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I am new to this forum, and I would like to say that BIAB has enabled me to make some songs that I think are quite good.
I have issues though, and I need to discuss some of them with the general anonymous public before I explode.
...
I write my songs, you know, by starting with what I want to say, crafing the lyrics and an accompanying melody. Using experiences, Open Office Writer, a rhyming dictionary, thesaurus, and bottle of Bacardi.
Then I add a song form, progression, rhythm, basic instrumentation. BIAB is just great for this part.
My lyrics are merely stuff I wanna say. Stuff I feel, places I've been, women I've loved.
But I am a bad vocalist, which everyone would concur, if they heard me sing.
My instrumental abilities are not that great either.
Plus I am 50 something, and not really anything to look at, like a performer needs to be.
So do those limitations automatically dis-qualify a person from having their songs considered by people who have the capability to perform them good?
In my opinion, they shouldn't matter. The song should matter.
Self-interest prevents people from working together, unless there is for-sure dollars coming.
The reason I ask is that experiences have really discouraged me recently.
I feel like all the adequate to excellent instrumentalists and vocalists out there have all agreed to some unwritten law that they will all collude to ignore home-made music, if it is created by some unknown who cannot perform it very well.
I realize that this is just a big neurotic imagining, but, damn, it hurts.
Even people I've known for a long time, you know, instrumentalists and vocalists, don't seem to want anything to do with my songs. I mean, they don't even want to HEAR them.
There are always the professional 'studios' that will be glad to smile at you and tell you how great you are and how, for a mere $1000 they will fully produce your song, but I'm not able to afford that. And I wouldn't want to if I could afford it.
The fact is, is that if a handsome young man, with a really good voice, like Kip Moore or Tim McGraw, for instance, sang my song, it would be a big hit (imho).
But there is absolutelty no way to have them consider it, unless I can fork out 1-2K for a demo.
And for the general anonymous public to hear, consider, or like it, I need a singer and a band which I don't have.
So...
Who has a solution/recommendation/trollish shootdown to my quandry?
Now...
Having said all that, I would really feel dumb if people now say: "OK lets hear these songs, then." out of sympathy.
Lets just discuss this issue without any specific example. I'm sure there are others here on this very forum, users of BIAB, who have created stuff that they think is good, but for one reason or another, will never see it all the way through to being performed in front of real live people.
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This is a very friendly site so a lot of song reviews reflect that friendliness. If you want a critical review just state so in your posting and it will happen. Another free site where fellow songwriters critic each others songs is BroadJam. BroadJam also has contacts to people that are looking for a specific song genres and they constantly have contests with the winners getting money making a deal. However if you want your songs professionally reviewed you must join a site like Taxi. It cost but you will get an unbiased review of your songs. Having said that just be prepared for the worst, but hope for the best! Personally I would start here and let us see exactly what you have. We have beginners to pros here that will help. I know they did a lot for me and I’m 66 and holding onto everything I can! Good luck because breaking into the business is extremely hard to do.
I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Boy or boy you seem to be over analyzing all this. On one hand music is a business - and every one involved wants to make a buck. So if you want to swim with sharks you have to be prepared to anti-up and get bit at times. Now on the other hand music is a creative art which is a vehicle to express emotion. The true artist doesn' t care about the business side of music. They are the talent. Folks will find them or not. They don't need anyone else as music is both the jouney and the goal. The world is full of artists. You may be one, I am one, along with many of the folks here in the forum. We don't all have record deals - but we don't need them. Here is a simple fact. A lot of us artists just simply ain't that good. True talent is not given to everyone. Enjoy what you have not want you want. Be the artist.  Wow, don't I feel all zen right now 
Dan, BIAB2024, SoundCloud Win11, i7(12thGen), 32GB, 1TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD), 2TB Libraries, 1 TB(WD-Black), 2TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD)Data, Motu Audio Express, Keystation 61, SL88 Studio, Reaper
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Ok Skyoma, let's hear these songs. LOL! Seriously this is a friendly place so it's a good place to give your songs a test drive.
