|
Log in to post
|
Print Thread |
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 604
Journeyman
|
OP
Journeyman
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 604 |
I would like to expand my R16 with another R16 to get 16 track recordings, but now I see that zoom warns that it might give a gap up to two mS between the recorders, will such a gap mean that I will have to slide some tracks to get them in sync or will it not be recognisable?
Strat!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,311
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,311 |
Hi Stratocaster.
I can't see that you're going to have a problem with up to 2ms. Actually trying to time slip accurately to 2ms would be a challenge in any case.
In the days when we used to sync two 24 track tape machines by running time code onto each machine and using an auto-locator we'd have been delighted with 2ms. Apart from the fact that it took about five seconds of running to lock the machines together, the wow and flutter meant that we never had as accurate a sync as with computers, but no one seemed to notice.
The only question which springs to mind is - wouldn't there be a cheaper and more reliable way of getting 16 tracks?
ROG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,641
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,641 |
You may very well have to slide some tracks.
However ..
with Resolution set to max, and an assumed tempo of 120 BPM ..
it is possible to slide selected tracks to much smaller amounts
If my math is right;
60000 ms per minute
At tempo of 120BPM = 500ms per beat
divided by 3840 divisions per beat (resolution)
equals .13 ms per division
You can slide what ya want where ya want it pretty accurately
Last edited by rharv; 06/14/13 06:44 PM.
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,311
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,311 |
You may very well have to slide some tracks. Hi rharv. I don't usually disagree with you, but there are just a couple of points... If we assume Zoom A is the master clock and Zoom B is the slave, then Zoom B is going to run 2ms behind Zoom A. If all the tracks are recorded from scratch with this set-up the tracks will still play back in sync. The only time a problem would arise is if the tracks were transferred in bulk to another medium where they were all running on the same machine. Then the tracks from Zoom B would have the 2ms error. However, we're not told that this is,in fact, the case. Second point is - can we hear a 2ms error? If you get a guitarist to play a series of notes to a click track and then look at the start time of each note, you'll see variations. Multiply this by sixteen tracks, where some start times are early and some late and it's difficult to spot 2ms overall. This is why we got away with it using tape. In fact, if you record a snare drum hit simultaneously onto tracks one and twenty four of a two inch multi-track tape, you will get time smearing when you play it back. I will concede that if all tracks are quantized VSTi the situation is not quite the same and I respect your maths for performing the correction. ROG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 604
Journeyman
|
|
OP
Journeyman
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 604 |
I aim to tranfer all the 16 track files to Real band by moving the SD Card to my PC, as I guess the two R16's files all will be written to the host's SD ?
Strat
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,311
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,311 |
I suspect not, but it's something to check out in the Zoom manual.
I would expect each machine to record in isolation to it's own SD card with just a clock signal being sent from the host to the slave.
ROG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,641
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,641 |
I guess my point was that if you need to slide them, it's no big deal and you can get them as accurate as you want. I wasn't arguing with you either ROG, but rather supplementing your answer and encouraging the OP to try it, as there would not be an unsolvable issue with the lag. Funny part is, once the files are transferred to RB it will likely appear that the Host machine's tracks are behind (not the slave) .. since it is the clock that will be off and not the actual audio. If the Slave clock marks a spot in the recording (start of audio for example) and the Host marks that spot 2 MS ahead of that, the host audio will appear to be have begun behind that spot. 
Last edited by rharv; 06/15/13 04:50 AM.
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 8,021
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 8,021 |
I would like to expand my R16 with another R16 to get 16 track recordings, but now I see that zoom warns that it might give a gap up to two mS between the recorders, will such a gap mean that I will have to slide some tracks to get them in sync or will it not be recognisable?
Strat! NO
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,641
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,641 |
http://www.recordinginstitute.com/da154/ARP/chap3Sig/0304delcor.htmlThe article gives a good idea of what 2 Ms is sound-wise. Maybe I'm overly fussy but I'd probably want to slide the tracks. Depending on what was being recorded of course.
Last edited by rharv; 06/15/13 05:30 AM.
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,311
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,311 |
rharv.
Much of what the article talks about is a delay in the range of 15ms+ and I'm quite in agreement that this can be audible. However, I'm still not sure about 2ms.
The article makes much of drum mic technique, but if we start to look at things in that depth, we find that an audience, listening live, hears the snare drum 2ms after the kick drum, but 1ms ahead of the floor tom. Should we, therefore attempt to arrange the drums in a straight line?
Wait a minute! What happens then, to the people sitting at the edges of the hall? They might also get the guitar and bass up to 5ms apart if the respective amps are at extreme edges of the stage.
