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Nice demo Peter. The solos have come a long way since you introduced the RTs. I'm a live player and prefer to play the solos myself though  (If I didn't have to respect the other players in the band, I'd be a solo hog and do them all.) And yes, I see room for RTs and MIDI, depending on what you are doing with them. For my personal applications, MIDI is better, because I can edit them. Listening to the rhythm section of your excellent demo, there are things I would change for my own personal tastes. And I mean my own personal tastes, which of course are mine and mine alone (for better or worse). But then, I bought BiaB and my MIDI sequencers to play with, not for plug and play. Again, that's just me. Also, I play in a duo for a living. There are other duos in our area who use karaoke tracks they purchase on the 'net. Nothing wrong with that either. However, IMHO having real instruments in the backing track sounds like karaoke. Something about the timbre, the mix, and the blending of the instruments sound like a recording instead of a live performance. Judging from the comments our audience members, many audience members know the difference too, because they tell me comments like, " Band X is only doing karaoke". The word only is the killer to my ears. On the other hand, if I were doing song-writing demos to send to record companies, I'd probably use mostly Real Tracks, because I know the A&R people are definitely prejudiced against MIDI demos. Different tools taken out of the tool box for different applications. I'm definitely not dissing the RTs, they have their use, and I'm happy that we have both tools at our disposal. I just get a little irritated when someone thinks MIDI sounds bad. As most of us know, MIDI has no sound, synthesizers have sounds. The difference between the sound card on your computer and a Kurzweil is like the difference between a kazoo and a trumpet. The MIDI sounds on the demo I posted sound 'almost live' to me. The have more separation than the RT background so they don't have that 'karaoke' blend for live performances (which I feel makes them more appropriate for an on-stage performance), and I was able to edit the BiaB output: - I entered the top sax note and let BiaB's excellent harmonizer do the 'mule work' of harmonizing the part -- then I exported the MIDI to a sequencer for further editing
- Edited the bass line at the end of each progression, because it plays notes on both an upbeat and the following beat, something native BiaB cannot do without an expanded style
- Manually entered (played) the walking bass line for the places where I wanted to play a guitar solo. This changes the feel over teh solo part and IMHO adds both interest to the song and drive to the solo section.
- Added a touch of humanizing (randomization) to the harmonized sax parts because BiaB puts the harmony notes on exactly the same beat. I don't think the audienc would know the difference if I didn't, but I know the difference and I play this tune every couple of weeks on the gig.
This is minimal editing, but it couldn't be done with RTs. Other backing tracks I make have extensive editing: song specific licks, changing the instrument patches, adding a crescendo, diminuendo, accelerando, ritardando, and/or fermata, getting all the instruments to play a kick instead of a shot or hold, and so on. But as I said before, I bought BiaB and my MIDI sequencers to play with the music. Back in the 80s when I first started sequencing, my MIDI sequences were pretty crude. Since then it's been an adventure and a learning experience. As I learn new ways to manipulate the MIDI data and hear something new or exciting, I get great satisfaction and a feeling of "Hey! I did that!" pride. To me that's what making music is all about. Of course, not everybody plays with the music the same way. Playing with the MIDI data and getting different instruments to express themselves like the analog equivalent has opened my ears to how each instrument expresses itself. The subtle nuances that make sax express itself different from a trumpet or guitar. This in turn has increased my enjoyment of listening to music. I can listen to an old LP or CD that I've heard a million times and hear something new. So while there is nothing wrong with the RealTracks, there is also nothing wrong with MIDI tracks either. MIDI doesn't sound good or bad, but different MIDI synthesizers sound good or bad. And many synths have both good and bad voices built in. The synthesized pianos, organs, drums, and other instruments that superstars use on their records and in their live shows are virtually all MIDI based instruments. These people have roadies and can use anything they want. If the Hammond XK-3c synth didn't sound as good as a B3, they wouldn't use it. The different tools in your toolbox are for different applications. You can use the big crescent wrench to hammer a nail, but a real hammer will work better. For the newbies, repeat after me, neither MIDI nor GeneralMIDI sounds bad. The sounds are in the synthesizers. Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Approaching this logically as a NEW USER, I check out the demos and videos.
