PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production Recording and mixing vocals - your help is appreciated

Hi there! I've been using a DAW for about 2 years now and learning as I go. I can hear that some of my recent recordings and mixing is better than my early stuff. But I want to get better especially with vocals. Can you read what I have written below as my current practice and offer suggestions to improve?

For background, I use Cakewalk or Reaper, depending on the project - mainly, if I need to do a bit of pitch correction, I'll use Reaper because it has ReaTune plugin/FX.

Recording vocals
1) For my main vocal, I have been recording the main vocal on three tracks (3 separate records) and I try and get the phrasing and pitch across all three as consistent as possible.
2) Clipping - I normally do a test run of a song section and keep an eye on the mic preamp (I'm using a Focusrite Scarlett 18i8 2nd gen and the preamp will flicker red if clipping).
3) Plosives - I try and deal with this at recording by using a pop filter and mic angle placement. If I did encounter plosives, I would either punch in record a replacement section or use EQ or track volume automation to reduce it.
4) I then choose one of these three tracks to be the main (or comped into a main), with the other two tracks panned left 9 o'clock and right 3 o'clock, with both volume down around -15db while main is at 0db so these are sitting behind and supporting - incognito-like. This is because I try to thicken up my vocal as my voice can be dry and 'thin' while trying to keep the main vocal centred and as the main focus. Any suggestions on other ways to achieve this? I have tried an ADT plug-in and also thickener/fattener plug-ins but not as good in my ears as the technique I have described.

Mixing vocals
Next question is treatment and the order in which they're applied. I'd be happy to hear your thoughts about what I apply and what you do. Also, if you do the chain order differently, could you share with rationale?
5) De-esser - I haven't tended to use one, but would probably put it in before the EQ. My logic would be that I am then EQ-ing a de-essed track.
6) EQ - I normally just use a low floor to take out anything below 80-100khz, but usually don't apply any other scoops or increases.
7) Compressor - because my vocals can have uneven dynamics, I use a compressor with a ratio 5:1 and threshold in the -12 to -18db range. I've been applying this to the left and right triple vocal so that they don't 'pop' out of the sidelines.
8) Reverb and delay - I mainly use a reverb that gives me some but not too much. I have to admit that I am a little lost about how to best apply these and when not to apply at all. I'm thinking a really close intimate vocal would not use any, but other styles - use a 'smidge'
9) If I've recorded harmony or ooos/ahhs, I'll use the techniques for these tracks using the above, then I put all vocal tracks into a VOX bus/group and get the balance right for all vocals.
10) Recently, I've begun listening to the full mix of everything by turning my master down to say -20db, then adjusting my vox bus/group until I can understand the lyrics. Then I bring the master back up again. My logic here (I saw a video with this suggestion) is that if I can get the vox levels right at low master levels, it should also be good and my normal master level.

I would really love any tips or advice you can give, or if what I am doing looks weird. If you have any good youtube videos you've seen that explains it, that would be helpful. I've watched so many 'Do this one thing and all your problems will be solved' videos I am now a little confused.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Andrew D

Andrew, I have challenging vocals to record, so can relate. I admire vocalists who can record in a single take. That ain't me though.

Don't see anything you're doing WRONG, but whether what you're doing what you describe RIGHT depends on context and what you hear, or want to hear. So like everything else...it depends!

Yes, definitely re-record vocals that don't meet your goals. Practice using voice control to level your vocal levels and minimize plosives, clicks and other non-musical sounds. This works better than processing!

Compression is good in moderation, but I use gain staging (adjusting the volume) just as much when I want to balance the levels in a particular passage. I do find a gentle compression peaking at 3 dB of Gain Reduction can be helpful and (usually) transparent. All compressors aren't equal though, so find one that pleases your ears.

Adding EQ "presence" at around 3k can make your vocals cut through the mix. I like the concept of triple tracking, but rarely use it. The Beatles did pretty good with double tracking, right? The main problem with double or triple tracking is it doesn't suit all music styles. Great for rock, not so great for jazz.

My main vocal FX for rock/pop are tape delay with a smidge of plate reverb. The delay and/or reverb can be panned if you like. I'll sometimes combine this with a doubled vocal panned opposite the delay. It's then SORT of triple tracking though, isn't it? Still a better rock sound than jazz. For jazz and standards I'll skip the delay and double tracking.