The only thing there's more of in this world than wannabe writers is wannabe singers who don't write. Ask everybody you see who they know that sings. Go to your local karaoke bars and approach who you like. You'll find someone at least good enough to post your songs who will sing for the fun of it or the exposure. Then you can decide if the songs merit money being spent on a better singer/demo.
You could also find another writer who sings/plays to collaborate with. I wrote some great songs with a co-writer who didn't play or sing. Lots of writers like to write with other good writers. Go to your local songwriters association meeting and meet people or find someone on the web. Bob and I both sing/play/write just fine on our own - we met here and struck up a partnership because we liked each other's writing.
The age problem for songwriters is sounding dated - you may have to work harder making your songs sound current enough to fit the artists you mention.
So cheer up all is not lost. Think creatively and solve your problem. Most of all enjoy the journey. There's no shortage of great songs or songwriters especially in Nashville. Maybe you can beat the odds - maybe not. Don't let the frustration get you down.
Hope that helps.
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Skyoma, a)post your work on the ‘User Showcase’ board and we will be able to give you a better informed view on the above post b)statistically, it is highly unlikely that any of your songs (or indeed any of mine)will ever be picked up and recorded by a major artist. In my case, this has no impact on my desire and motivation to continue making music. c)thanks entirely to the support and encouragement I received on these boards way back when I posted my first composition, I have gone on to compose 2 cds worth of songs which are now on sale at major online stores. d)good luck! Marc
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Quote:
The fact is, is that if a handsome young man, with a really good voice, like Kip Moore or Tim McGraw, for instance, sang my song, it would be a big hit (imho).
I just used this point in another thread! It is true, but it doesn't matter.
Quote:
...So do those limitations automatically dis-qualify ... In my opinion, they shouldn't matter. The song should matter.
Well, the songs do matter ... and so do the relationships, the timing, the "luck"... Just Consider how many songs are written every day. No one can listen to them all. How do you cut through -- relationships.
Quote:
...I feel like all the adequate to excellent instrumentalists and vocalists out there have all agreed to some unwritten law that they will all collude to ignore home-made music, if it is created by some unknown who cannot perform it very well.
Again, go back to how many songs are written everyday. The saying I have heard is that it is not "Who you know", it is "Who knows you and how do they know you?"
Enough of that, what to do:
1.) Do you have a writer's group in your area? join or start one.
2.) Do you go to open mics, writer's nights and listen to the up and coming talent that might be out there
3.) Do you support those "...people I've known for a long time..." by showing up at their performances?
4.) Post music and learn to vocalize better. I can't sing either, but since there is no one else, I do it anyway!
5.) Realize that music is not a money making operation for 99.99% of the songwriters/performers out there. Who makes money in Golf? A handful of touring pros -- the rest is by the manufacturers, the instructors, the golf courses, the 19th hole, etc.... Can you be a touring pro by buying some clubs and practicing? I think Music and Golf (and any other hobby) have much in common.
Last edited by Kemmrich; 05/16/12 04:48 AM.
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Hey guys,
All this advice/encouragement/discouragement is greatly appreciated.
I will cogitate and reread each of your posts. However, Josie, I like your suggestion to go to karaoke bars to find someone whose sound I like and approach them. I do believe I'll try that. So if you live in my area, watch out for the 52 year old guy with a white car bearing gifts and promises! :-p
Skyoma
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p.s.
You know what might be a good way to find these unknowns' songs?
And maybe there are setups like this.
Have a songwriters club, where there are singers, percussionists, a bassist, guitarists, keyboardist, mixer, etc. and they just try out the members stuff. Not a band per se, but enough talent to perform and record the songs.
Call it "HIT-HOUNDS" or something like that. It will need to be genre-neutral.
Members could finance it through various ways.
I think I am gonna form such a club! Any ideas/recommendations/discouragements?