I don't understand midi.
For a while the VSC Dxi was not too bad. It worked and what came in the box worked with it.
Now as a new user I want to buy stuff but then I need an external module now because 64 bit over the counter soft synths are not available for a reasonable price.
Then I need good headphones but wait I got them and guys say you can't mix with them so I get a wee mixer and near field montiors and a sound card/input device and NOW:
Total Cost ...2 grand. Or more. But you get the photo.
If the system is sold as a Realtracks solution the customer does not have to become a midiot to make things work.
It would be great if everyone had to take a mid level hardware course.
Learn Midi in 100 simple lessons.
Learn BIAB by reading and understanding the whole manual.
AND make backing tracks for the Greatful Dead and Alice Cooper world tour Kiss Reunion using nothing but a netbook and Logitec speakers in grandma's spare room on a Sunday Morning.
Somehow the above has not quite happened, however I understand the Monkeys are still typing out the bible in Kurdish.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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PG Music Staff
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))) This is minimal editing, but it couldn't be done with RT All kinds of editing is possible for RealTracks, including inserting song specific licks to replace the original ones. There is a video tip here showing you how here. http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=316518&an=0&page=0#Post316518If you read the thread, you will see other users responding with good success in editing projects to add song specific licks etc., using different techniques. Or listen to the over 500 user compositions in the User Showcase, most of the compositions use RealTracks, and many use RealTracks that have been edited.
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.
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Wow , PG's Real Tracks wins hands down for sound ! Thanks for the comparison Peter ! 
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I can see both sides of this issue. I use both midi and RTs in my cover songs. For original work i use mostly RTs, and live played tracks.
Back to covers which is what bob is talking about. I use a combo because i want the best of both worlds. Here is my method:
1. I start with a midi Kar song from the net, and pop it in RB.
2. I assign Rolands TTS synth top all the tracks, and play it through all the way checking for track sounds, and chord changes, lyric and chord symbols accuracy.
3. Open up Sampletank, and jamstix in the synth rack, and begin to audition the tracks one at a time for better sounds. I look for more reaslistic synth sounds for all the instruments. Piano, Guitars, Bass and drums. I usually allow TTS to handle things like strings, and such that are mixed in the back ground, unless it does not sound right.
4. I try Sampletank, Cakewalk studio instruments, TTS, and Jamstix for drum sounds, if I want to stay with the original drum track that is similar to the original song.
5. I audition RTs and Rds for replacements where i am unsatisfied with the midi results. Sometimes i want a specific sound or just to somewhat kill the midiness of the track. No matter what you do, some instruments never sound right as midi.
6. I mix the panning, volume, and such to taste and save.
I understand Bob's idea, especially since he is playing live over it, mostly as a duo. As a Solo player it is just me. as a Duo, you want the backing tracks as simple and clean as possible, you are the show. You solo, or your partner does. As a solo player, I might solo on occasion, but not every song, as it all starts to sound the same after a while.
Also there is the decision, do I want this to sound as close to "the original" as possible, or do i want to do a "version" of the song. To do knock off covers you need to stay very original, and that is midi turf. To do version, you want a fresh take on the song, and RTs really lend a hand here.
Recently i have been playing around with some old western swing type songs, and older traditional country tunes from the 40s 50s and 60s. I love that old sound, but love even more to modrenize them a tad, and that is where RTs really shine. A midi file with solid samples, and a couple well placed RTs can just come alive.
Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2022, Realband, Harrison Mixbus 32c version 9.1324, Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
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When I used Biab 2004 version ,I never needed an update to make more midi . Just hours on end editing ,now that there's RT's I could care less about midi editing and trying to make it sound real. To me it's like the difference between the wheel and a car , wheel good > car better it's just progress . Do I still use midi ? Only if there is no RT even remotely the same ,even then I would rather cut and paste a RT than to settle for midi sounds.
