PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Another "What's your opinion" question

"I have not payed attention to the VU meters on RB, but if I recall from just seeing (rather than actaully watching them) when speaking into the mic in an idle state they do nothing."

This is a problem. First of all, the meters inside the software are there to help you set the gain staging at the very last stage in the signal chain.

Something is wrong about the input level setting as recorded. Even at speaking levels, you should see the meters move, perhaps 10 dB lower than your singing voice, and your expected signal 'height' is right on the money, but what you are getting is too small.

I can't help any more on this since I don't have RB.

So, there are typically several places to set the gain, and you appear to only be adjusting the A/D gain at the interface.

1. Some microphones, particularly condensers, have a pad switch built in.
2. The potentiometer on your audio interface has both a -20 dB Pad switch, as well as lots of gain adjust before the conversion to digital.
3. Sometimes the interface itself has a mixer applet - this will function to allow you to set various input levels relative to the digital output of the mixer. Both my PreSonus Firebox and my Tascam US-800 have their own applets for this.
4. Windows sometimes has a similar function to #3 - you say that this is 'gray' for your current setup.
5. The DAW software will often have a similar gain function on the 'inputs' that it sees for audio recording. Most of the time there will be a metering function with this GUI as well. In Tracktion, a picture of what this looks like is on page 20: http://www.mackie.com/products/tracktion3/pdf/t3_qs.pdf

Note that there is an 'input gain' setting there. In this software it defaults to zero, which it should, but if somehow this got set to -20 dB or something, then the end result would be just like your diagram where the expected signal is large, but the recorded signal is weak. I cannot for the life of me remember if PG products have a similar input level control - I'm guessing that they do. Take a look at the tip on that page, BTW, use peaks at -5 dB or so for good tradeoff between audio quality and s/n ratio.

Also note that the input level gain slider has nothing to do with the output volume slider on a particular track.

No the slider has no bearing in record.
Everything goes through K Mixer unless ASIO is used.I don't have a USB device.There are plenty of users here though with your device and can verify one way or the other for you.

I don't think that should be grayed out. BTW did you know that you CAN NOT install more then one MAudio USB device on your computer. It will cause issues per MAudio Web Site.
Do I dare suggest you uninstall and reinstall the FTP? Do it by the book, theirs not yours.

M-Audio software mixewrs can be complex sometimes. The 'Input' volume may be affected by another slider in the main mixer that actually sends the output for that channel (to whatever port its assigned to) at a reduced level. That's one possibility; to be clear two sliders in the main M-Audio software mixer may be affecting the actual input signal path.
Check both input and output meters of mixer (may take a little clicking around depending on settings in this applet). Look for a second meter sensing the input signal..

Another good possibility is Mac's post (as usual); device may simply be set to be handling the wrong signal level.

And on we go..... in no particular order, this is what all went on tonight.

First, logic. This has all given me a headache and I don't remember who said what, so whatever.... I am done playing with it for tonight.

The "windows mixer" is irrelevant, and here's why I say that. In order for my logic to matter, you must concede this given. Disabling the internal sound card is the same as removing a PCI sound card, and either of those things equals having NO sound card. Your choices can be no sound card, onboard sound card (on mobo), internal sound card (PCI slot), or external sound card (M-Audio). As long as you have one of those last 3, you will get sound. They don't work together. They work independently of each other. Thus the "windows mixer" suggestion is irrelevant. Once you select a default sound device, and remember default means "use this until I tell you different", that is the one in control. When my M-Audio is selected as default, the Realtek doesn't matter, thus the companion "windows mixer" is no longer relevant. My "windows mixer" is the DAW I am using to feed the sound through the USB bus. My default sound device is and has always been the M-Audio. And before the "update drivers" starts flying again, they are the latest, and drivers only need to be updated if something breaks, not "because you can". Those drivers have been fine since they came out in 2010. If the drivers were bad, the M-Audio wouldn't work at all given that a driver is nothing more than a way for the hardware to communicate with an operating system. If they worked yesterday, they will work today. Driver updates fix bugs, not make the already good be 'mo bettah.

To expound on that, I went into BIOS and disabled the onboard Realtek sound. That made absolutely no difference, as I was sure it would not. What was grayed out before with that Realtek enabled was still grayed out. I knew this would be true because the first computer I used for this had an older mobo with no onboard sound and there was no sound card in a slot, yet I used Sonar and all was well.

On to the next steps. Reboot. As the computer was rebooting, otherwise stated "there was not yet an operating system booted and running", I spoke into the mic and it came out of my monitors. While sitting at the Windows login screen, otherwise stated "no drivers had loaded for anything yet", I spoke into the mic and it came out of my monitors. I entered my credentials, Windows started. When it was ready for input, but no programs yet running and with the internal sound card disabled, I spoke into the mic and it came out of my monitors. Remember, the onboard Realtek is disabled right now.

Started RB. Loaded an existing song. Went down to a track far removed from the others and selected Audio - Mono. Clicked on the VU meter button to bring the up on the screen. Clicked RECORD. Sang 12 bars. The input on the VU meter was stable at -6db, occasionally hitting -3, but never in the red. Stopped the recording. Solo-ed that track. The playback was -18db. Barely audible. Interesting to note is that on the screen, the data in the track was from floor to ceiling. Full height track. Yet so quiet I could barely hear it. No effects at all, just a raw track. Recorded at -6, it played back at -18. Instruments recorded at the same level play back at the level they are recorded.

I repeated the process using RECORD AUDIO instead of RECORD. The results were exactly the same. (Why are there 2 records anyway?)

I tested with both MME and ASIO drivers and the results were exactly the same.

Where did those 12 dbs go from the record to the playback?

