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Re: Where are the Electric Guitar Soloists ?? John Conley #73436 05/23/10 11:31 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 38 Santa Barbara, CA P Producer Yoda OP Enthusiast
OP Producer Yoda Enthusiast P Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 38 Santa Barbara, CA	Hello John Conley, Gee . . . my intention was not to ruffle anyone's feathers. The first paragraph was to try to clarify what I had in mind as "Basic Rock" as mentioned in the previous post by PeterGannon. The paragraphs following the first one starts with the statement "If I was the producer . . ." Its just what I might do if I was in charge. Its just a guess as what I might do without knowing all the requirements set forth by PG Music for creating Real tracks. Nothing I said was meant to be a criticism about anything that was done. All tracking engineers, including myself, all do things differently. As long as the result works, there really is no "right" way or a "wrong" way. All I wanted to do was present another "production food-for-thought". My years of experience of tracking, mixing and producing would lead me to trying to achieve a result that is most versatile. Therefore, I would not include too much room ambiance . . . IF I was the producer . . . but thats just me. I apologize if you thought something I said was a criticism. That was not my intention. It is not my opinion that anything was done "wrong". What exists for Real Tracks are all great. I'm just human . . . I want more. LOL Well . . . you know about opinions . . . everyone has one. The Forum is one of those places where we can express such opinion. And thats what it was . . . just an opinion. Thanks Ed Layola www.pointconceptionstudio.com

Re: Where are the Electric Guitar Soloists ?? Producer Yoda #73437 05/23/10 11:41 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 7,687 Redondo Beach, Ca. jazzmammal Veteran
jazzmammal Veteran Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 7,687 Redondo Beach, Ca.	While I agree the more soloists the better, consider the primary mission of these Real Tracks is to provide high quality backing tracks, not a complete finished product. All the pro's at PG HQ and there's more than you probably know certainly know that a finished song will have well written song specific lead lines, licks, rhythm figures etc that would be impossible to create a RT for because as you said there's no way for the creator of the RT to know ahead of time what you're going to come up with. There are things that are simply part of the deal when using RT's that don't lend themselves to a finished studio product such as the fast/slow leslie on the B3 or the sustain on the piano. Since these programs allow the user to put in their own chords, there's no way for the chords on those two instruments to flow smoothly from one to the other whether it's the leslie ramping up or down or the piano sustain. They both sound choppy in certain places and that's just the way it is. There's already a huge wishlist for more backing tracks. Strings and horns are probably in first place right now but there's all kinds of people requesting mandolins, harmonicas, orchestral instruments, accordians, more country, more bluegrass, more rock, folk, jazz fusion, all kinds of stuff. Those probably take priority over more soloists but of course that's PG's decision. The other thing is we're already at 80 gigs now for the WMA UltraPak and what 2-300 gigs for the audiophile version? It's getting overwhelming now to go through a lot of that to try different things out so to create soloists in all those styles and tempos would quickly fill up even these new 2 TB drives. We've had discussions about the best way to organize and retrieve a specific RT and it's not going to be easy. I'm certainly not predicting what they're going to do, and I totally agree it would be way cool to have a soloist to go along with each style with lots of tempo variations. I'm just pointing out it's big now and to add what everybody wants would make the RT library absolutely ginormous like my daughter says but it sure would be fun to play with. Bob Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.

