDI loops/tracks that are far superior to many of PGM MIDI tracks.

Some of PGM MIDI tracks are fantastic and I think your selecting individual MIDI tracks greatly enhance BiaB.

Maybe it all will end up like a type Kodak Company situation. A market leading company and brand for decades where management failed to see or believe in the changes of the industry at that time even though a majority of the competition was.

A minor offshoot of this thread is about PG Music and MIDI. I just wanted to mention that I really enjoy the jazz piano MIDI Supertracks. I wish PG Music would release more of these. I know it didn't get widespread support when this was last discussed, but there are a few folks like Mario who use MIDI extensively and would really appreciate resuming making these.

Yep. I know this quite well as I worked at Kodak research for 39 years. I went digital early on with a 2.1 MP camera. Most employees thought digital was just a phase. Well it has been a long phase hasn't it.

What's possibly frustrating about this is that if pianos were recorded using, e.g., Yamaha or Kawai hybrids, or a grand fitted with PNOscan, they'd get both the acoustic and the MIDI SuperTrack performances for the much same investment.

Perhaps the issue is that the pianists want to use their own pianos.

Got that right Matt! Those non-quantized Super MIDI Tracks are the best thing to happen to BiaB MIDI.

"Maybe it all will end up like a type Kodak Company situation. A market leading company and brand for decades where management failed to see or believe in the changes of the industry at that time even though a majority of the competition was."

That would be a major bummer. I have a minor degree in photography, so watching Kodak melt away was very sad on a personal level.

It is a great mystery to me, why steps are not being taken to at least tune up things that are already in place, such as consolidating menus, make workflow and GUI more consistent, automate items that should be automated and fix about a dozen of outstanding bigger issues.

There were several good "pushes" in a few years I was using BIAB, such as making a 64bit version, adding extra tracks, partial regeneration, micro chords and several others. Workflow is equally or in some cases more important than some of the features, but it gets almost completely overlooked for some reason. What good are the features if no one will use them because they are not integrated well, deeply hidden or simply unintuitive?

I am religiously convinced that if a good dive is made to tune up / fix existing items, rather than add features, BIAB will become a much better place.

There were so many discussions about 64bit because so many users wanted it but it was always "It's not needed as there is JBridge" but apple force it to happen by banning 32bit apps.
RealBand was always crashing for me but when it went 64bit I rarely got a crash.
All the "adding extra tracks, partial regeneration, micro chords and several others" were from years n years n years of nagging.
It took 10 years of nagging to get VstTimeInfo to be sent to VST's like EZDrummer to sync to the host.
How long have I been nagging about the BBPlugin, I have showed it working with Sforzando now, will it be another 10 years ?

It seems they don't have any time to do things as directly the Biab Win is done it's onto Mac and that holds everything up because apple are always updating every five minutes and changing their OS so apps don't work anymore, then PG spend months on it. I can run Win95 apps on Win10 but apple ban that, compatibility is not allowed.
There always has to be NEW Selling features every year, so they are way behind the eight ball.
If I could code I would be in there doing it NOW rather than spending all my time working on solutions and posting things. I think I put in more than a 40 hour week

Yep, apple is evil in that sense and it is unfortunate that they make companies like PGMusic suffer. Even big boys like NI seem to have constant headache because of apple's "innovations".

Well, I consider myself lucky that major changes occured during few of my short years using BIAB

Musocity,
I believe you are heard... and it seems you understand that certain leaps are not happening because someone is deliberately sabotaging progress, but because certain things must happen (like mac release you mentioned above).

While some of your ideas, like direct play are great (I do support that btw), but try to take a more centered position. Consider that PG team is much smaller compared to Cakewalk, Studio One, Reaper and many others. Cakewalk for example still doesnt have a chord track, while people bragged for years. Cakewalk has 30,000,000+ users....


Several big items were implemented from constructive discussions in this forum section. Lets try keeping it in the same constructive key.

I would not be helping some big company out.
I don't think there is any sabotaging much anymore but because of it in the past it's behind and has a lot of catching up to do.
I welcome users with with new ideas like yourself, I don't try and block them from beta testing because they will change things. I suggested one way with track freezing sections then someone said about song section freezing so I made up some examples how that can work.
I try to express how situations come about because if you don't learn from them you will just be repeating the past.
The only thing I can do is work out ways to do things and post them, if I get frustrated and go off that's all part of it. If I didn't have sensitivity/intuition to work things out I would not get stressed with anything BUT then I would not post anything and then there would not be a whole lot of functions and features added in Biab now

It's like in the US where all the 3 letter places, social media, main street media conspired to get rid of a President that was too brash, outspoken and told the truth as we see now about everything, then deliberately sabotaged and orchestrated to replace him with a "nice" puppet, and now it's all going down the drain. So Amen to those that stand up and tell the truth in the face of adversity.

I pick all that up from heighten sensitivity from going through so much like this guy.
Biab will get there !! I have seen visions of it in the future, I'm just worn out these days to be nice all the time sorry.
Each and every one of you I would go out of my way to help.

Maybe leave the politics out of it? Folks who are not in that cult see it differently!

Politics is Politics, Spirituality is beyond Politics it sees through the veil and discerns good/evil, you can beat your life on it. Anyone that's spiritual sees the same thing. Once your consciousness has shifted and experienced a spiritual dimension through actually dying then being resuscitated, out of your body from sickness, trauma or suffering you can't possibly go back. You see death as life and life as death. Cults follow outside influences, spiritual follow from within themselves. This guy certainly didn't go looking for it ! but to get the knowledge a heavy price is usually paid, God I know that.
I say things now that may seem over the top to some but there will be a time when it will be all seen clearly in light and brought back to mind.

Musocity,

I'm glad you're an active participant in the forum and believe your presence greatly contributes to the forum. I appreciate all your efforts to help other forum members. I also appreciate your efforts to identify ways to make both Band-in-a-Box and RealBand better.

Many times though I have difficulty understanding your presentations. I am unable to distinguish if you are presenting an idea for change or improvement, a problem solution or general information.

I believe one reason is because sometimes you include multiple subjects in a post. I have a lot of trouble understanding multiple subjects in a post. I agree that is my deficiency but I offer it as a limitation you may want to consider as you compose your posts.

Thanks Jim I appreciate that.
I will try and explain with step by step guides.
I posted one here to try
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=748177
It is very simple just put the sfz into you RealTrack folder then drag the sfz into Sforzando but I haven't got any response. If users could it would help with the BBPlugin then benefit all users.
I try to get others involve to test and try things to make Biab better, if they would only try things or ask I will try and be helpful as possible to explain otherwise things will go nowhere if others don't get involved in the development of new ideas.
If users can learn Biab that it's self is a tremendous feat, they should be able to learn other things to help with the development rather than it be left all to me. Maybe if Mac was still here he would be into it.
It would be just good if users could try things and report back or ASK.
I have no problem going out of my way to help others, that doesn't come from Politics and being in it to make money, that comes from spirituality you loose all materialism with that. If someone goes into Politics and make millions then someone goes into Politics and looses millions who is doing the right thing ?

I have to say that I get overwhelmed by it sometimes. I guess in no small measure that's an effect of my depression ... I sometimes get distressed at the stupidest things. Sometimes I just have to walk away for a while. I was always the tough and resilient one who helped everyone else get through things. CoolLED deliberately broke me.

I'll try to explore this and also get back to trying to get the Track Injector work on Linux+Wine.

Sometimes it's just too hard :-(