And Scott, this is an SM58, no switches, no nothing. It will always be an SM58. Note, an SM58 that drives the incoming DB meter just fine. The inst/line switch is as it should be. (To be thorough I tested it in, out, pad on, pad off.... results did not change.) Something is lost in translation inside of RB from the record to the playback. I call the fact that the track data as shown on the screen fills the track yet the playback being so quiet proof that the hardware is fine. Also, instruments record and play back fine. This has to be software.

Booted Sonar. Using the VU meter in the Sonar track window, I recorded the same 12 bar vocal passage and it played back at the level it was recorded. Again remember there is no sound device enabled other than the M-Audio interface. Just throwing that in again so everybody knows. The internal sound card and associated software are not relevant or necessary.

I HATE having to work at home harder than I work at work.

"(To be thorough I tested it in, out, pad on, pad off.... results did not change.)"

Well, then this should give you a clue as to some of the weirdness. The results SHOULD change. You are recording something other than the mic channel most likely, because the pad switch on the front panel of the M-Audio absolutely should cause a change in the input level that is being digitized. By 20 dB.

The sound passing through the device at all times is the hardware monitoring feature, has nothing to do with the digitized signal. You probably want to disable any direct monitoring to debug what's going on.

I can hardware monitor with my external card even when the computer is off. For this issue, you don't want to mess with that. Knob 9 in the manual, dial it all the way right to PB.

Until you do that, it's going to be very hard to debug what is going on.

-Scott

Good luck!

Read:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/ff536484(v=vs.85).aspx
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/ff537039(v=vs.85).aspx
http://www.usbdacs.com/Windows/Windows.html

I don't totally understand all of this. You may or may not but KMixer is surely involved with USB Audio Devices.

Until you kill the hardware monitoring, I can't help any further. Rotate the knob fully to PB, eliminated all connections except: 1. SM58 directly into the XLR connector on the front, 2. Headphone out. 3. USB connection to the computer.

Until that's as simple as the connections are, I'm out of the running to be able to help any further. With more connections and so forth, and direct monitoring going on at least part of the time, it's too difficult to solve via asynchronous communication.

-Scott

Everybody please take a breath and refocus on the nuts and bolts of the issue.

I can record FINE. I record at -3db on the VU meter. The track in RB looks fine. Wave form in the track shows from floor to ceiling, as it should recording that hot. (Just like the piano, guitar, organ....) That totally eliminates my hardware.

Then I play back, with the volume slider maxed out, and it plays back at -18 on the RB VU meter. That VU meter has absolutely zero to do with whether there is even a sound card connected to the computer, much less be specific to my hardware. I could pull the interface's USB cable out of the computer and those VU meters will do the exact same thing. No sound card would result in there being no way to translate and make audible noise, but that VU meter just reports the decibel level of what is being played back. (Correct?) And that level is 12 to 15db lower that what was recorded.

Also noteworthy, when I recorded the tests in Sonar, making no changes to mix, preamp, or distance from the mic, it came out at the same level it went in. Each track in Sonar has a VU meter and I watched when I recorded, and it was the same when it played back. Thus I can conclude that there is nothing wrong with my hardware or Windows interfacing with it. You guys know me well enough by now to know I am extremely thorough when I test. I test to the point of where I think it is fixed I break it again so I can fix it again and eliminate the "fluke" factor.

Also note other apps (Skype for one) have no issue with the M-Audio as the only audio device on the computer. They can hear me, I can hear them. In fact I am usually asked to turn the mic DOWN when I Skype. (Just like when I sing in public.)

I guess I need to get this to the tech support group, though I can't imagine they'd pay it much attention if I am the only one out of a billion users seeing this. I hate bouncing from DAW to DAW but if I have to compose in RB and then move tracks to Sonar to sing and mix, so be it.

Eddie, Eddie, Eddie. This just keeps on going and going....

Every week it seems you start another thread about some specific area of recording. People have posted links to dozens of websites about all of this. Every one of these questions is another years worth of study. Considering the online conversation we had recently about you going to school, I have one very good question for you:

Have you taken the time to study any of these links people have posted?

Bob

Eddie - we are trying to help, taking deep breaths, etc. In this same thread, you have stated:

Quote:

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Here's what I can tell you fromt he office. The mic and cable are the same mic and cable that we just finished using for 6 weeks of rehearsal. The issue is that the level when I record into RB is extremely weak. Allow me to diagram.

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But then you say this later in the thread:

Quote:

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Everybody please take a breath and refocus on the nuts and bolts of the issue.

I can record FINE. I record at -3db on the VU meter. The track in RB looks fine. Wave form in the track shows from floor to ceiling, as it should recording that hot. (Just like the piano, guitar, organ....) That totally eliminates my hardware.

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That's the contradiction that I can't resolve in my head. I don't think the hardware is 'totally eliminated'.

Which one is it, the diagram or the fully top-to-bottom waveform? My brain hurts from 1500 miles away on this. I want to help you with this, as evidenced by my responses, but I need to envision a simple system first, not one with cascading mic pre-amps and patchbays and potential for direct hardware monitoring at play.

I'd like to help, but I just can't tell what is going on (not that ever stopped me before!). Sounds like a simple user error -- or equipment problems. No sense beating your head against the wall -- unplug everything and start with a new simple chain.

Either Eddie or the FTP are broken no doubt.

Sounds to me like the track volume slider in RB is still set to 70% or so (default).
Push slider to the right in Tracks view or up in Mixer.

If the signal looks fine in waveform (matches the recorded level) then a playback slider is involved.

Signal out of RB affected by :
Track slider
ALL slider
Subgroup Slider (if used)
Possibly other audio Ports if sending out of computer and back in for any reason
A1 slider

Then out to slider in M-Audio on way out to monitors.