Re: Where are the Electric Guitar Soloists ?? jazzmammal #73438 05/24/10 07:51 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 8,333 London, Ontario, Canada John Conley Veteran
John Conley Veteran Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 8,333 London, Ontario, Canada	In order to provide perspective. 1. The docs are trying to get me as close to dead as possible and stop. 2. I take a LOT of narcotics. 3. The original guts of the software involves adding chords, picking a style, and then going from there by taking your mp3 or laptop on the 'road'. Or using it at home. 4. We are getting more and more 'mixer' types, who I sort of understand, but don't. I'm often curious about how producer A) did the setup and recording and how B) did the same thing. The two uses are totally the opposite in many ways. IE mixer crowd vrs Band in a Box crowd. Taking the cowbell as an example, one could record it about 500 ways. For use in Band in a Box it needs to be generic, midi one would presume, and then you get control if you understand midi and all the gyrations you can go thru with velocity and other stuff I don't care to know. Or want to.. I want to play! If they give me a bunch of blank tracks and a scale grid and tell me put a quarter note here for cowbell, and a box pops up and I get to chose midi or RealCowbell, pitch, attack, volume, etc from the dropdown menu, then comes the effect menu and I get to add warm or ambient, or cowbell in the monastery, well, maybe I'm interested. But dang I wanted a cowbell on beat one for 3 measures and that does what for the audience (Dig?) I'm better off, even as a one man band, to haul up an audience member and have them come up, explain when I pat you on the but you hit it. Pick..never mind...way more fun, start out with Mary had a little lamb (ding), and then do the actual song. Mess it up and laugh. Not enough Laughter. And I throw cow patties against the cracked worn barn door on a hot summer's day and the wasps congregate. The border collie wants me to throw a stick and the cicadas high pitch ebbs and flows in the soft afternoon light as it filters through the old barn wall, the dust in the warm breeze floats while flies buzz around us. Don't take anything as a shove, take it as a question to be answered, for you don't state your gear, your starting nor ending point, no pointers to your work, and no examples of what you've done with the software. Been around a while, I have, and many of those here have heard the few songs I post, I use the software to make backing tracks for friends, rehearsals, and myself for fun and practice. In reality the wife and I play gigs as a duo, flute (her) and keys (me) and we do ancient Celtic Music, most of which people don't get. They think Robin Hood. So I do a diddy on this piece was in this movie, for example Suo Gan, and some of them realize where they heard it. My wife does melody and improv, every 3 rd or 4th song she rests for a verse or 2 and I improvise, and due to more than 1/2 of it being in 6/8 12/8 I have never managed to put the sets into Band in a Box and end up happy with the end result. If required my wife, with too many years of training, and a bit short of a Masters in Music Ed at university, can lay down a piano backing track I write for 2 hands, and we use that to get us to the 'commercial' level. We were getting $250 for 3 hours, and I decided that the setup, take down, and other work did not equal the cash outcome, and I've cut that back to 3 or 4 times a year. We have a light jazz set done with Band in a Box, it's pick nik music, and I enjoy that a lot more, play in a park, I just have to have the foolproof covers ready for my big Bose system, it would kill me if that got wet. John Conley Musica est vita

Re: Where are the Electric Guitar Soloists ?? John Conley #73439 05/24/10 10:46 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 241 David Walker Apprentice
David Walker Apprentice Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 241	Yoda, Just a thought... There are complimentary programs that PGMusic sells at a very low price which has tons of electric guitar riffs. They also have wav and midi files on the disc which can be used in Real Band or BB. I don't know how RB imports a section, wheather it's a midi or a wave, but someone here on this web page could probably explain it better. The programs I am talking about are Guitar Star (Brent Mason-Country), Rock, Blues, and Jazz Guitar Band. Each one of these programs contain approximately 80 to 100 riffs which could be used and some get pretty dirty, musically speaking of course. Most of them can be chained together to form longer riffs. Hope this helps. PS You do have to know how to use Real Band though.

Re: Where are the Electric Guitar Soloists ?? John Conley #73440 05/24/10 11:46 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 7,803 Pawling New York R Rob Helms Veteran
Rob Helms Veteran R Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 7,803 Pawling New York	One thought is that there are some quite nice guitarist around here these days. Some might be interested in laying down a track or two for you over a BiaB arrangement for a reasonable price. Ask and ye might receive! Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2022, Realband, Harrison Mixbus 32c version 9.1324, Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.

Re: Where are the Electric Guitar Soloists ?? Rob Helms #73441 05/24/10 08:04 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Feb 2002 Posts: 196 Sydney,NSW,Australia F FrankK Apprentice
FrankK Apprentice F Joined: Feb 2002 Posts: 196 Sydney,NSW,Australia	Yoda, (I'd just like to add I don’t read your first post as a criticism.) I think your ideas are well worth PGMusic looking at given your background experience. I agree also that additional riffs are the way to go rather than solo melodies. I have used the blues ‘solo’ chordal riffs to good effect so far and some more clean guitar would also be useful. Of course with a clean sound, FX plug-ins could then be applied to these clean chordal riffs to broaden their application even further. But more riffs of what ever kind would be great. e.g check out these 100 riffs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNq94ZaZ0Yk&feature=related Cheers F Last edited by FrankK; 05/24/10 08:21 PM.

