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Hi
I dont play any instrument and so its difficult for me to gauge the quality of a realtrack compares to a girl/guy playing lets say on a piano in a studio recording through a mic or mics.
I guess what im asking is the realtrack up to the quality for a professional recording artist or would they redo the track again in studio?Obviously I want to produce as much finished tracks as I can without having to pay someone to play a track or tracks on my compositions.Thats the reason for asking.
Another way of putting it is :if im happy with the outcome of how the realtrack plays is the quality up to professional recording standard?(the track being mixed and mastered professionally being a given along with good computer systems etc)
May I add as for me i just produce midi compositions and run them through biab.Even though they obviously dont go note for note on my compositions they always make the composition (even if its turns out a good bit different) way way better.
Its funny too its a programme where not playing an instrument can sometimes lead you to making great sounding music
Its a fabulous technology and a really great company and staff,
Yours Hugh

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This is a very interesting question. I'm doing much the same as you, producing composer's demos. BIAB is indeed wonderful and indispensable for my work.

A few quick reactions to start:

- there isn't anything else like it
- BIAB tracks are being heard in professional recordings, including jingles
- when you mix tracks, it becomes harder to tell what's in the mix
- "If it sounds good, it is good" - Duke Ellington

I have done lots of studio recording. The studios typically use a higher bit and maybe higher sample rate, and almost always 24 bit. This gives you more headroom. BIAB uses CD quality of 16 / 44.1 in the audiophile version. The 'regular' version compresses the tracks to .WMA files resulting in a file about one eleventh the size.

Using a higher bit and/or sample rate than CD quality would make BIAB enormous for distribution. The audiophile drive is about 1.5 terabytes as it is. Nevertheless, there have been a few posts on the Wishlist asking to do this. We users have no way of knowing how the original tracks were recorded, or if BIAB could use tracks of higher quality.

I tried not to get too technical here because I don't know your background in recording. Does this help?


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Hi Matt,
Thank you again for ur replies.
Thats very helpful.
Your quick reactions are all very apt.One thing on the Duke Ellington quote :we dont take into account is the "listener".The ordinary listener to radio or cd or mp3 doesnt distinguish near as much as a musician or producer or songwriter between what top quality and what is just below top quality i think unless the same song is played back side by side for them to listen too.This never happens.
So a good idea for me is too get the audiophile version so I can make Cd quality music.
When you use the term "headroom" do you mean you can have higher levels/output or just more room to play about with effects etc?Would more studios use biab if the bit rate was maxed?Last question what other tools do you find invaluable on the production side?Im saving up to invest in a system/systems that helps from a non musician point of view.
Its taken time for me to start using biab properly but it really is worth the effort.I really started because I could write poems/songs but I never dreamed I could produce the music to go along with them.I really appreciate that Pgmusic has kept it affordable as well.
thanks Hugh

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Studios of course can use multiple tracks of different bit or sample rates; they are converted to the rates used in the master project, so that's not an obstacle for any DAW.

You comments about the final version in MP3 and most people not knowing the difference are true. In fact, it's your original question in reverse: even the regular version of BIAB is pretty hard to tell from the audiophile version. I have posted here many times on the small differences.

More headroom gives you both advantages you cited. Recording engineers would say that the ability to experiment with levels and effects without distortion is critical in mixing, but you always want to get a strong enough input signal on the original recorded track too.

My most important tool when mixing is Ozone by Izotope. It's nice when used sparingly but you can squash out all the dynamic range if you want to, like a poor radio station. I mix for an audiophile listener. If it works for them, it works for anyone.


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Originally Posted By: Hugh2

......if im happy with the outcome of how the realtrack plays is the quality up to professional recording standard?(the track being mixed and mastered professionally being a given along with good computer systems etc)

Hugh


Essentially, the answer is YES.

I've had people ask me, more than one time, "who's playing that instrument?" It sounds that real. It's that good, and the person asking also played that same instrument. One guy, a studio engineer, commented on one of my fiddle parts stating that he could "hear the rosin on the bow and strings". When I tell them its a "real track" they are blown away and often reply... "A computer did that?"... yep, a computer put that part together for me.

As far as I'm concerned, there's a very small but almost negligible difference between the Real Track and tracks that would be professionally recorded in a specific recording session with professional players. Live tracks from a professional studio can sound a bit cleaner or clearer, if you will. This comes from a number of things but as time goes on, I'm hearing some really nice, clean RT's coming out as PG improved things on their end.

