I would greatly appreciate suggestions / advise regarding how to optimize this project.
The audio is a first cut in production. I am questioning the "arrangement" of the tracks. Does it need more/less to make it tell the story? I am also questioning the "originality" of the song. The chords are a generic minor progession, but does the melody sound too familar (do you recognize the inspiration)??
Good (free ) production direction at this stage in the project would be a great help to me. Thanks
Maybe I need to be more specific with a couple of production points to get the cretique going: 1) Does this song sound to much like its inspiration, then I need to go back to the drawing board? 2 The vocals are sparse - I left a lot of room for the instruments. But, does that work? Or do I need more to tell the story? 3) I have both violin and piano playing solo melody at the same time (panned L and R). Does that work or is it messy?
PM me if that works better for you... Tell me what you think. I have time to work more on this if needed.
FWIW, it is always downloaded to the users computer (often in a Temp folder) but DL'd nonetheless
My personal thoughts, and this just me, so not meant as any professional guidance (and hope it's OK I'll be direct, hopefully being helpful, again please take no offense it is just my thoughts)
For this type of song, the vocals need to be tuned closer The synth 'ooo' sound is too intrusive in some parts Yes, the piano and string solo fight with each other in my opinion, try changing or removing one (for this type song I'd leave the strings)
/haven't done this in a while & hopefully this sparks other opinions, because my above opinion is only what I hear in this particular environment ..
Last edited by rharv; 07/29/2404:31 PM. Reason: spelling/clarity .. as always
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
Google Drive has a file download option. I've highlighted it in red on a copy of your screen shot.
I've downloaded the demo. It's my first encounter with a FLAC audio file.
First impressions: 5:55 is a long time for a song.I would shoot for 3:00 maximum. The intro piano doesn't connect with the rest of the intro. You could drop it and listeners would never realize it is missing. Too much echo on your vocal. It gives me the feeling you don't like your voice. But I do, I think it has an honest quality to it sort of like John Prine. Maybe listen to a John Prine or Bob Dylan recording to get an idea how professional engineers and mixers treat their vocals in a mix. You normally want the vocal to be a clear as possible, especially on a song this emotional. The first verse is your pledge. I think you should try to be more forceful in your singing in the second part of the verse. Let the listener know you mean what you say. Although the words are a repeat of the first verse, the second round is saying goodbye. Now is the time to let the emotion into your vocal. Sing it soft, like a lullaby. The piano is too far left and the violin too far right. You want some bleed through to the opposite channel. Look at how BiaB styles space two rhythm tracks (like guitars) mid left and mid right. Make the instrumental fade-out faster.
From an emotional standpoint, that's got to be a tough song to work on. I admire the song and your desire to get it right.
I have no objection to anyone downloading it. I have no interest in copywritting anything I compose. If fact, in the case of this song, my first concern was that it sounds too much like a very popular copywritted tune (which was the inspiration). But as I read up on copywrite law, my AI lawyer has told me there is no problem here.
I like the intro - it hints at a jazzy song. But it ends up not going there, so it seems out of place
There is too much slapback on the vocal.
The "oohs" fight against the vocals, but sounds fine when there's no vocal.
When the violin comes in, it starts feeling awfully close to another song. At 1:59, things click for me, and... yes, it sounds too close to the inspiration
The piano parts feel disconnected from the feel of song.
I don't think it's copyright infringing, but I find it distracting whenever I'm listening to a song and it reminds me of another song. On that basis, I'd try to remove the similarity.
I like the intro - it hints at a jazzy song. But it ends up not going there, so it seems out of place
Ya, I like the jazzy intro also. And I agree with you but...This brings in my specific taste so I do want to keep it.
Originally Posted by dcuny
[*]There is too much slapback on the vocal.
Vocal processing is a work in process and is tuning mentioned by rharv. I will fix this.
Originally Posted by dcuny
The "oohs" fight against the vocals, but sounds fine when there's no vocal.
I agree I will bring this in and out.
Originally Posted by dcuny
When the violin comes in, it starts feeling awfully close to another song. At 1:59, things click for me, and... yes, it sounds too close to the inspiration
So my vocal brings out the original melody? One reason I have kept the vocals sparse. I can tell you the violin is playing the "original inspiration" midi. While the piano is me noddling on the keys. I will start by eliminating the violin midi and see where that takes me.