Skyoma
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Skyoma, I think that you will find you're right at home here on the PG forums. We have a wide range of talent, experience, abilities and desires. What we all have in common are two things: a love of music and a desire to learn. Each, in our own way, are students and teachers. My guess, at the risk of being so bold, is that most of the folks here are in their 50's and 60's....some younger, some older. Some have true musical talent, some others, including myself, are what I would call "technicians". We help each other to create, understand and to learn. Therein lies the true value of the group here: committed learners and teachers with a common goal. If you need help...just ask. If you want a critical review...just ask. If you want to have some fun and learn a few things along the way...join us.
Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2024, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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Quote:
... statistically, it is highly unlikely that any of your songs (or indeed any of mine) will ever be picked up and recorded by a major artist. In my case, this has no impact on my desire and motivation to continue making music.
...
Marc
If I posted one of my songs, and it was in demo-quality, I am just sure everyone would love it. Bopping their heads and shoulders and singing along.
I have high hopes for some of my songs, but I don't want to put them out there in a less-than-professional format.
And I do not require a major artist. Just a capable one. You know the qualifications: Engaging, good voice, pick-up truck, etc.
Skyoma
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Once you reach a certain age your wife does not care if you have a hot 19 year old singer you are promoting and playing for. Twenty years ago I would have got the giant hairy eyeball from that woman.
But as Sporty the Drug dealer sang after he heard Methusala lived 900 years:
Who call dat livin, when no gal would give in, to no man who live 900 years.
Ain't neces-clery so!*
*Keep the vegetables and give my a bloody mary, thanks.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Quote:
This is a very friendly site so a lot of song reviews reflect that friendliness. If you want a critical review just state so in your posting and it will happen. ...
Personally I would start here and let us see exactly what you have. We have beginners to pros here that will help. I know they did a lot for me and I’m 66 and holding onto everything I can!
Good luck because breaking into the business is extremely hard to do.
So how can I do it. My voice sucks. Should I post the .MGX file, with a 'piano' melody playing the lyrics.
I know the instruction-sticky would want me to record some sort of vocal track and render an mp3, but it seems like if friendly people, who are willing to help me with this song, want to preview it, and consider it, it would be better if it was in BIAB format. (Version 2012 build350)
Frankly, a lot of songwriters pull their hair out getting the music just so. But I'm from the other side of the tracks. I have made a tentative/suitable accompaniment for my song, but I pull my hair out over the 'WORDS'.
Thus after any comments/criticisms/recommendations have been considered, the accompaniment can be tweaked. But to me, the words are paramount.
Skyoma
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Open an account on Soundclouod, upload your MP3s, (make sure you select NOT FOR DOWNLOAD or whatever theyu say) and post links to them here.
And be aware, this bunch is 1000% honest and we all think every song we have ever written would be a hit if someone famous performed it. I think I can out-write anybody in the known universe. It is that facade of self confidence that keeps local level writers writing. Never stop thinking you are gods gift to music as you think now, and you will be the happiest writer in your home studio. With no gold records on your wall or Grammys on the mantle, but do it for YOU.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023?