So 99% of my stuff is either me recording the track parts live.... Piano, bass, guitars: both electric and acoustic, mandolin.... I use a mic and track those instruments... (piano and bass are midi with samples)

BUT.... in many of those songs, I'm using the Real Track parts for the bass, piano, and drums as well.

In fact... concerning the quality.... suffice it to say, that for most home recording enthusiasts, it's easier to use a REAL TRACK for say.... acoustic guitar and have it sound better than anything they could record at home...the quality is just plain good straight out of the box. (no pun intended) I have since learned how to get a good quality capture on acoustic and even the electric guitar, but when I was first getting started, the RT's were my "go to" resource for acoustic guitar tracks.

I have dozens of my BB/RB/RT songs placed with publishers and libraries and several have been cut into some reality TV shows and documentary made for TV films. So the quality is there. I'm not the only composer/writer who is doing this and placing songs in this manner.

For someone who has a limited budget... the really good studio cats cost big bucks.... Real Band and the RT's are the way to go.

Keep a few things in mind. Try to keep the tempo and the KEY as close as possible to the original key of the RT. You can go to the RT folder and find the track/style and listen to the raw wave to determine the key. This way, you don't end up with the artifacts that come from the time and pitch changes. I've had some of the piano parts in some of my early work sound so bad, I had to use plan "B" as a result. The judicious use of EQ and compression and reverb will also help to make the RT's "pop" a bit. IMHO, some are a bit subdued sounding and need a touch of spice.

The Real Tracks can sound as good if not better than tracks recorded in your studio. Remember, they were recorded in a professional studio by some of the best musicians in the world. IMHO... the secret to getting the most from those RT's is to use a good DAW, learn about music production, and practice, practice, practice your mixing skills. The more you mix and experiment and get feedback on what you're doing, the better you will get with time.

Click on my link at the bottom of this post and listen to the music I'm creating. There are several songs where the mix is 100% BB/with RT's. I rarely if ever use midi from BB. If there's midi in the song, it's me playing the part with a good sampled synth. One user here thought my studio was a big professional setup with the best live players until he found out how I did this and now.... well, he's a regular user here as well.

Last edited by Guitarhacker; 10/11/16 02:52 AM.

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I use many of the BIAB tracks just as they sound with minimal editing. I often replace or create the tracks I know how to play. Guitars, Bass, single line keyboard stuff. I do get many musical ideas from the BIAB tracks before a remove/replace them.
Don't expect the sound you here from a Nashville recording, mixing, mastering studio. BIAB does not mix or master your tracks to sound like a radio hit song. That take years of experience. But you can get decent tracks from this program.


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Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
...
- when you mix tracks, it becomes harder to tell what's in the mix...


Hey Matt, interesting thread here but I'm not sure what you mean by the above. Do you mean the more tracks the more difficult it becomes to differentiate them? Or that a mix inherently makes it difficult to hear individual tracks? From my mixing perspective a good mix allows each track to have it's place on the soundstage. The exceptions for me are intentionally dense "wall of sound" mixes.

Bud

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Bud, it's some of both. I was trying to say that with many tracks, you won't be able to tell as easily that some are computer-generated, or lesser audio quality, or MIDI instead of audio. And yes, if you do a Phil Spector, all bets are off!


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Originally Posted By: Janice & Bud
Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
...
- when you mix tracks, it becomes harder to tell what's in the mix...


Hey Matt, interesting thread here but I'm not sure what you mean by the above. Do you mean the more tracks the more difficult it becomes to differentiate them? Or that a mix inherently makes it difficult to hear individual tracks? From my mixing perspective a good mix allows each track to have it's place on the soundstage. The exceptions for me are intentionally dense "wall of sound" mixes.

Bud


Yes... that can be correct. Generally, this is because of one thing. You have too many tracks in the mix. The more tracks you have the muddier the mix becomes. Add to that, many folks don't understand the proper use of high passing and have instruments intruding on each others sonic space. One mistake many recording enthusiasts make is that since they have dozens of tracks available in a DAW, they feel they must use them all.

WRONG!

Most of the pop songs and country songs on the radio have many dozens of tracks.... I even heard that some of the singers have over a hundred tracks just for vocals.... Obviously, you don't want to use them all.