Re: Where are the Electric Guitar Soloists ?? FrankK #73442 05/25/10 04:10 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 8,333 London, Ontario, Canada John Conley Veteran
John Conley Veteran Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 8,333 London, Ontario, Canada	We are at a 'crossroads' of sorts. Band in a Box can't use riffs, fills, etc. This should be in the RealBand section or Real Band and Beyond. That's my point in all this, Band in a Box was made so you can pull out you laptop on a break, enter the chords for Sweet City Woman, and play it next up, and do a decent job of it. The other stuff is for people who want to fiddle around and step enter a lick or whatever. I understand why you might do that, but I still don't get it. If as a one man show, I wanted that tune so bad, I'd just cue it as a break song. I know my rendition of Whiter Shade of Pale isn't just like the original. But we are back to having people who've not heard it for years come up and thank you, and on the other side the one in a hundred person who remembers the thing the way it was, and comes up and wants you to change bars 40 to 44 with this...that my friends is YOU. Not the audience. That's the part I will never get.... Now if it's your original composition don't you write the whole thing? Because if it gets anywhere near published THEY will changed it big time. John Conley Musica est vita

Re: Where are the Electric Guitar Soloists ?? John Conley #73443 05/25/10 07:36 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 122 New York, New York T tradivoro1 Apprentice
tradivoro1 Apprentice T Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 122 New York, New York	Somebody mentioned this earlier and I'll expound on it a little bit more... You can definitely get a good guitar solo out of biab in it's present state by compositing solos (I'm talking about version 2010)... Basically you have to generate as many solos as it takes and under different chord progressions, then export all those solos to a daw program... Putting each in a separate track and stacking them, you then go through each individual solo, muting the parts you don't like and keeping the parts you do like... You may have to cut and paste some parts... After a while, you will come up with a good solo... Also, used judiciously, great solos can obtained from the metal guitar soloists... I would strongly recommend springing for the latest biab since the soloists there will help achieve what you want... Also, the ability to automatically port files over to your daw will help immensely with time issues... Just my 2 cents...

Re: Where are the Electric Guitar Soloists ?? tradivoro1 #73444 05/25/10 09:16 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: May 2008 Posts: 5,063 Kentucky USA Sundance Veteran
Sundance Veteran Joined: May 2008 Posts: 5,063 Kentucky USA	Frank, No offense is intended here but the link you posted should be titled "signature licks" as you are able to name the song each one of them comes from as he plays. A generic riff is one that is common for the genre and is heard in many songs. Just pointing that out to keep down confusion of term "riff" in the context I was using it. John, no offense to you, but not every one uses the program just for backing tracks. It is great for that but it is also marketed as a songwriting tool. In fact it's recommended to songwriters in the number one selling songwriting book right now. If I was only using it for accompaniment of covers, I would still want more lead guitars. Why, because the ones that are already in there make me want more. I agree with Bob about the size but that hurrdle will have to be addressed somehow as it's going to increase no matter what new instruments are added. I'm sure PG is aware and working on that. Which is why I suggested generic riffs based on genre - because that might cover more ground with less lead tracks. However they decide to do it, I"m glad more lead tracks are coming. This is a wonderful product. I love it. Josie Beck Youtube Channel Josie Beck Soundcloud

Re: Where are the Electric Guitar Soloists ?? tradivoro1 #73445 05/25/10 10:41 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 7,687 Redondo Beach, Ca. jazzmammal Veteran
jazzmammal Veteran Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 7,687 Redondo Beach, Ca.	Quote: ...Basically you have to generate as many solos as it takes and under different chord progressions, then export all those solos to a daw program... Putting each in a separate track and stacking them, you then go through each individual solo, muting the parts you don't like and keeping the parts you do like... You may have to cut and paste some parts... After a while, you will come up with a good solo... Real Band, Real Band, Real Band. As I said in my first reply to this thread, this is a prime reason RB was created. It generates all the Biab parts using both midi and Real Tracks/Drums that Biab does (except for the midi soloists) up to 48 tracks worth. It uses the same styles, the same chord grid, the same part markers and you can change these up on each track. No need to export or drag anything unless you just like working in another DAW because that's what you're used to. Otherwise RB basically does it all. Bob Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.