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Basically in the world I live in, if I showed up at a writer's night with a BIAB or karaoke backing track I would probably be laughed or boo'd off the stage. It is "live" or nothing -- mostly just a guitar (or maybe another guitar/bass) and vocals. So my use of BIAB is 100% for recording original songs.
To be 100% truthful, if I was good at midi and musical notation and composing (and had good sound modules), I would probably use midi a lot more. You know I do have a PC88Mx which has lots of good sounds. Maybe I should try using that more often.
I have nothing against those that do the backing track gigs, it is just not for me.
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I hear you kevin, but most gigs are not writers nights. They are folks eating dinner having a few drinks and listening to some old tunes they like. So backing tracks can give that feel. I have sat and listened to many different venues, and some folks can sit and entertain all night long with just a guitar and a mike, but after a while that gets somewhat old. Not to mention limiting since there are many genre's of music you can't do justice to that way. I have done several open mike nights, and i have to say half the folks there could use a good backing track.
There is room for all kinds of music.
Having listened to both Notes' midi file and the PG RT demo, i gotta say the demo fro RTs rocks big time, the other sound rather mechanical, and cheap. Now i know what Bob will say, it is my cheap mechanical synth in my desk top. he is right on, and first rate sound module would make that come alive to a degree, but it would still at best sound mechanical, and un real. If you use top flight synths, and a couple really good players over it, you can give a spirited song, but having Brent Mason, and John Varvis jam with me is totally hot!
having said that you can over do that as well. moderation is required in any thing. I have RT solo for me, and i solo for myself at times. I reworked the old coutry standard "From a Jack to a King" the other night and had John nad Brent sit in for the session. Wow what a dynamic tune.
Last edited by Robh; 12/20/11 10:48 AM.
Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2022, Realband, Harrison Mixbus 32c version 9.1324, Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
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Quote:
Robh: I hear you kevin, but most gigs are not writers nights. They are folks eating dinner having a few drinks and listening to some old tunes they like. So backing tracks can give that feel. ...
I agree and it is hard to talk about backing track gigs without hurting folks' feelings. But bottom line -- if I could sing really well and I was a performer and there was a place that would pay me to perform standards, I would gladly go the backing track route. Better pay and I am sure that kind of performance is still rewarding to the player(s). I am not an anti-backing tracks kind of guy, I just know that with the kind of music I play and the venues involved, it won't work.
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LOL, i getcha Kevin, but one other issue i always think about. If one does not sing very well, and they go out and sing badly with nothing to cover them but a guitar, that is kinda scary.
At least with backing tracks you can layer vocals, and stuff and hide a bit of the mistakes.
Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2022, Realband, Harrison Mixbus 32c version 9.1324, Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
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One other point. When I hear a track that is 100% RT's with just vocals on top, I am also left a little flat. I think you have to mix in some "really Real" stuff to give it that human flavor. ... On a side note, with the 2011 version I never found a brent mason solo that I was interested in adding to any of my songs. Now that I have the 11.5 and the 12 RT's maybe I will give him another shot. Of course, I do play guitar so I generally don't lean towards adding RT guitar solos.
Kevin
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Hi, does anyone use Kontakt at all?
Bob..
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Quote:
))) This is minimal editing, but it couldn't be done with RT
All kinds of editing is possible for RealTracks, including inserting song specific licks to replace the original ones.
There is a video tip here showing you how here.
<...>
And it says "RealTracks are audio, so that they aren't editable on a note-by-note basis. But you can use MIDI for this, by deleting the RealTracks section, and replacing it with the exact pattern or riff that you want (entered by you as MIDI notes on a MIDI Track)"
And that's my point. Different tools for different jobs. If I take a recorded guitar part from RTs and decide I want to change a few notes, I could use MIDI, but the tone wouldn't be the same. To match the tone I'd need an identical guitar, FX pedals, amp, mic, and recording studio equipment.