The proper use of panning, and automation of the volume allows tracks to set in the mix in different sonic space, the use of EQ can separate two guitars from each other, and the use of volume automation allows instruments to come in when they are needed and go out when they are not.

By using EQ, panning, and volume control, it's possible to get the mix crystal clean so that every instrument in the mix is clearly heard, distinct from everything else.

Another part of this is NOT to use anything other than what is required. Less is More. A good vocal can carry a song with nothing other than a bass and drum, or perhaps simply a piano or acoustic guitar.

Black Velvet is a good example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tT4d1LQy4es listen to the B3 and the guitar. Notice they come in and go out, quite dramatically in places. The only things constant are the bass and drums.

Also, keep in mind the actual instrumental line up of the band you are using. I start thinking that I have a basic 5 piece band and maybe a side man or two. Bass, drums, 2 guitars & keys. (5 people) If I have dobro or fiddle or steel.... the rule is... only 5 can play at a time with some exceptions. At no time would I want 4 guitars playing. It's not the band I have and it muddies the mix.

Bud mentioned having a "wall of sound".... normally, or, from my perspective, a wall of guitars.... But this isn't generally achieved through the use of multiple (4 or more different) guitars.... it's the proper layering of one or two guitars at most. If you've ever been at a jam with 3 or more guitarists playing at the same time, that's confusion, not layering.

To learn how to mix properly, start with a bass & drum mix, then add ONE thing at a time. The object, is to make it sound good and NOT need to add anything else to that mix. Most folks start with a mix that has many tracks in it and try to make them all fit. The first thing I do is import 8 to 10 tracks that I think I want in the mix....and I mute them ALL except the bass and the drums and start adding just like I told you above. I stop adding when I have a good sounding mix regardless of how many tracks are unused.

Once you get past the idea that the 5 guitars and 3 pianos you have are indispensable to the mix, you will start to see clarity in your mixes.

Last edited by Guitarhacker; 10/13/16 02:48 AM.

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"Don't expect the sound you hear from a Nashville recording, mixing, mastering studio. BIAB does not mix or master your tracks to sound like a radio hit song."

"I was trying to say that with many tracks, you won't be able to tell as easily that some are computer-generated, or lesser audio quality, or MIDI instead of audio."

------

But it makes one wonder with the quality of musicianship and clarity of the recording of BIAB Realtracks, midi through a high quality synth that if BIAB stems were used in a top Nashville, LA or NYC studio, with a top name producer, over vocals by top celebrities -- Mixed and mastered by the best.

Say - Bill Szymczyk and the Eagles using BIAB instrument tracks; on an original song so there would not be a comparison between this song and a previously recorded one. Would there really be a noticeable difference in the quality of the total track?

Not in style - but in Quality?


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Bill Szymczyk doesn't just control the mix. He controls the recording, mics and preamps, and the space the recording is made in.

Real Tracks are great, but you don't have anywhere near as much control as a pro engineer in a great room with a U87 through an API on Don Henley's voice. grin


Regards,

Bob

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Originally Posted By: 90 dB
Bill Szymczyk doesn't just control the mix. He controls the recording, mics and preamps, and the space the recording is made in.

Real Tracks are great, but you don't have anywhere near as much control as a pro engineer in a great room with a U87 through an API on Don Henley's voice. grin


Regards,

Bob


That's what my intent was to say Bob. Take raw RealTracks, put them in the best studio, with the best engineers, equipment, processing, pro vocalists, etc. and I believe the end result would be 'radio ready'. I read articles about recording sessions and many times less than stellar tracks make it into major recordings. The instrumentalists and recording quality of BIAB RealTracks on average exceed what can be accomplished by many users of BIAB. So, if I were to take one of my original songs to Nashville, go to a great studio,hire session musicians and pay for a recording session mix - I do not think Brent Mason would be there. I'm sure a very, very good no name would be but even then, I don't think the session musicians would be playing their -A- game licks like they would bring to a session for Luke Bryan, Darius Rucker, Carrie Underwood.

I think I would get a very high quality, generic backing track and even if Bill S. were in the building, I would have a 'rising star' apprentice at the controls.

It that would be the case, I think BIAB tracks would stack up very well against what most unknown, self financed, trying to make it big in Nashville artists would get.


