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On the final (end) chord, the instrument really "rings" out. Kinda like a bell. I don't want that. I'd like it softer and what I'd call more natural, in line with the tone of my song.
Say I'm using the 827 acoustic strumming rhythm guitar. 113 tempo, waltz. Just this one instrument.
To get the feel and space I want, I decreased the tempo from 113 to 70 for this final bar. The final chord is sounding very well, a final strum, but the longer the bar is, the more the final chord rings, really pronouncing each string, coming off a little harsh.
I've tried a Hold, reducing volume slightly, going to zero on reverb. No reverb helps, but...
Is there a way I can soften that strum? I'm playing my guitar over it and it's kinda stepping on my added ending notes that would occur during and after the BIAB guitar chord decays.
Thanks.
(I'm not a literate musician, so pardon me if I'm not using the correct terms.)
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For a job like this, especially given that it is one instrument, I would record the song and then use an audio editor. Audacity is one that many people use, and it's free. I would apply a reduction in volume and/or a fadeout. One of the reasons this would give you more control is that editing a stereo file can be continuous / gradual (such as on a fadeout), whereas an adjustment you make in BIAB is measure-by-measure.
You could certainly do this job nicely in RealBand, a DAW software program that is supplied for free with BIAB.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Thank you, Matt.
The moment I hit submit, I thought about RB. I haven't look at it much. I can certain try that, or Audacity, free is nice!, or one of the handful of DAWs I have (and barely understand). I'm getting more comfortable with BB, so thought no harm in asking.
Thanks for taking the time to help me, Matt. Greatly appreciate the input.
2016 BIAB UltraPlusPak HD
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Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 USB 2.0 Audio Interface
M-Audio AV40 Monitors (powered)
Zoom R16 Recorder - Interface - Controller
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Anytime; glad it helped you. I too have not spent as much time as I should with RealBand. I know Cakewalk Pro Audio (the forerunner of SONAR) from so long ago, and it's just easier (inertia) to stay with what you know. If I were starting out now, I would absolutely learn and use RealBand.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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On the final (end) chord, the instrument really "rings" out. Kinda like a bell. I don't want that. I'd like it softer and what I'd call more natural, in line with the tone of my song.
Say I'm using the 827 acoustic strumming rhythm guitar. 113 tempo, waltz. Just this one instrument.
To get the feel and space I want, I decreased the tempo from 113 to 70 for this final bar. The final chord is sounding very well, a final strum, but the longer the bar is, the more the final chord rings, really pronouncing each string, coming off a little harsh.
I've tried a Hold, reducing volume slightly, going to zero on reverb. No reverb helps, but...
Is there a way I can soften that strum? I'm playing my guitar over it and it's kinda stepping on my added ending notes that would occur during and after the BIAB guitar chord decays.
Thanks.
(I'm not a literate musician, so pardon me if I'm not using the correct terms.) Yup...I have run into that too. You need to move the project to a DAW where you can use envelopes or selective audio editing. Reducing the volume "slightly" often isn't enough. You gotta really cut that volume level by a considerable dB level. Often , you can't just look for that held chord in the song to copy/paste, so you really have to work with it where and as it is. I've had some good success in pulling the volume down to make the chord sound like it actually fits at the end. You must ignore the optics of what you're doing, and what it "looks like" in regards to the look of the envelope or the amount you are reducing the level..... listen with your ears and see if it sounds right. That's what matters the most.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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There is a checkbox to adjust RealTracks "shot" velocity (which I believe affects holds, as well as shots, but could be wrong). You may want to check this setting and adjust accordingly. This is a global setting, so it will affect all RealTracks.
Just a thought.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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Good idea from John. I keep both of mine set to zero (Preferences, RealTracks).
There are also similar checkboxes in Preferences, RealDrums.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Thank you, Matt.
The moment I hit submit, I thought about RB. I haven't look at it much. I can certain try that, or Audacity, free is nice!, or one of the handful of DAWs I have (and barely understand). I'm getting more comfortable with BB, so thought no harm in asking.