Peter, I'm not dissing the RTs. I think what you have done with them is simply amazing. I am disagreeing with the title of this thread "Unhappy with MIDI sounds" though.
RT's have pros and cons and so does MIDI. To me the great thing about MIDI is the ability to edit the MIDI parts to get them more to my liking and to my own personal artistic expression (which of course is subjective).
Saying that RTs sound good and MIDI sounds bad is like me saying Stan Getz has good tone and John Coltrane has bad tone. There are millions of sax players that would agree, and millions of others who would prefer 'Trane's tone. So I avoid the argument by saying I prefer Getz's tone over 'Trane's tone and everybody is happy.
I play live with backing tracks that I create myself. I'd rather play in a big band, but economics don't allow that anymore, the music market has changed since I started gigging. I make my own backing tracks, some times with the help of BiaB and some times from scratch. I could buy karaoke tracks, it would be easier but (a) it wouldn't be me and (2) it would sound like karaoke tracks.
One of the things I like about MIDI is that for a live performance, it sounds less like karaoke. There seems to be more separation or less blending of the instruments. Plus with the ability to edit any note of any track I can refine the MIDI output to sound just like I want it to sound. I can take a very good BiaB idea and put my own personal stamp on it.
Now I agree that not everybody uses BiaB in the same manner, and I doubt that many use all the features of BiaB. I know I don't. But I love the features that I use and wouldn't want to give them up for anything. The other features are for other musicians with different ways of working with music, different requirements, and different personal taste. And that's a good thing.
While I have no use for the Real Tracks, I think they are fantastic and it's a good thing they are in the program. I don't make notation charts with BiaB either, I have an old copy of Encore that gives me a more customizable output, but then, for those who only need the notation options BiaB offers, it's a great feature. I don't use the melodist or soloist, as I like to do those myself. These are all features that are for other musicians and I would not be correct in saying they are inferior or worthless.
So when someone says the excellent features in BiaB that I love are inferior or worthless, I feel it's time for a debate (not an argument).
I love MIDI and I love the MIDI features of BiaB. I do not think they are inferior to RTs, just different, and for the way I work with music, they are the better choice - but that is me and the way I work with music YMMV. In other words for me the MIDI functions are superior to the Real Tracks for others it will be different.
So I hope you continue to develop the core MIDI functions as you have done for decades as well as the other features of the program. Even those features that I don't use.
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Quote:
Hi, does anyone use Kontakt at all?
Bob..
I have it but haven't used it with BIAA yet. I tried a couple of other soft synths like the Korg M1 and it through everything for a loop because it's using more than one channel and you need to know what its using and how to set it up and it was just way to much for right now. Have used the Soft dx7 with no problem so I know it works but I'm not sure about Kontack. Oh have been using Alcemy from Computer Music to load non Knontact samples and that has worked fine.
Just loaded Kontack. No luck so far. It loads but I get no sound. Tried loading on guitar track and thru track and nothing on either track. I'm sure it has to do with somehow setting the channels which I don't know how to do. I'm sure someone here will figure it out in the next few days and if not we'll have to call support and be embarrassed with how easy it is to fix.
Dell 610 dual Monitor, win 7-10, Sonar Plat, ProTools 10 & 11, Reaper 4, BIAB/real Band 2022, Easy Drummer, Superior Drummer, Kontact Essentials, Personnel Orchestra, Korg Legacy Analog & Digital
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It's the BRASS that sounds awful to my ears played through the on - board sound card. I use ASIO drivers, not sure what I should have set up on BIAB 2012, but I have selected Coyote Forte, what is the idiot proof way to get the brass sounding realistic please?
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Brass is in big demand but no pay.
I'm up to 3 bands and 2 more asking and 1 doing anything they can to recruit me.