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Originally Posted By: Hugh2

I don't play any instrument and so its difficult for me to gauge...


Perhaps, but you would still know what sounds good. You might not notice things like tongues/slurs, amberature, etc. that you would notice immediately if you played the instrument, but that doesn't seem to matter to most people.

I have not noticed PGMusic releasing any bad sounding audio. Perhaps to me the players weren't exactly up to par on certain things, but the technical recording of the takes was good.


Originally Posted By: Hugh2

...is the realtrack up to the quality


I have both OmniPak and Audiophile versions. In the Audiophile versions, yes, to me they are up to par. But don't be dismayed. You can still easily take the lower quality files, mix a few together with effects, panning, etc. as discussed and create masters that sound like they came from a professional studio. Again, it's your ears that make or break you.


Originally Posted By: Hugh2

...if im happy with the outcome of how the realtrack plays is the quality up to professional recording standard?


If you're 100% happy, go with it. Procrastination never helped anybody I knew. The best way to get better is to make a few mistakes along the way.


Originally Posted By: Hugh2

...(even if its turns out a good bit different) way way better


I find this to be true. Sometimes (when trying to get a style to fit) there is "no-way" I'm going to find a style that fits in BIAB, but then after a while I get side-tracked, which I find could be a good thing.

What I haven't done is remembered what it was supposed to sound like... so I can't be sure of this, but a lot of what I do because of BIAB's limited styles (that apply specifically to the song at hand) DOES give me a very good product that I can be proud of.


A quick note on professional recordings... they are meant (or should be) to be as dry as possible, but still sound good for somebody who wants to use them with no effects whatsoever.

I believe PGMusic does a great job, but I don't believe the musicians are the world's best -- perhaps the world's better know musicians, but certainly not the best.

But, compared to most they're super-great in their own genre.

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“It that would be the case, I think BIAB tracks would stack up very well against what most unknown, self financed, trying to make it big in Nashville artists would get.”


You may be right, but I haven't heard any BIAB productions that compare to top demo studios in LA or Nashville. Live players in a live room.

I believe that it's more a matter of dynamics, arrangement and signature lines than audio quality, but all things considered, it's a different level of quality. YMMV.



http://www.beairdmusicgroup.com/male-vocalist-samples/


http://www.nashvilledemoworks.com/nashville-demo-works-services/


http://www.nashvilletraxrecordingstudio.com/testimonials-samples






Regards,

Bob

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"Twisting in my chair as I type this"; BIAB give me some very good fixer-upper tracks. "ducking under desk". The tracks are very easily and quickly edited to be fixed up. One of the most frustrating things about them are the re-strike of every instrument at each new chord. Sometimes I'd like the bass, synth or strings, for example, to hold through a few guitar and piano chord changes. Only way I know how to do this is create a chord window with the chord changes, save it, convert the guitar and piano to audio, import it to the audio track. Then re-create that same chord window with piano and guitar muted and held chords where I want them for bass, synth, string. Then I import both chord grids or portions of them into RealBand and go from there.
That said about fixer-upper tracks, I started out years ago simply wanting basic drums and bass backing tracks and used to be quite happy with the VSC3 as my main sounds for some 60+ songs I was performing. But, I ended up using 3 - 5 instruments on almost every backing track. So, I was getting much more than I initially expected. Over the years, as I've become a better musician and better at making tracks my standard have gone up.
I'm in no way say I don't like BIAB or RealTRacks. I enjoy these programs immensely and lately spend 20 or more hours per week using them.


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Originally Posted By: Tobias
...... The tracks are very easily and quickly edited to be fixed up. One of the most frustrating things about them are the re-strike of every instrument at each new chord. Sometimes I'd like the bass, synth or strings, for example, to hold through a few guitar and piano chord changes. Only way I know how to do this is create a chord window with the chord changes, save it, convert the guitar and piano to audio, import it to the audio track. Then re-create that same chord window with piano and guitar muted and held chords where I want them for bass, synth, string. Then I import both chord grids or portions of them into RealBand and go from there.


I was thinking that you could do holds already in BB by simply typing the command into the bar.

A. is a rest on the A chord
A.. is an A chord shot
A... is an A chord hold

You can also do this

A.bd rest on all instruments except bass and drums

A...p held A chord for all instruments except the piano

A...bp held A chord for all instruments except the piano and the bass


Use these commands and avoid all that running around. I'm not sure how they work across multiple bars.... but give it a try and see how it works.

