PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Your Most Useful Music Making Tools

The responses to the original "Your Most Useful Music Making Tools" question represented perhaps four groups of people.

1. People at all skill levels who are involved in generating music by electronic means.
2. Professional musicians who are currently playing paying gigs are they have done so in the past.
3. University graduates with a degree in music or self-educated people with the same
level of understanding.
4. People who are in the beginning processes of trying to figure out if they want to put in the hours
of hard work necessary to become proficient in the skills needed to do any of the above well.

The survey reflected that this site's first group is the most prevalent.

For me personally, I have been studying music theory from day one. The piano was instrumental in understanding chord formation, interval training, and many other theoretical things.

All those so-called tools were only marginally helpful in learning to make music.

I learned to play and make music on stage live with several highly qualified professionals who showed me what to do.

The software is a two-bladed sword. Every hour you spend messing around with software is an hour you do not have a musical instrument in your hand to learn to play better.

What you need to do and the level of skill required as a musician is a function of where and what you will be required to perform to.

You can not play for the Boston Pops if you can not read and are not an educated musician. You can play in a bar with very little skill and knowledge.

How people think about all this is frequently related to age and when they first started to learn to play. It may seem like the Internet has been around forever if you are young.

One of the disturbing facts of life is that it takes about 7000 hours of dedicated study to become truly proficient at playing a musical instrument, flying an airplane, and almost anything challenging.

There are presently two ways to make music. One through software and the other by playing a musical instrument. Neither one is at all easy to master.

Billy

And you would win that bet.


Interesting results.

Good question.
My first goal is to replace Sting as the bassist on his next 2 albums, then to create a 5 piece band that will dwarf the Beatles in worldwide popularity

. . . now that my dry humor is done let me try to really answer this.

I started music late in life, picked up the bass 7 years ago. I'm an amateur in music and always will be. This is a part-time, past-time and hobby but one I find intellectually stimulating, challenging, fun and hopefully an alzheimer-buster. The reason I posed the question regarding useful tools is two-fold. First I'm simply curious as to what others are doing/using so I can then think about how to chart my music journey over the next months and years for the purpose of upping my "musical game". Second, I thought that this info might be of some use to others with similar goals and questions.

Regarding the first reason, here is a song that I recently composed and shared on the forum.

https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=768050&page=1

My goal is to learn how to improve upon this and write/perform better compositions in the future. It's been pointed out that the lead guitar needs more volume and I agree.

I struggle with melody. What tool/resource can help with creating better melodies? I've tried using the Melody Maker last year in BiaB ver 2022 without much result.

How might I improve this bass line?

What tools out there could help me design a bridge for this song?

How can I improve the various keyboard voices I used?

In short, my goal is to up my game.

As an example of a possible tool to acquire, a few mentioned reading sheet music. I don't doubt that reading is a valuable skill to have and maybe one day I'll acquire it. But how could reading music help improve the above song when there was no music to read? All there is is a chord sheet, that I produced.

As I map my future path, I'm thinking bass lessons would be a good start. In other words, find an instructor that will dribble-in music theory, tab and/or sheet music and several of the other tools shown in the bar chart. And to dribble these in as required to support the larger goal of composing and playing better. Put another way, navigating this by myself will take me only so far.

Another point to make is that some in this forum may be at the end of their music journey and can't compose or play any more. Others may be on a slow decline. And still others may have reached their plateau. Still others may be on their journey upward. Thankfully, (and for the time being) I'm in this later group.

I don't expect whizz-bang answers to any of this, just ideas and perspectives.

PS> Regarding Scaler, I did a little research on it and have concluded it's a tool too advanced for my current skill level.

Thanks for the answer. Makes sense.

What I'm reading that you want to do are (at least in part)
1. improved keyboard voices
2. improved bass line
3. better compositions and better melody

Some pointers...

1. I'm not a keyboard person, so can't help there.

2. As for bass, about all I can say is that bass is a base. Like drums, it provides rhythmic propulsion... it moves things forward and provides a base to build on. Sometimes its kind of melodic, sometimes not... depends on the song or player. Best tool here is ears. Listen to the music but concentrate on the bass and visualize what the player is doing... isolate that in your listening and hear how the bassist integrates into the whole. Hear how it works and try it yourself. Are you moving things along, providing a base? Are you playing rhythmically or melodically and why?