Re: Where are the Electric Guitar Soloists ?? Sundance #73446 05/25/10 11:23 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 38 Santa Barbara, CA P Producer Yoda OP Enthusiast
OP Producer Yoda Enthusiast P Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 38 Santa Barbara, CA	Hello, I have to agree 100% with what sundance said. I understand that some of us use BIAB as backing track for live performance. Some use BIAB as backing track just for their own use to record their own composition. I have been helping with different local bands using BIAB for many years. A band usually has one or two song writers in the group. BIAB can easily come up with the FEEL of the song when a new song is presented to the rest of the band. It serves to save hours of verbal description by the song writer trying to explain the FEEL of the song. One listen . . . and everyone in the band GETS IT. They go through the song an make changes and in short order the song takes on the character of that particular band. BIAB always saves time for any band to put a new song into their live play list. Its is not unusual to present the band with several variations of usable styles. The few bands I helped out all ended up buying BIAB. From time to time, they are back in the studio to record their song that they used BIAB to learn and refine the song. Mind you, these are local unsigned bands playing gigs whenever they can get one. All I can say is that, after BIAB, the band isn't writing and playing songs that all sound the same any more. How many "local" CD releases have you heard where nearly all the songs sound the same ?? For any songwriter, BIAB of any version is the best thing available to "audition" a style for a new song. In many ways, just playing a new song using BIAB in various styles often ends up improves a song by new inspiration. With BIAB new changes and experiments become very simple . . . which allows the songwriter to concentrate on being musically creative. Using BIAB as a song writing tool can't help but expand the writing palette of any writer. For studio recording . . . I don't get to use BIAB very often. Most studio clients are "bands". But from time to time I'll get a singer / songwriter without a band of his own. Thats when I fire up the BIAB. Back in the "only MIDI" days it took a lot of work to make the tracks sound acceptable to record. It required another DAW to Groove quantize and edit individual MIDI tracks. With Real Tracks, BIAB usefulness in a studio has increased 10 fold. My first use of Real Track for a studio project is what started this thread. Real Tracks and Real Drums is in its infancy. I can't wait to see what it would be capable of in 5 years. Currently, Real Drums is stereo, but its quite usable. I am able to re-EQ the stereo tracks by creating 3 or 4 stereo drum tracks with different high pass, bi-polar, and low pass filters applied to each track. There are other "stereo" tricks that are available to gain control over a "stereo" source. BIAB is a very versatile software that can be used for many purpose. The addition of Real Tracks and Real Drums is probably a milestone and probably the best thing ever to have happened to BIAB. I understand that its just a few of us that have a recording studio set up available, but if you do. BIAB's Real Tracks and a good session player for solos can produce a very good sounding final product. Thanks Ed Layola www.pointconceptionstudio.com

Re: Where are the Electric Guitar Soloists ?? Producer Yoda #73447 05/25/10 04:15 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: May 2005 Posts: 1,992 Canada M manning1 Expert
manning1 Expert M Joined: May 2005 Posts: 1,992 Canada	yoda. re drums. couldnt you also do this. lets say you wanted to build a lib of one shot drum hits. viz..do lots of generations of stereo drum traks. then convert to mono traks. snip out the drum hits you like , put em in your special drum lib , condition em further n then drop the hits you like into various points in the song ?? for example lets say you like a certain cym sound. cut it out n put it in the lib. then just slot it in on the time line where you want it in the song. in summary , you could have RB generate a drum trak n then add samples of drums youve made or got from somewhere to add further variety etc etc. just sayin you dont HAVE TO use stereo drum traks. for example , lets say you want that 50's drum sound. turn the trak to mono, or even slam it thru a tape machine n record back in before you add other traks. for even more variety, and its a trik ive done in powertraks in the past. is to fill a trak with a midi drum pattern or a pattern ive built, then move the midi pattern up or down one or more semitones et voila with an external midi multi timbral unit.. get a bunch of different sounds or say use a plug in. its a neat trik to try cos suddenly a boring midi pattern might get interesting with a likle editing. its all experimentation eh ?? in summary..loads of options i would suggest. real drums plus your own custom drum hits plus midi drum traks driving a plug in and/or external midi unit that has lots of drum sounds in. another way to get one shot drum sounds is to rent a few midi modules with loads of drum sounds n record as one shots n add to the one shot lib. some people also augment with drum sounds from around the house. the rubbermaid lid, tapping a mic in ones pocket can yield sorta a kik drum..lol. sample manipulation is interesting n fun mate. for a nutty dragon song i was doing once i recorded a vacuam cleaner for example. for the baby dragon sound (who the heck knows what one might sound like..lol.) i recorded my siamese cat n then changed the key of the audio sample. made it higher. for example , lets say a certain real drum cymbal is sorta there. nothing to stop you getting a one shot of the audio n changeing it. as jazz said..for all the above experimentation...RB is the product to use. mebe rough out song idea in biab, then add all the song details n iceings in RB. all the best. retired puter engr....powertracks on amd......NICE ! "what is the black art of audio engineering ?" my silly songs...motagator.com/bmanning see my tips in the tips section.