Don't have any YouTube videos to recommend, though I've watched hundreds by now. I'd just recommend that you (1) work on vocal technique, (2) listen critically to what you hear, (3) keep the ideas that work for your taste, (4) discard the rest of the ideas (even mine!). My experience is that your results WILL improve with practice. I've recorded 1000+ song vocals, so if practice made perfect, I would be...but I'm definitely NOT!

Happy singing!!

I do similar. Several vocals and maybe a pair of harmony tracks.... I've been trying to simplify the process as much as possible. Doing more with less, so to speak.

Recently, I have been using TRIVOX which can do harmony and thickening on the fly in real time. It saves the time to record 4 or 5 more tracks and make sure everything is lined up with the "I's" dotted and the "T's" crossed. I just drop it in the lead vox track, set the parameters and let it do it's thing. Set the return low so it only adds a bit of ambiance to the overall vocal. You can hear it in several of my most recent offerings in the showcase.

As far as FX.... I drop in the waves Vocal rider and the CLA vocals plug. That's about all I have been using recently. I don't have the time to drop multiple plugs that do different things when the Waves CLA does the job.

Regarding using the two DAWs..... I use Cakewalk and I happen to have Melodyne for pitch and other things. Just export the vocal as needed to a wave and use the other DAW to fix the vocal then send it back to Cake. BTW... I think WAVES is now making a pitch correction plug that is much more affordable than Melodyne. Technology is causing all sorts of interesting things to happen.

In Cake I have also been using busses. One of my "givens" is a vocal buss. However, a year or so back, maybe longer, I got the idea to set up a "band" buss. SO everything musical goes there. This allows me to drop the level of the band rather than trying to bump the vocals higher with volume or compression. The cool thing is I can drop the band level without messing with any of my existing volume automation. It's just so much easier to put the vocals at the right level using this method. I happened upon this when I was struggling to get the vocals up above the music with a lot of tracks and every one of them having volume automation.... what a dreadful job to try to rework a bunch of envelopes.... then it hit me. If I can't get the volume up, why not just turn the band down and use a buss to do it? Waa Laa....eurika!!!!

The best tool I know to deal with 'plosives while recording is a 7/8" aquarium poly bio filter. You can buy pieces and affix to your microphone with rubber bands or jam into your shock mount. These will stop nearly anything short of a bomb blast without affecting the top end like thick foam rubber. Changed my life when I discovered these.




There's a $110 version on a gooseneck but here's the same $20 bio filter on a gooseneck. while this one has become a favorite Poly filter with clamp for side-address mics for $14.50



The best tool I know for cleaning up 'plosives is the De-plosive tool in iZotope RX. It used to be in the Advanced version but now it's part of Standard. Unfortunately, it's not part of Elements. iZotope RX Feature comparison

A great plug-in for learning how to place vocals is Nectar Elements, on sale for $24.50. It no longer contains Melodyne but, if you don't need pitch correction, that's ok. There are great tutorials.

Thank you Ron, Herb and Mike! There’s some useful ideas for me to explore there, and some plugins I didn’t know were such a thing! The gist seems to be to keep listening, tweaking and experimenting. Thanks for the encouragement!
Andrew D

If I'm going to work on the vocals, I'll micro edit everything.

That means going through the entire vocal, slicing the vocal, and adjusting the balance of everything. My DAW (Reaper) creates crossfades at split points, so they splits are (mostly) seamless. As long as the split isn't in the middle of a sustained vowel, it's not going to be heard.

By doing this, I can do several things at the same time:

• Balance the vocals so everything is at a constant volume. No compressor needed.
• Adjust consonants. No de-esser needed.
• Fix timing issues (notes too long/to short/not on beat)

It's a bit tedious, but once I'm in the groove, it goes quickly. Plus, I get to closely review the vocal, which is the most important part of the track.

AI voices require a bit less attention, but I try to make at least one pass through to make sure the consonants are clear. A big part of clear vocals comes from being able to hear the consonants.

Plus, it's easy to have a typo to a synth vocal and not catch it in the mix.