3. As for composition/melody, I'm not a songwriter or composer but I do an awful lot of improvisation and have for a very long time. I've studied it and work on it constantly. Improvisation is a form of melody composition... you know: they are playing the changes, so now you play something new and different... invent a melody right now right away.

Some pointers maybe you can use...

- have a plan... know where you are starting, where you are going and what to do when you get there

- your melody can be chord based or scale based, leads in different directions sometimes

- your melody should have a tonal focal point... a starting and ending spot, a complete circle, a "home base"... kind of like the note everything else is wrapped around or ... its kind of tough to verbally describe, so I'm probably sounding crazy here. Just think "where's home base and how do I leave and how do I get back?"

- you can repeat phrases as long as you have some slight changes to them (otherwise they are boring)

- use a step-wise motion with few giant leaps; leap for effect now and again sure, but don't make a habit of it. Listeners often have trouble following giant leaps, it can be jarring. When you use them, use them in logical places.

- have a tonal motif.. long and short phrases, long and short notes.. it need not be complex to work

- work with the rhythm and changes not against them. In fact, start with the rhythm. If I can't "feel" the rhythm... the beat.., my improvisations frankly stink the place up.

- hum or sing it before you play it. If you can sing it you can play it.

- use repetition and contrast but not too much or because repetition can be predictable and boring and contrast can be confusing to a listener. Its like seasoning the food... gotta know when to use it and how much to use.

- know that the chorus is the song's hook, the most memorable part of any typical song. If you quote anything from any song, quote the chorus. When writing sometimes its best to start with the chorus.

Song structure is typically something like AABA where A is the "verse" and B is the "bridge" or "chorus".
Isolate the A part and the B part in your listening. Notice how the B part is different.. I mean "how" as in melody, harmony, tempo and rhythm wise how it is different structurally. Does it flow easily from the verse or is it more of a contrast? How does the A part get to the B part and how does the B part get back to the A part? (Reading music can help here... you can actually see it written out)

Lyrics tell a story but they also cement a melody in a person's brain. If I say "I read the news today... Oh, boy" or "She'll be comin' round the mountain when she comes" what do you hear in your head? Use a melody that makes the lyrics seem a natural extension of it or lyrics the natural extension of the melody. Again, hum it. Does it go up and down a lot in pitch or does one note seem to flow naturally into another? Which do you like better? Which sounds more natural?

I listened to this tune. I hear a nice Dm progression with a i - iv - v mix. Well suited to play a minor pentatonic scale to construct the melody to play over. However, as we all know this is a limited vocabulary combined with limited chords, which constrains the song from expanding to much other than a blues jam. Your bass is targeting the D which emphaises the Aeolian mode (good start), however, for more non-blues modern feel, try targeting the G to hear that Dorain feel (Dorian will add years to this classic vibe - thats what the text books tell us...). You will also need to expand the progression beyound the i, iv and v chords to create a bridge which will pull you out of the pentatonic scale and permit the melody to bloom and the song to tell a story.

Take this "critical analysis" with a grain of salt. I am a student of the arts myself. What I hear is a very nice piece. But to take it to the next level, I feel, you need to do more than simply play what your current ears hear. Expanding the chords will be a step in the right direction - as I said I did not hear much beyound Dm, Gm, Am (is that right?). But expand them where? how?. That is where the "tools" we have discussed can help. That is the work you have to do.

You are going in the right direction, but the road is long and many of us will never reach the end. Even Moses was not allowed to get to the promised land, but he was given a glimise from the mountain top. Some times that can be enough. So keep at it.

good stuff Jdew. Worth the price of the ticket.

You got it, that's where I is and what my goals are

Upon reflecting on this, for my level of music knowledge I'm probably biting off way more than I can swallow. Per "the book" I should be learning my scales, arpeggios, keyboard fingering, music reading, chord construction and all the other basics. But I've got to have fun to keep my interest, so I jump in head first, make something, see if it sounds relatively good to my ears and fix as I can. I guess I'm realizing that I'm at the point where I need to seek an appropriate book(s) on the subject(s) or take lessons. This and the tools that others use is what I'm now exploring to map a path.

As for your other comments, thanks. I'm sure entire books could be written on each point you made.

You too have good comments but much is beyond my level.
Aeolian? Dorian?

This I can tell you
Verse
Dm Gm
C Fmaj7
Dm Gm
C Dm

Chorus
C Dm
C Dm A

Nothing more than adjusting where the half steps and whole steps are in a scale.