Re: Where are the Electric Guitar Soloists ?? Sundance #73448 05/26/10 03:55 AM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Feb 2002 Posts: 196 Sydney,NSW,Australia F FrankK Apprentice
FrankK Apprentice F Joined: Feb 2002 Posts: 196 Sydney,NSW,Australia	Quote: Frank, No offense is intended here but the link you posted should be titled "signature licks" as you are able to name the song each one of them comes from as he plays. A generic riff is one that is common for the genre and is heard in many songs. Yes you are quite right of course. The riffs I really mean are those in the BIAB blues solo used in my GBU piece. I don't quite agree with John on this issue. The riffs are simply a sequence of notes that are melodic with a definite style played for a given chord. That's how the current BIAB guitar solos work as I understand it. So more of these would be on my wish list. Cheers F Last edited by FrankK; 05/26/10 03:57 AM.

Re: Where are the Electric Guitar Soloists ?? FrankK #73449 05/26/10 01:10 PM Band-in-a-Box for Windows
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 38 Santa Barbara, CA P Producer Yoda OP Enthusiast
OP Producer Yoda Enthusiast P Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 38 Santa Barbara, CA	Hello manning1, I think I understand what you are describing. What you said is one of many ways to add / augment /replace drum sounds for a Real Drum track. BUT . . . what someone can do will greatly depend on the available software / hardware a user has on hand. I am luckier than most. While I am not an accomplished drummer, I can play well enough to play in an amateur "local cover band". I also have full Roland electronic kit that I use to record percussion parts in MIDI. If I can use the stereo output created by Real Drums, I would use my mixing tricks to process the stereo track to get the Real Drums to sit better in the final mix. This is the least painstaking way to go. Fortunately. for songs that I can use Real Drums in the final mix, the tracks are so well recorded that just some creative EQ is the only thing needed for the final mix. If I need to add additional "percussion hits" to add to the Real Drum track, I would just use what "sound module / software" available to add to the Real Drum track. The main difference is that I would add these "new percussion hits" as a new player in a "band" as if the "band" added a "percussionist". My reason for treating the "additional percussion hits" in this manner is that the drummer playing the Real Drum track is already busy enough. Remember, he only has 4 limbs available to play with. When you treat additional percussion hits as a "new player", you mo longer have to worry about matching any "ambiance" or "sound character" to whats heard on the Real Drum track. However you add the additional percussion hits, its MIDI so you can edit them until it sounds right. Once it sounds right, just mix it into the final mix so it sounds like it belongs in the song. If I need SEPARATED DRUM TRACKS, for me, I would do thin in an external DAW. That is, only if you want to duplicate the drummer's playing style used to create the particular Real Drum track you are using. I would use my Ableton (sample based sequencer). I would first generate the stereo drum track for a song using Real Drum. Much of the Real Drum track is repetitious depending on where the chords were entered. All you need to do is break is down to various repetitious patterns to create individual "audio clips". Then in Ableton, I would then recreate each "audio clips" from Real Drums except each drum sound will be on separate "tracks" and individually controllable. I like my Ableton because I can create "drum kits" that is MIDI triggered but plays back sampled individual drum hits. You get the natural "recorded sound" and MIDI editing. Most software sample based sequencers, drum machines and samplers will have this ability. BUT . . . If I was NOT trying to emulate the drummer's playing style that was used for a particular Real Drum track. I would just create a new drum track in Ableton . . . much faster and painless than trying to re-create a particular drummer's playing style. Perhaps in the near future, there might be "Real DRUMMER" . . . a counterpart to Real Band. In another words, "Real DRUMMER" can import Real Drum track from BIAB and give you individually controllable drum tracks. Perhaps up to 16 "Real DRUMMER" tracks . . . Hmmmmm . . . Of course . . . you would have to BUY "Real DRUMMER" and the new Real Drummer styles. Ed Layola www.pointconceptionstudio.com

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"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."

"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."

"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."

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