Thanks David! I think I'll have a closer look at my vocal track(s) and check for precision edit opportunities.
Andrew

Apologies in advance as I realize the following doesn’t address the OP’s question - it just started some musing. I’m a lucky guy when it comes to engineering vocals. Janice never says let’s record until she’s happy with what she’s been hearing in her head. All her lead & BGVs are one take all the way through after recording one scratch vocal to listen to on the monitors. We never cut and paste and I don’t volume shape them. And we have never done any pitch editing. We have a quilted table runner hanging down the front of a file cabinet. She faces that and sings through an old pop filter and a Rodes mic we’ve used for 10 years. I add slight EQ, very light old school compression, a tad of tape sat and a touch of EMT 140 Plate reverb via a sim. The room is our office and recoding area. Carpeted, four windows with soothing views of our forest. So, vocal engineering is a small percentage of our mix time. As mentioned l’m lucky and in many, many more ways with Janice. Oh, I started recording garage bands in the 60’s in a real studio. Now that was tedious.

Bud

I took some of this advice in a different direction so as not to steal this tread-
https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=856204#Post856204

Both Cakewalk by Bandlab and it's upcoming free replacement, Sonar, have a Prochannel channel strip insert available on each track.

Investigate the Prochannel vocal presets. They are good starting points to quickly get a good idea of the different sounds that you can achieve from your vocal. You may find a preset that sounds almost perfect for your vocal.

I use Reaper. I have a bad voice so my own vocals are over processed but with other folk's voices it's usually an easier time.
Comping from three takes is good. V7 of Reaper has some excellent comping tweaks.
Running three takes does, in the head, even out some pitch issues but also adds a chorus effect.
Doubles are less chorusy but require impeccable timing. There're a few ADT plugins available that can do it for you and the Reaper Delay's Vocal thickener preset does a good job of adding girth.
Using a de-esser is often pretty bad as there're likely a couple of freqs that need addressing - plosives are in the same boat. This means setting up multiple de-essers to address your needs and deadens the track.
REAPER MANIA on Youtube is a great place for a manual de-essing tutorial. The Manual process from there that I apply uses the preFX volume automation line, the Razor Edit function and the Spectral image as well. Essing, plosives and mouth noises can all be addressed in a process that won't affect the overall sound.It's time consuming but, once I learnt to listen and not cut off every ess it became just a routine to run through.
Compression is cool and I use it for the "sound" , (Distressor type like Modern's Deathcore suits my reedy voice), but I use automation or item levels for evenness - sometimes on a very rough take VOLA2 can be handy. Light compression can, when lucky, add to the track.Compression o the way in cut damage your attack unless things are set up JUST RIGHT the same can happen in the box PLUS the auto "make up" gain can wreak havoc.
Personally I try to not sing INTO the mic. I use a pop screen & a pop filter AS WELL AS the pencil and rubber band method. They all work to some degree but nothing but well practiced technique will really prevent unwanted bits n pieces. I can't sing well enough or often enough to bother learning mic technique - that'd be like teaching a frog to drive.
With all that said looking at the representation of your voice in a EQ display like ReaEQ will show you where problems may be that boosting & cutting gently may help...trying to gently even things out give a good basis for other FX. Remembering to put any EQ AFTER the compressor as comp can/may/will bring back some of the things you cut/boosted.
Care with a high pass is also required as voices sound thing of too much of the bottom end or fundamental is cut.
FINALLY, using the old Motown Exciter process is great for lifting a vocal < (it's a duplicate of the vocal SQUASHED with compression, bottom end rolled off and high end exaggerated..then blended with the original just a little until you can hear it...works a treat on every voice but mine as all my probables are in the high end.
Here's a dangerous one. AirWindows' IRON OXIDE classic dropped on a vocal track will help the voice cut through the mix. I don't change the settings as the way it comes works a treat, (for bass too).
I spent an hour working on a friend's vocal today. He has a nice voice but at his & my age things get essy, whistly etc so I used tyhe Pre FX Razor edit process and he sounds great as well as younger.
OHHH, reverb...whatever reverb you send your vocals through try to put that on a separate track -send the signal to it so it's parallel with the actual vocal so you can EQ the problem address areas that the reverb accentuates - as well as the bottom end which can boom in reverb land - before it meets the vocal again in your vocal bus or where ever you combine things.
Theeeeeeeeere's also the rather fabulous Frequency Matcher to be found on the Cockos site. It'll read a vocal and create a preset of it then apply that reading to another vocal to make it sound similar. It takes more effort than that BUT is pretty cool and has made my last couple of self sung pieces a little easier to listen to.