Thanks for taking the time to help me, Matt. Greatly appreciate the input. I use Audacity for fade ins and fade outs. Only after I have done everything else in RB. In RB I find if I'm going to fade out I save my final mix as XXXfade out.SEQ where XXX is the latest .SEQ name. Then in this copy I go to the end of the recording. Back up about 20 seconds listen to the ending for Ideas. Some times I get the Idea to start fading some of the instruments back before the final fade. Here is how I step down the drums gradually 1)I click about 4 seconds from the end right where there are no drums playing(silent). And select the drum track from there to the end of the song. 2)Go to Edit> Audio Effects > Gain Change and enter -3 and then process. The selected drums Wave form will shrink indicating the amplitude has decreased. 3)Listen to that track (solo) from about 8 seconds to the end. If the fade transition at 4 seconds sounds good and there is no CLICK at the beginning of the fade, do the same thing at 2 seconds from the end of the track, then 1 second. (You can also use bars as your starting point 6 3 2 1) If you hear a click at the beginning of the fade out at 4 seconds from the end that means you chose a starting place in the drum track that had too much sound. Before you Edit > Undo Gain Change. Double click on the drum track which zooms into that track and opens up a window with just the drum track in it. All sound is a sine wave and if you look at the track carefully (expand the wave out, on my machine my mouse wheel does this) You will see points in the track where the wave crosses the center line or there is a clear break in the wave. That is where you want to start a Gain Change. Because there is virtually no sound there. Now go to edit Undo Gain change. In the ZOOM window select a point near 4 seconds to the end (also you can use bar numbers as a guide 6 bars from the end) Find a place where the wave crosses the center line or there is a clear break in the sound wave No Sound. In this zoom window with that point selected Then go back and repeat step 1-3. Practice on drums, then Bass, Piano. I know this sounds difficult but I find its a great way to stop parts at a different place in the ending. Each with a nice fade out. It is destructive but remember this is a copy of your .seq so you can return to the original. If you want to do this to tracks and preserve the original, make a duplicate track of the original and put it on say track 20. If you mess up the track you are working on. Delete the data in the messed up track and duplicate track 20 back to the original track. I've also used this to reduce the volume (gain) of an instrument inside the song, in this case you want to make sure both ends of the gain change are at ZERO AMPLITUDE POINTS. Case in point if you have a cymbal crash that is covering up your vocal (crash is right at the wrong time) Select the entire crash and decrease it by -2 increments until it is the volume you desire. Yes this looks complex, but, it is a great way to clean up peaks and valleys in a track. To boost volume just use positive numbers.
"When you help somebody else you are really helping yourself"
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>>> "On the final (end) chord, the instrument really "rings" out. Kinda like a bell. I don't want that. I'd like it softer and what I'd call more natural, in line with the tone of my song." <<<
This happens to me on occasion as well. According to my workflow for that particular project, like others have mentioned, I handle it in a DAW.
Sometimes I'm working on a project that I don't intend to use a DAW and hate to move my project to another program just to take care of the one guitar ringing to loud on a hold.
For those projects intended to be done from start to finish in BIAB, here's how I tame "the ringing hold".
Select the measure (bar) where the ring out occurs.
Open bar settings (F5) and select the offending track.
From the drop down menu, select Fade (per bar)
Select a negative number ( -1 to -127 )
Normally a negative number between -12 to -24 provides satisfactory results for me. But the song will determine where the hold sits best in the overall mix.
If the hold is the last note of the song, the longer the fade out of the song, the more pronounced the guitar fade will be.
If the hold is somewhere in the middle of the song, be sure to use bar settings again in the next measure to return to normal setting for the guitar track.
Some experimentation may be required. For some songs, the fade out placed on the actual measure of the hold is insufficient to tame the hold. In those cases, I use bar settings in the preceding bar to force the fade out to start earlier. In those cases, the negative number is usually a bit lower. ie: -6 or -8
Experimenting will get it sounding right for you and you get to stay in BIAB. Hope this helps.
BIAB Ultra Pak+ 2024:RB 2024, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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Surgical editing... very fun to do and highly useful.
Zooming in to find the zero crossing point of the wave is sometimes not enough, especially if it's in the middle of a note or sound.... you will still have a very abrupt start or end which is just as bad as a click or pop. You can use an envelope in a case like that to also fade in smoothly but quickly as long as the result sounds natural at some level. If it doesn't sound natural..... UNDO it and try again and keep working until you have it sounding natural, or..... go with plan B. You do have a plan B...right?