There are 3 on Wed. night so only 1 flies.
I hear choirs have Tues locked up here.
I got my 1 wish. 1 of the bands is doing repetoire. I get tired of working so hard to play some crazy thing and then it's once and done.
I would though, as a baritone player, like 1 band where there are NO TROMBONES behind me. LOL. Either that or I join them. Their bells are so big they can't see when to stop, and then they goof around. And I'm stuck with the French Horn chicks who have F'n horns so in the wrong key.
I have my hopes pinned on Brass real tracks with stabs and fills, and hope they are going to make my String of Pearls seem like they came from Tiffany's not Woolworths.!
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Quote:
Hi, does anyone use Kontakt at all?
Bob..
I use Kontakt Player sometimes, but honestly I find it's a pain in the patootie. Much easier and more straightforward to deal with Sampletank, Rhino, Tyrell6, Alchemy... anything, really.
Best, Tom SmithWin10/64 • i7-8700K • 24 GB RAM BIAB 2024 • Reaper 7 • Izotope MPS AKG C1000S • IK iRig I/O Pro
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With regard to modules, I've been through a few over the years. I've just replaced the Ketron SD2 with a Roland Sonic Cell. The Ketron was a good module and I like the Sonic Cell even better. Unfortunately, it has been discontinued but you can still find them used. I use an EWI with it and use all custom patches for that channel but use the factory patches for BIAB.
I like having the real tracks in addition to midi. As many have mentioned, there's a place for both. But I still use midi quite a bit. The modules have definitely improved since I started using version 6 of BIAB.
Jeff H.
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I love my Ketron; but if if the Roland Sonic Cell has been discontinued, is there a new version to replace it?
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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Not exactly replace, it's the SD-50. Good sounds without the SC's extra stuff like a mic input, amp modelling for your guitar and a few other things. I have an SC and I like the sounds too and I've heard a lot of Ketron demos and it sounds good as well but my new Kurzweil PC3 blows both of them away.
The point of this thread is midi is whatever you use with it. This is not for you John, it's for some in this thread who don't have a clue what midi is.
Biab, Real Band, Sonar and all the other music programs have no midi sounds of their own. Repeat, NO MIDI SOUNDS OF THEIR OWN. Good midi sounds is simply a matter of money, that's it. Don't think that great studio quality sounds are going to come from a .99c chip that's put onto your motherboard in China. $40 up to $400 for the Ketron or used Sonic Cell or other module on up to the sky's the limit like my PC3 ($1,999 on sale now), the Yamaha Tyros 4, or to really blow you away the brand new Korg Kronos. Only $4,000 for the last two. Plug in those to your PC and hit play on Biab and see what happens. No more complaints about crappy midi sounds.
The big name soft synths are also pretty good but require some knowledge to get set up properly and even though I have a lot of them, I've gravitated back to hardware. Other experienced users have talked about how they've come to that same conclusion too. Unless you're really just short of cash, don't waste time, this is a worthwhile hobby that is worth some minimal investment. Try out the free demo of the Forte Dxi but then just spend the $400 for a good hardware module and go from there. It will save you about a year of breaking your head about finding quality midi sounds for cheap or free. I don't have time for that crap.
Biab is a starting point, a tool with a lot of good stuff included but after you've worked your way through that and want more, time to do some research, go to midi school and open up the old wallet.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Band-in-a-Box® 2024 German for Windows is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 für Windows Deutsch ist verfügbar!
Wir waren fleißig und haben über 50 neue Funktionen und eine erstaunliche Sammlung neuer Inhalte hinzugefügt, darunter 222 RealTracks, neue RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, "Songs with Vocals" Artist Performance Sets, abspielbare RealTracks Set 3, abspielbare RealDrums Set 2, zwei neue Sets von "RealDrums Stems", XPro Styles PAK 6, Xtra Styles PAK 17 und mehr!
Paket | Was ist Neu
Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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