As a vocalist ( if I dare call myself that) for me the most important tool in my arsenal is Melodyne 5! Or actually both Melodyne and Nectar 4. I could not in all honesty release my vocal performance on the public without these two aids. Just sayin...

BTW, Nectar 4 Advanced is currentlyl on sale for 75 USD
And in the case of Melodyne $$ - well that is a bit more.

Thanks Jim - I will! I must admit I've been spooked off Cakewalk BB in recent months in the thought that it might disappear and realising that Reaper has some native FX for me to try that Cakewalk doesn't. However, now the clarity re Sonar is out there, I am going to check out that version.

My wife sometimes asks me "What are you doing in there that keeps you so busy?" Well ...
Andrew D

Thank you Ray - your detailed suggestions (not repeated here for brevity) are much appreciated and a few things to explore - really appreciate standing on the shoulders of your own experience. I only recently found out about putting FX to a separate channel and getting the balance between original and FX track. Clearly, others have gone before me with the same problems as me and found or developed a solution.
Andrew D

I'm with you there, Dr Dan! My pocket money doesn't stretch too far for FX and plugins, so I've started dabbling with manual pitch correction using ReaTune in Reaper to correct long-hold notes which is where I can go a bit off-pitch. I don't go overboard because I like to think that my listeners will say 'That sounds like Andrew', and if ever I play live for fam and friends, that expectations won't be unnecessarily increased too high! LOL.
Andrew D

ReaTune is pretty cool. I've found that it I do a gentle adjustment then copy and past that same adjusted plugin a couple or three times under itself you'll get a gentle stage by stage adjustment.
I don't have a VST/Plugin budget so I use Reaper native & freebies. I've managed to reduce my total number of plugins to a group I use frequently & a group I use occasionally. There're about six non Reaper ones in that bundle and all gratis.

Let's start at the beginning .. just my humble thoughts ..

"1) For my main vocal, I have been recording the main vocal on three tracks (3 separate records) and I try and get the phrasing and pitch across all three as consistent as possible"

Don't do that <grin>
Sing it once, mute that, then sing it again, intentionally not trying to duplicate what you just did.
Repeat.

Now sit down and listen to each one separately, noting sections of each that you like.
Then cut/paste a comp'd track of the best parts of each.

Trying to sing something exactly the same over and over will likely lead to less creativeness in how you approach the task.
This approach also allows you to learn how to 'work the mic' by not focusing on doing the same thing exactly the same over & over.
Expect a different result each time. That's the goal, so you have something to pick and choose from.

to the op.

gee whizz there is so much that could be said by so many people on this topic.
so i'll just suggest a couple of ideas.
(above all have FUN per Dr PG. i would add self doubt is your enemy.)

1..experiment with different vocal styles depending on what the song genre calls for.
for example the songs in my sig...some are british east london my birthplace, others are country, others are rock, others ballad etc etc....as a result of working in lots of different countries.
my whole objective is to have lots of fun with different vocal genres.
so also experiment outside your comfort zone.
2..doubling is your friend. i use it a lot as do many people..
(see songs in my sig).
3..dont be afraid to fail and also realise as we age your going to
probably lose your upper vocal register.
thus compensate as best you can.
4..try vocal comping...ie as rharv said record a few voc tracks..
choose the best bits and create a final voc track.
repeat process for doubling.
note...sometimes little imperfections in the vocs actually work.

(ps i personally dont use autotune. dont believe in it.
i far prefer to work till i get the vocs how i want.)

and thats it from me. just some ideas...hth//ymmv etc etc.

lots of further info on the net.

wish you every success.
ADDENDUM.
forgot...before going crazy on free and paid plugins imho pg's own dx plugins should be tested. most all the songs in my sig used them only.
there also a bunch of free plugins ive mentioned in the pg tips forum which i like
because they dont consume lots of pc resources just like the pg plugins. note in particular the free airwindows plugins. links provided.


om

Thanks rayc, rharv and om!
Lots of encouragement and advice there which I’ll put into the melting pot.
Andrew D