Thus, learn your theory.

Aeolian is just a minor scale. Dorian is a variation of a minor scale.

Any root chord has a relative 6th that is minor and shares the same notes, but the W and H are in different places.

C major and A minor have the same notes. Until you know what major and minor are though, that means nothing.

Start with WWHWWWH. That is the way to remember the steps of a major scale. (But to know that, you have to know half steps and whole steps. See how it spirals quickly?)



You should have been at the rehearsal when an old band was playing Bowie's "Let's Dance". The bass player, non reading, non "music knowing" kept asking "Where does it go to the B?" After 4 times I went ballistic and screamed at him "It NEVER goes to a B. It goes to a B FLAT!!! The key the song is in! There is NEVER a B anywhere in this song. There is no B in the key of B flat! Take a music lesson so you don't sound so stupid."

That didn't go over well.

At all.

But for all the things I am, tactful is not one of them.

This is my simple attempt to analyze the chord progression which the hope of giving you a boost up a level or two. Here are the chords you have availalbe in D minor (aka D Aeolian).

i D min
iio E dim
III F Maj
iv G min
v A min
VI Bb Maj
VII C Maj

Each position in the scale has a role/function in relation to the other chords (...due to that order of half steps and whole steps in a scale which Eddie pointed out)

So your verse is : i, iv, VII, III. Followed by i, iv, VII, i,

The starting iv, VII is a partial cadence generally used to set up resolution. However, you delay that resolution by going to the III. Then finalize with a i, iv, VII, i which is then a full cadence for resolution. Good job with that. I'm guessing your ear told you to go back to i at that point.

Chorus is: VII, i, VII, i, A?
A is not in the D min scale (but if you like it no problem, but a bit hard to determine why it is there). The Amin would fit the scale but the v chord does not resolve the progression and one is left hanging. By the way, generally the Chorus will clearly identify the Key or Tonal Center which in this case is Dm. But you use include the VII (C major) and end on a chord (A) which not in the harmonized scale. This does not clearify if we are in C or Amin or what key? What does you ear tell you about that ending?

At minimum please consider for entertainment purposes only if needed. By the way, this is what Scaler does for your chord progressions. A couple hours "learning" Scaler Software, in return for a lifetime of better music making.

1.- Learning to read music is also learning music theory. The farther you get into reading music the more theory you will learn and that will kick start you off into more theory.

2- You will know what notes are in a chord, what notes you can play within said chord, what chord extensions you can add to said chords, and what notes may sound bad in said chord.

3- You can analyze what other bass and keyboard players are playing. You can analyze what you are playing.

4- You will know what scales can be used with what chords.

5- You can read notation of music that you like or may like to explore. (IMHO this is faster than trying it by ear.) Note this is much like picking new to you genre styles in BiaB.

There are three types of musicians:
1- some can only play by ear. Throw notation in front of them and they are lost.
2- some can only play by notation. That is they must have notation to play and are lost when someone says "lets play C-Am F-G7" or "lets jam a blues in the key of G", etc.
3- Some whom can play both ways. This is the category I am in and I believe many others are in.

The above is my opinion and others may not agree.

OK, we might be honing in on the Scaler workflow (which I'm still interested in even though it seems an advanced tool).

A year or 2 ago in this forum there was an extensive thread on the Circle of Fifths. What came out of that thread for me was I built a spreadsheet to help organize the info discussed, see below and take with a grain of salt; I can't guarantee its accuracy.

A few items:
1. This spreadsheet has been collecting dust and I've never used it to build a chord progression.
2. My method of building progressions is a combo of capturing what's rolling around in my head and hunting and pecking in BiaB. Sometimes I'll refer to a 1500 chord progression manual that Mario sent me.
3. I will never post anything that doesn't "sound good" to me.
4. My and your info both seem to agree that the Amaj chord is not in the Dm key, yet the Amaj sounds good to me and presumably others. Not sure if I understand this.
5. Is it true that Scaler is this spreadsheet on steroids? If so, is that how you build chord progressions?

Essentally, yes. But the Circle of Fifths is only a high level overview of the topic. In fact, I keep a copy on my Wall as a constant reminder. Scaler on the other hand, is a complete research tool that goes well beyond this simple illustration. It encompases a graduate study in regards to music theory associated with Chords and Scales. In my early education I learned that, "scales are chords and chords are scales". In other words, "there is no difference between scales and chords". Scaler intergrates these all this to fully confirm this concept.