Originally Posted by dcuny
[*]The piano parts feel disconnected from the feel of song.
In fact first piano is the left hand only of the original inspiration. So it covers all the chords rhythm nicely and holds down the bass but does not expose the melody. Then there in also my piano playing what I am trying to play to redirect the melody. I will work more on this.
Originally Posted by dcuny
I don't think it's copyright infringing, but I find it distracting whenever I'm listening to a song and it reminds me of another song. On that basis, I'd try to remove the similarity.
Removing the Violin part will help with this.
Thank you so much. This input early in the process is extremely helpful. Dan
I also felt there was a disconnect at the end of the piano intro and the start of the song proper, but I too love the piano intro.
If it were me, I'd probably keep the piano going after the intro, perhaps quietly playing only chords, and bring in the guitar over the last few intro notes. Personally(YMMV) I'm not keen on the "oohs". Would a cello or viola work? If it would, a long bowed low note under that final piano could be nice. The sound cuts off too sharply at present, of course.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
I also felt there was a disconnect at the end of the piano intro and the start of the song proper, but I too love the piano intro. If it were me, I'd probably keep the piano going after the intro, perhaps quietly playing only chords, and bring in the guitar over the last few intro notes.
I do kinda like the abrupt brake, but I also like your suggestion and will give it a try.
Originally Posted by Gordon Scott
Personally(YMMV) I'm not keen on the "oohs".
I agree, fact is I started with the BIAB track, liked it at first and then just forgot about it.
Originally Posted by Gordon Scott
Would a cello or viola work? If it would, a long bowed low note under that final piano could be nice.
I like that idea, I did try Tina Guo Cello - I will revist this.
thanks much - kinda fun being a producer isn't it? And certainly nice to have a producer's input.
Opps – sorry, I missed Jim's input for some reason.
Originally Posted by Jim Fogle
First impressions: 5:55 is a long time for a song.I would shoot for 3:00 maximum.
This version is 5:15 (which I agree is still long). However, the song when render extended 40 secs of silence at the end. That will be fixed and I will look to reduce the instrumental part to further shorten.
Originally Posted by Jim Fogle
The intro piano doesn't connect with the rest of the intro. You could drop it and listeners would never realize it is missing.
I kind of like that style of song writing. A short jazz flourish followed by stop time for the song pickup. I do this a lot. But I am not married to it so it may go.
Originally Posted by Jim Fogle
Too much echo on your vocal. It gives me the feeling you don't like your voice. But I do, I think it has an honest quality to it sort of like John Prine. Maybe listen to a John Prine or Bob Dylan recording to get an idea how professional engineers and mixers treat their vocals in a mix. You normally want the vocal to be a clear as possible, especially on a song this emotional. The first verse is your pledge. I think you should try to be more forceful in your singing in the second part of the verse. Let the listener know you mean what you say. Although the words are a repeat of the first verse, the second round is saying goodbye. Now is the time to let the emotion into your vocal. Sing it soft, like a lullaby.
Here is the good news. These vocals were a “quick and dirty take” sitting at my desktop with a Shure SM57. At which time I actually did like the sound of my voice. But instead of moving to the vocal booth for the Rode condenser mic, in the interest of time I just slapped on a preset from Isotope Nectar. The preset was literally “everything but the kitchen sink”. So yes I will fix the echo and effects and consider all your wonderful guidance when I sing the next version
Originally Posted by Jim Fogle
The piano is too far left and the violin too far right. You want some bleed through to the opposite channel. Look at how BiaB styles space two rhythm tracks (like guitars) mid left and mid right. Make the instrumental fade-out faster. .
Will do!
Originally Posted by Jim Fogle
From an emotional standpoint, that's got to be a tough song to work on. I admire the song and your desire to get it right.
I am sure you are aware my wife is dying in my home as I write and perform this song. So I truly appreciate the producer help with this project. . I am so glad I brought this to you folks early as I still have time and energy for this song. Dan
thanks much - kinda fun being a producer isn't it? And certainly nice to have a producer's input.
I'm no producer. Just a fresh pair of ears.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
thanks much - kinda fun being a producer isn't it? And certainly nice to have a producer's input.