Most DAW's such as Sonar, will automatically pick the zero crossing for it's edit point. What I look for is the drop to zero point in the waveform..... the in between the notes or vocal phrases point. Easy to see in most cases by simply looking at the track. To place the envelope nodes properly, a bit of zooming helps.
It's a skill that you get better at by doing it. I also use selective "mute" inside a track on a click or a small pop....you can often zoom in enough to see the actual click.... and it's usually just a cycle or two long.... drag a mute across it and apply. The mute happens so fast you never hear it and especially if you have any other tracks playing.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Surgical editing... very fun to do and highly useful.
Zooming in to find the zero crossing point of the wave is sometimes not enough, especially if it's in the middle of a note or sound.... you will still have a very abrupt start or end which is just as bad as a click or pop. You can use an envelope in a case like that to also fade in smoothly but quickly as long as the result sounds natural at some level. If it doesn't sound natural..... UNDO it and try again and keep working until you have it sounding natural, or..... go with plan B. You do have a plan B...right?
. Zooming in gives me what I need 95% of the time. I have a lot of experience doing this with Just a Tascam DP03 digital recorder and editing it with Audacity. I don't have the luxury of an expensive DAWs. Plan B is explained within the previous post. You are working with a copy of the .SEQ file. So you can always start over. Also I explained you can duplicate the track you are working with prior to doing any destructive edits and if it fails copy that track back to your working track. I have been successful with this technique to eliminate , drums, bass, piano, guitar, vocal mistakes. Its very difficult to drop into a lead vocal track and dub another word or two. The tone changes are sometimes so noticeable you can frustrate yourself. I would rather fix it by track edits when I can. The changes are so small in time that setting an envelope is quite impossible. When a singer turns their head while recording that slight difference in volume can be corrected. Its much faster to edit the waveform than rerecording an entire track. There is a feature in the zoom window. Play the selected area. I expand the track, pick the part that is the wrong level or one that I want to erase entirely and listen. Then I either reset the gain on that section or ZAP IT all together.
"When you help somebody else you are really helping yourself"
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Surgical editing... very fun to do and highly useful.
Zooming in to find the zero crossing point of the wave is sometimes not enough, especially if it's in the middle of a note or sound....
In my experience I have not used zero points in the middle of a note. Usually at the beginning or end of a note, the break in a drum track, space between words in a vocal track.. That said, I listen to what I want to edit out or modify several times before deciding what to do. I have been quite successful removing the BREATH sounds before the initial consonants in vocals. I do it to all of my own vocals even though I usually breath in through my nose. However, in the excitement of the studio I do even make breath noises with my nose breathing.  And another thing I edit out is clicking of a singer's teeth, or tongue and lip noise. again
Last edited by dga; 04/13/16 10:55 AM.
"When you help somebody else you are really helping yourself"
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I don't have the luxury of an expensive DAWs. Is $49 too much for a superb DAW? http://www.pgmusic.com/musiccreator.htmYou need to keep an eye on the Sonar website. Cakewalk has been running a sale on MC7 for months.... unfortunately, it has ended and MC7 is back to it's regular price.... but during the sale it was available for only $20. MC7 is a full featured, fully functional DAW that has lots of bells and whistles to let you work on some pretty intricate aspects of your music. I used the MC series, starting with MC4, for many years. You'd be hard pressed to identify which songs I created in it if you couldn't look at the dates of the songs.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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You guys are incredible...
Hey, I finally opened a song in RB. Dear god...where's that been all my life? The weird endings in BB, worked out fine as-is in RB. Of course, a whole new learning curve to get into, but nice to know it works smoothly...
2016 BIAB UltraPlusPak HD
Windows 8.1
8 GB, 64-bit, 2 TB
Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 USB 2.0 Audio Interface
M-Audio AV40 Monitors (powered)
Zoom R16 Recorder - Interface - Controller
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Yes, RealBand is not all that scary, and it's very powerful. The great feature is to be able to just (re)-generate part of a track instead of the entire track like BiaB does.
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