But then Scaler does further in terms of creating midi and accompaniment. You may or may not have any use for this secondary feature set. But it does add some fun to hear any of the scales and chords which it can present.



It is common to hear a major/minor substitution in a chord progressions. Only one note changes (the third) which is very often heard in bluesy numbers. So you are not the first to create this sound. My thoughts were that placing this specific substitution at the end of a phrase with no resolution may be a bit odd. But I honestly did not hear this during my listen so I trust it sounded fine as you played it.

Good questions. I hope my rambling is helpful. I suspect it may be best if you and I did a screen share some evening so I can show you a bit of how Scaler works. Otherwise, there are no end to the videos on line. But I may be able to save you some time. Fact is all that you need is in any good Theory book, but what fun is that?

Actually it kinda sorta it, even though it is buried deep in theory and sounds like a pile of crap. There is a strange, wild chord called a Minor Major Seventh which is composed of the Root, Minor Third, Perfect Fifth, and Major Seventh. In the key of Dm, it would be D, F, A, C#. I don't know where you'd use it (I never would other than maybe a passing tone) but some of the jazz guys may have used one. Play a minor 7th and sharp the top note. It is truly cacophonous, but discordant harmony usually is.

...

@Musicstudent

This is my studio clock, Dan.



The stupid part is that it runs on a AA battery, and as the second hand advances, I hear tick-tick-tick-tick....

So if I record vocals I have to take the clock down, remove the battery, do the part, then put it back up. That condenser mic I have up there is REALLY sensitive. I did a track some time back and as I played it back in solo mode I head that damned clock.

Eddie, I had a very similar clock for years. It died. I replaced it with the picture.

Not an issue if you play in time to the clock, Eddie...lol

The truth is, it is more than a little challenging to play accurately at sixty BPM.

Billy

WOW,
there's so much push toward scales, theory and formality that I'd almost mistake this as a Music Teacher chat group.
C.V. time:
I took three bass lessons back in 73, (they were free with my purchase of a bass).
I was shown five guitar chords in 76, (they were all my room mate figured I could cope with and two of them were cheat chords).
I did two years of once a week cello lessons in the early 2000s. This required me to learn to read tenor clef on top of the bass clef I'd absorbed over time, which isn't useful in the wider scope of things.
From 73 until now I've played, written & listened.
I know I don't write songs that please many people but they often please me. At other times they don't please me but I learn from the doing.
I've learnt a few more chords along the way but more usefully have learnt to move chord shapes around to find a sound.
Many of the "exotic" scales are simply retrofitted academic justifications for something having sounded good in context.
Pentatonic is melody made easy, melody made lazy & melody made cliche for very obvious reason - using it can lead one that way. At other times it's a brilliant way to express & work within limitations.
It is useful to hear and accept that something sounds good in context when playing & writing.
Having fun will lead to learning along the way.
The more one looks to formality to guide the way the more one will be inclined to go that way.

I am a big proponent of education and the acquisition of knowledge. That is true whatever the subject matter.

Music theory has many uses and is a valuable asset.

When all this changes is when you step on stage to play live. At that point, school is over, and you need to put what you have learned into practice. Obviously, if you are playing in an orchestra, you have to sight-read the music, so that skill is in use, but there is no time to think about it.

If you are the lead instrument playing a solo based on what the rest of a popular band is playing, there is no time to be thinking about theory, what scale will fit, or what mode you want to use.
As rayc indicated, how you form that solo will be a function of how "formal" or "informal" your training likely was. I can listen to someone play and tell you they went to Berkeley School Of Music.

Creativity is both expected and beneficial for musicians. But... the environment you are playing in will dictate what is acceptable. If you are playing by yourself, it is of little or no importance what you play. Play exactly what you like.

Theoretical understanding is a device by which musicians communicate and are able to play together and stay within a specific genre/style of music.

If we are playing together in a modern jazzy form of the blues, for example, a 13th chord would be expected. If we are playing a typical old-school blues in the style of Muddy Waters, for example, a 13th chord would screw up the whole thing. If you continued to make those types of mistakes, using chords that are inappropriate for the style, because you don't know any better, you likely would not be playing there on the next set.

Education is optional, but there is defiantly cause and effect associated with those decisions.

Billy