Last edited by Guitarhacker; 10/13/16 02:30 PM.

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Hi Guitarhacker,
I checked out your website really great and I cant tell the difference between whats RT or not to be honest.
The other thing I noticed when listening to some of the tracks is that the vocals are still the centre of attention so your ears are only 50% focused on the music.
Yes its almost like a sport you have to practice .
Thanks for the advice Hugh

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It all seemed so easy (and fun) when I didn't know how little I knew. Now, I'm afraid to start... and it's going to be expensive - I suspect. Seriously, some great posts. Herb, Charlie and the rest, some super helpful tips. I guess it's time to step into the recording black hole rather than the backing tracks school yard that I frequent.


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Hi Audiophile
Thanks for the reply.
I think I have a good sense of what sounds good so thats a help.
I would get dismayed with the technical side of things but I attack it from another point of view.My main emphasis is :is the music catchy? because I always liked catchy music.For other people the emphasis could be on other qualities.
I find that if the composition is catchy the more work I do with Biab the better and more catchy it gets.
I find certain parts of the production enjoyable though if not time consuming and sometimes I do end up leaving it and coming back a few weeks later or I check in with it now and then and have another go!
Lol
Yours Hugh

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Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
Originally Posted By: Tobias
...... The tracks are very easily and quickly edited to be fixed up. One of the most frustrating things about them are the re-strike of every instrument at each new chord. Sometimes I'd like the bass, synth or strings, for example, to hold through a few guitar and piano chord changes. Only way I know how to do this is create a chord window with the chord changes, save it, convert the guitar and piano to audio, import it to the audio track. Then re-create that same chord window with piano and guitar muted and held chords where I want them for bass, synth, string. Then I import both chord grids or portions of them into RealBand and go from there.


I was thinking that you could do holds already in BB by simply typing the command into the bar.

A. is a rest on the A chord
A.. is an A chord shot
A... is an A chord hold

You can also do this

A.bd rest on all instruments except bass and drums

A...p held A chord for all instruments except the piano

A...bp held A chord for all instruments except the piano and the bass


Use these commands and avoid all that running around. I'm not sure how they work across multiple bars.... but give it a try and see how it works.


Yes, I use those very rests, holds, shots, pushes, etc... all the time. What I did not explain well enough is this; Sometimes I'd like the bass, synth or strings, for example, to hold, say, a B chord from bar 1 beat 1 to end of bar 2 beat 4 but have the guitar and piano play a B chord on bar 1 beats 1,2,3,4 and an E chord on bar 2 while the strings or synth continue hold the B without striking a new chord at the beginning of bar 2. I might not want to here the bass strike a B note at beginning of bar 2 as the other instruments change chords. Just hold the B from bar 1 all the way to the end of bar 2 (or whenever it might naturally fall off) while guitar and piano change chords. All in the same chord sheet window. This is one of the characteristics that make BIAB sound like BIAB. Once you put in a new chord for one instrument it cancels the previous chord for all instruments.
Do you know a way to stop it from doing that? Or a way to create my desired behavior in a single BIAB chord sheet?

Last edited by Tobias; 10/13/16 05:06 PM.

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Band-in-a-Box® 2024 German for Windows is Here!

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 für Windows Deutsch ist verfügbar!

Wir waren fleißig und haben über 50 neue Funktionen und eine erstaunliche Sammlung neuer Inhalte hinzugefügt, darunter 222 RealTracks, neue RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, "Songs with Vocals" Artist Performance Sets, abspielbare RealTracks Set 3, abspielbare RealDrums Set 2, zwei neue Sets von "RealDrums Stems", XPro Styles PAK 6, Xtra Styles PAK 17 und mehr!

Paket | Was ist Neu

Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!

Add updated printing options, enhanced tracks settings, smoother use of MGU and SGU (BB files) within PowerTracks, and more with the latest PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 update!

Learn more about this free update for PowerTracks Pro Audio & download it at www.pgmusic.com/support_windows_pt.htm#2024_5

The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!

The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!

Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.

This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245

The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option

Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!

Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!

For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.

Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.

Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!

Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.

Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.

Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!

Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!

With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!

Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!

If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.

A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."

"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."

"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."

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