As you say, we each make our own choices, but for me this approach is too academic. We're in danger of trying to make the recording more perfect than real life.
Above all, no offence meant.
ROG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 604
Journeyman
|
|
OP
Journeyman
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 604 |
Hey Guys!
I gather that the 2mS delay should present no problem whatsoever and we can be confident that investing in buying one more R16 will be no Waste of Money, is that what I hear you say? :-)
Thanks!
Strat
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,311
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,311 |
Hi Stratocaster.
That would seem to be about the size of it.
If you need to time slip, then as rharv correctly says, it can be accurately done. It's all down to what you yourself hear when you try it.
I think rharv and I are still friends, it's just that I can't resist the debate!
ROG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,641
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,641 |
Old AudioMinds adage -
"learn to trust your ears"
2 MS is like moving a mic about 2' closer/farther from the source.
I agree that there will likely not be any basic timing issues noticed .. however there may be phase issues and other things that come into play as a side effect.
My original point was that *even if there is something noticeable* (due to 2 MS delay) it is easy to fix.
Yes, we are still friends, and I enjoy the conversations also
Last edited by rharv; 06/16/13 05:50 AM.
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 604
Journeyman
|
|
OP
Journeyman
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 604 |
Thanks for your inputs :-)
Think that when I after all have one R16, buying one more is the cheapest way to get a total of 16 recordable tracks, that way we can have all the band incl. drums miked up when rehearsing :-)
Strat
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 8,021
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 8,021 |
I think that in this situation 2 mss will not be an issue however as Bob said is is easily fixed. Now to add a little to what Bob said. We spend lots of $$$ on speaker management systems to time align speakers in a box and there only inches behind or ahead of each other.Why? To prevent phase cancellation at the xover point. So it can matter but how many people can really hear it if not trained to listen for it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,641
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,641 |
I'm glad somebody finally understood my point.
You may not hear the 2ms as 'time' but it can make a difference in a recording's end result.
Stratocaster -
If you want to test 2 ms open a new project in RB
Set tempo to 120 and resolution to 240 (Options - resolution)
Record 2 tracks of guitar (or anything)
Now slide one track over by a single 'tick'.
That's about 2.083 ms
See if you notice anything.
In reality it will likely only matter if you have multiple mics in play at the same time in a recording, but it is something to watch for.
I've been asked to master recordings that were not corrected for time .. and it's awful hard to fix once the tracks are mixed. I've sent some back to be remixed because of it.
You can't remove phase cancellation after the fact because it is already missing data!
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,311
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,311 |
But surely, phase cancellation isn't what the OP is all about?
It's about different recorded tracks being 2ms apart, which isn't going to cause phase cancellation. Doesn't phase cancellation occur when a copy of the same program material is fed back in with a delay? This is, after all why we do separate mono mixes for AM radio in cases where the stereo mix uses a lot of time-based stereo effects such as chorus and flanging.
Just a thought..
ROG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,641
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,641 |
Recording in a live situation (his band he said if I recall) and having bleed over in the mics, 2ms delay *may* factor in.
Won't know until he tries and every recording he does may be different.
It's just something to watch out for.
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 604
Journeyman
|
|
OP
Journeyman
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 604 |
The manual doesn't go much in depth regarding linking two R16's, it doesn't say anything about SD Cards, it says how to connect the two R16's with a USB cable and how to put them into a Master/slave state. The command keys on the master: play/record/FF/stop, will also control the slave. My trials show that Rog is right in assuming that each R16 must hold an SD, and when creating a new project it must be done on both the master and the slave!
Thanks for your help!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
User Video: Next-Level AI Music Editing with ACE Studio and Band-in-a-Box®
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 German for Windows is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 für Windows Deutsch ist verfügbar!
Wir waren fleißig und haben über 50 neue Funktionen und eine erstaunliche Sammlung neuer Inhalte hinzugefügt, darunter 222 RealTracks, neue RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, "Songs with Vocals" Artist Performance Sets, abspielbare RealTracks Set 3, abspielbare RealDrums Set 2, zwei neue Sets von "RealDrums Stems", XPro Styles PAK 6, Xtra Styles PAK 17 und mehr!
Paket | Was ist Neu
Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums66
Topics81,662
Posts735,544
Members38,532
| |
Most Online2,537
Jan 19th, 2020
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dansk
Deutsch - Windows
Español
Français - Windows
Italiano - Windows
Nederlands
Polski
Português
Svenskt
русский
Japanese
Simplified Chinese
Traditional Chinese
Korean