I'm no producer. Just a fresh pair of ears.
Quote
...keep the piano going after the intro, perhaps quietly playing only chords, and bring in the guitar over the last few intro notes. ... I'm not keen on the "oohs". Would a cello or viola work? ... a long bowed low note under that final piano could be nice. The sound cuts off too sharply at present,...
Don't fool yourself, this is producer input and you handled it well. Much appreciated. As long as you don't ask for more cowbell!
Dan, there's lots to like about this production. There has been much constructive feedback, but the one that I agree with mostly is the song length. A time of somewhere around 3:30 would be an improvement in my view.
BIAB & RB2025 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
At end of today I have taken it down from 5:15 to 4:47 (which still includes the Jazz Chord Intro). I am working on it.... now down to 4:37, I think that will be it!
I fully agreed it was too long. But I am not against a long song, if it keeps the interest. I hope this next version does that. You may be glad to hear a lot less piano and now more violin and Cello - both played by me for the most part. Time to tackle the vocals again.:D
I'm much more likely to ask for a Kora, which I absolutely love. Sona Jobarteh & Band
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
I would agree with Jim and David's critique. Thanks for sharing, Dan
Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).
I do not have a thorough itemization of the production changes, but be assured I considered all the prior comments and suggestions. Here is a high-level summary of changes:
Key points • The song is 4 mins and 37 secs. Down from the original 5 mins and 15 secs. I could cut more space – but I felt some sections needed to breath for that extra bar or two. • I left in the Jazz Intro … it is my signature • Removed the BIAB synth ooo’s • Removed (dualing) piano and guitar backing. Replaced with Session Guitars Strummed acoustic – two different patterns panned L and R as the primary backing through the whole song. • Brought in and out soloists for: Piano, Violin and Cello at different times to add interest. • Re-sung the vocals. In fact, over and over. Tuned with Melodyn and added only light reverb as an effect. I hope to work more on these because I think I can do a bit better.
Version 2 is a dramatic leap forward. Your vocal stands out. I like the way you bring the various instruments in and out throughout the song. The two guitars works but can be better. I have one suggestion.
Use delay or reverb to mirror each guitar track to the opposite channel. Set the volume of each mirror low enough that it can barely be heard in the mix.
Final version of No Tears to Cry has gone to publishing. Thanks to all who helped me workout the production process. Your input was very helpful. Sorry the tune remained so long, but there was a lot I wanted to do and say. In the end I am happy with the results. I think the vocal lays well in the mix. In addition, the piano and violin interludes were entirely played by me. That is rare, but I hope to do it a lot more in the future.
In just a few weeks I will reach the one year anniversary of my wife's hospitalization when my role as her full time caregiver began. Never thought we would go through this together but I guess no one ever does. Hold on to your loved ones. Nothing is for ever.
Sorry the tune remained so long, but there was a lot I wanted to do and say.
How long one makes a song depends an awful lot of whether one is being popular/commercial or whether one has something to say ... musically, socially, whatever.
I can confidently say that most of my musical favourites are over 5 minutes long! And I also like this song a lot.
I imagine that the song relates to the couple of sentences on that page. You have my thoughts and my sympathy.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
It is a lovely song Dan. Touching and sad but also so powerful with your expression of dedication and love! Beautiful song! Well written, nicely performed and some mighty fine production.
I'm so sorry for the pain and suffering you and your wife are experiencing. And so impressed by your dedication to her and love for her.
Sounding nice on SoundCloud. Excellent production Dan.
I couldn't agree more with you Jim! This one actually sounds GOOD to my ears.
Originally Posted by JohnJohnJohn
It is a lovely song Dan. Touching and sad but also so powerful with your expression of dedication and love! Beautiful song! Well written, nicely performed and some mighty fine production.
thanks JJJ. this one came together nicely.
Originally Posted by Gordon Scott
You have my thoughts and my sympathy.
Very kind of you Gordon. Thanks for your input and the input of others. I am adding all of you to the offical song credits as "Co Producers". For what ever that is worth.
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) production direction at this stage in the project would be a great help to me. ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=28438&filename=No Tears to Cry.png)
![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=28460&filename=No Tears to Cry 080424.png)
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