2. Send it to us.
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First off, welcome to the forums, and What Everybody Else Said. Especially Eddie just above me, the part about "do it for YOU". I believe I have an interesting perspective on your situation. I am what they call a "filker", i.e., I'm just a singer-songwriter, but I write and perform "filk". Filk is the music of the Science Fiction/Fantasy community. Way back in the days when blogs were hand-cranked mimeograph machines, someone reported from a convention how a few people were staying up late and singing folk songs with altered lyrics, e.g., "When I was flying the skies of Albedo, I fell in love with a Regulan girl." The person misspelled "folk" as "filk", and the name stuck. (Best instant examples of filk: Weird Al's "Yoda" is perhaps the perfect parody filk. His "The Saga Begins" is perhaps the perfect example of BAD parody filk, i.e., it just retells the story of the movie. David Bowie's "Space Oddity" could be considered filk; Peter Schilling's original riff on it, "Major Tom", absolutely is filk. And the very shortest filk song I know is, "The hills are alive... AAAAAAAH!" [There's also "Flintstone On The Roof" -- "If I were a Flintstone, yabba dabba dabba yabba dabba dabba dabba doo...."]) I attend and perform at between twelve and twenty weekend SF/F conventions a year. Pretty much all of those conventions have late-night "filk circles", open sings where anyone can come and perform. One of the most important aspects of the whole thing is precisely what you're worried about: It's hard enough getting your hopes and dreams and visions and whatever into a song, let alone getting the performance and vocal chops up to professional levels, let alone getting up in front of strangers to perform. So, we have a whole lot of people who simply do it for fun. And we are very kind to them -- we were all there at one point or another. (I entered filk in 1985. By 1988, the community decided I was kinda good. It took me until 1994 or so to agree with them.) Everyone listens, we applaud, if you want critique we will give it as gently as we can. Which leads to: whereabouts are you? If you're in the US, Canada, or Germany, I can recommend a number of conventions where you can be heard with no fear of embarrassment. Heck, you'll get cred if you drop my name -- in the filk world, I'm basically the big fat Springsteen.  There are also filk, and even folk, house parties in many communities. If you know some like-minded singers and musicians, you could even host one yourself. In short, don't worry so much about your voice. Any of your ways of getting a melody would work, as would using some kind of inexpensive pitch tool (e.g., the Pitch Envelope in Reaper, or Melodyne Essential, or even pitch shifting in Audacity) to get yourself on key. And, even if you can't make it work to your satisfaction, you can always find friends who will listen.
Best, Tom SmithWin10/64 • i7-8700K • 24 GB RAM BIAB 2024 • Reaper 7 • Izotope MPS AKG C1000S • IK iRig I/O Pro
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If you are using the PG products (Biab/RB/PT) to record with, your "demo" should/will sound as good as a studio demo, if recorded and mixed properly. They use PC's in their million dollar studios and a wave file is a wave file is a wave file.  Trax
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Quote:
...if recorded and mixed properly...
Therein lies the difference.
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Quote:
...
In short, don't worry so much about your voice. Any of your ways of getting a melody would work, as would using some kind of inexpensive pitch tool (e.g., the Pitch Envelope in Reaper, or Melodyne Essential, or even pitch shifting in Audacity) to get yourself on key. And, even if you can't make it work to your satisfaction, you can always find friends who will listen.
I'm scared, but I'll try. The mix will be elementary. I'd welcome/pay for help.
Thanks for your motivational pep talk.
If anyone likes the song and thinks they can sing it better, I would love to hear it.
I will post it on the Showcase/Soundcloud within about a week. I need to melodyne my voice.
Its called "Softy", a country song about a soft-hearted woman. I copyrighted it in 2011, but weak knees have delayed it's grand debut.
Skyoma
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Dude, I sing like a frickin' bullfrog, but you know what? It's my voice, this is how I sound, and I can't sound like anybody else. And it took a LOT of people telling me that before I accepted me as me. I looked all through Real Band and there isn't a Sinatra plugin.
Write in a key you can sing comfortably. Write in a way that you don't have to try and hold out tied whole notes for 29 bars to where you run out of air. Mainly, DO NOT be tentative. When you hold back, you WILL be flat. Send it out to the back row.
I can only use myself as an example because I have never been anybody else. I retired on New Years Eve when 93 turned into 94. At that point I was the 2nd singer in my band so I sang a lot. 1/4 of the leads and harmony all night long. I could sing then. In the 15 years I was out of it, I did not even sing in the shower, and I lost it. The vocal cords are a muscle like any other muscle and need to be used. Just sing as much as you can, focus on your breathing, sing as much as you can, make sure you sing from the diaphragm and not the throat, and sing as much as you can. Also, sing as much as you can.....
And NEVER be timid about your voice. NEVER. Stay within yourself and you'll be fine.
Edited to add this PS.
This is already a Daryl Hall, and there was already a Freddie Mercury (the 2 male vocalists I hold in THE highest esteem). Now you be you.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023?
2. Send it to us.
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Hey Eddie....+1 on Daryl and Ready Freddie. Those dudes could really belt 'em out...definitely my favs...listen to 'em both all the time. "Every Time You Go Away"...my #1....perfect vocals, great playing, perfect mix...total inspiration everytime!
Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2024, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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