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raymb1 #213584 09/01/13 12:19 PM
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I saw a couple comments in this thread that bothered me;

Since when is 50 old? I hit that marker last year, but still.
I'm trying to not be old, does that count?

I'm on the >50 side, yet I want a redesign, so how do I vote?

Also,
Can our graphics department do the redesign? (that would be cool)


Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
raymb1 #213586 09/01/13 01:18 PM
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+1 on a redesign of the GUI _and_ unification of the main programs: BIAB and RealBand. I think adobe got it right with its unification of Lightroom, Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. At least when you go into those programs, you know where to find something. With BIAB and RB, it's always a treasure hunt. The latter can often be fun and lead to new discoveries, but sometimes I just want to get the danged project finished and start the music.

FWIW, I'm older than rharv, not that it matters.

Bob aka jazzwombat aka Dr. Fills Jazz

raymb1 #213590 09/01/13 02:35 PM
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At least, 2013.5 is tabled for a few minutes. Later, Ray


Asus Q500A i7 Win 10 64 bit 8GB ram 750 HD 15.5" touch screen, BIAB 2017, Casio PX 5s, Xw P1, Center Point Stereo SS V3 and EWI 4000s.
Bob_B #213597 09/01/13 03:55 PM
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I am all for a GUI redesign but I am totally against the unification of BiaB and RealBand. A good number of BiaB users use a different DAW for various reasons.

I vote to keep BiaB and RB separate.


Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.

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MarioD #213599 09/01/13 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted By: MarioD
I am all for a GUI redesign but I am totally against the unification of BiaB and RealBand. A good number of BiaB users use a different DAW for various reasons.

I vote to keep BiaB and RB separate.


Hi Mario,

Just to clarify: what I was suggesting was a unification of GUIs (menus especially), so options/preferences would be in the same place, as they are not in the current iterations of the programs. I too would not want to see BIAB and RB combined, if I read your post correctly.

L8r, Bob

Bob_B #213606 09/01/13 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted By: jazzwombat
Originally Posted By: MarioD
I am all for a GUI redesign but I am totally against the unification of BiaB and RealBand. A good number of BiaB users use a different DAW for various reasons.

I vote to keep BiaB and RB separate.


Hi Mario,

Just to clarify: what I was suggesting was a unification of GUIs (menus especially), so options/preferences would be in the same place, as they are not in the current iterations of the programs. I too would not want to see BIAB and RB combined, if I read your post correctly.

L8r, Bob


Sorry Bob, my bad. I miss read your post to say you wanted to combined BiaB and RB. Sorry for the confusion, we are on the same page. That is do not combined BiaB with RB.


Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.

64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Tony Wright #213619 09/01/13 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted By: Tony Wright
I have long thought that this forum, helpful though it has been, is PG's worst enemy. I sincerely hope that PG are not listening only to this forum when deciding how to bring BIAB into the 21st century. Ironically, many long time forum members are the least qualified to advise PG.

although that is a hard pill to swallow, I agree 100%, Tony!

Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
My big worry for the company's future is this forum. It's like an old folks home around here. Ok, I'll say mostly, I know there's a few regulars who are under 50 but not many. What must a 30 year old who happens to find this place who knows nothing about the program think when most of the threads are about 50 year old tunes and people talking about nursing home gigs? I fear PG won't survive in the long run if they don't modernize for the younger crowd and it starts with the look.

I am in the 50+ club too but as a software developer for 35 years I appreciate good-looking as well as high-functioning software! I have several 30-something friends who are great musicians and songwriters and they LOVE modern DAW software and tools like GarageBand...when I show them BIAB or this forum they find it to be "ugly", "old", "outdated" and so on.

and maybe it is their loss but it is also PG Music's loss too!

and to anyone who dismisses great GUI as just fluff you are sorely mistaken! great GUI makes for a better, more efficient workflow. saves you time and effort. lets you finish your project quicker. and when it is a joy to use you smile more during production and that always helps too!

Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 09/01/13 10:06 PM.
raymb1 #213623 09/01/13 11:52 PM
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TBH, I don't give a "rats" how it looks, how it works is the only thing that matters.

joden #213627 09/02/13 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted By: joden
TBH, I don't give a "rats" how it looks, how it works is the only thing that matters.

I doubt that is entirely true! if they reverted to a DOS command line you'd probably be unhappy with it even though it would still "work"! to many people, especially younger artists, that is what BIAB looks like!

joden #213638 09/02/13 05:57 AM
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I tend to agree with you, Joden. Once I hit the space bar for play, how BIAB looks is irrelevant. Space bar is also set to stop the song. BIAB can change the interface to look more modern, as long as the functionality remains the same. Later, Ray


Asus Q500A i7 Win 10 64 bit 8GB ram 750 HD 15.5" touch screen, BIAB 2017, Casio PX 5s, Xw P1, Center Point Stereo SS V3 and EWI 4000s.
raymb1 #213646 09/02/13 06:41 AM
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Here is my preferences for any software application:

First, stability! I don't want buggy and crashes. Based on my experience with BIAB I give it a B+ rating on this criteria, and that ain't bad.

Second, features! It has to do what it claims to do and is the reason I bought it. Here BAIB gets an A. Let me add, absolutely nothing on the market comes close to doing what this program does.

Third, Cost! I have to be able to afford it. This is a tough one to rate as it is hard to put a value on this, other than to compare to other software I purchase. Given that it is generally at the upper end of my pain threshold for computer software I would give it a C for a first time purchase. However, since I get each upgrade and the cost is much less I would give it a B.

Finally, appearance and workflow. I think the entire discussion to date is related to what I consider the least important criteria. So I will generally agree with the masses and give a rating of C-. A spiffy GUI would increase the rating greatly. And workflow is extremely important when comparing one application to another, however given that there is no other application to compare this to, it becomes a moot point.

So overall a strong B. So until someone can beat that I continue to purchase the yearly upgrades.


Dan, BIAB2024, SoundCloud Win11, i7(12thGen), 32GB, 1TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD), 2TB Libraries, 1 TB(WD-Black), 2TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD)Data, Motu Audio Express, Keystation 61, SL88 Studio, Reaper

raymb1 #213665 09/02/13 10:59 AM
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1) despite years of predictions that BIAB can't continue to exist with its current look & feel... it continues to exist (by popular demand)

2) complex feature set justifies the learning curve

3) if you can't find an answer in the docs, post a question to the forum. Somebody somewhere in the world will be online and answer the question. This holds true even if the answer *IS* in the docs and you're too lazy to look for it. BIAB users delight in helping one another.

4) best overview of features is the video series of "new features" for each version, found here: http://www.pgmusic.com/videos.bbwin.htm

5) not conforming to a standard (ie. not being like everybody else) is characteristic of free-thinking innovation. If you let innovation drive the product, you can always clean up the docs or interface later. But in the past few years the innovation has come so fast and so rich that I can't imagine there's been time to deal with the other issues.

6) Every product has a life expectancy. Life expectancy is based on how well it serves its purpose. We've all seen programs with fancy interfaces outlive their usefulness. PGMusic products stand almost alone in their devotion to music theory. Theory is here to stay, whereas programs whose only claim to fame is a slick way to do something that's popular today.. those programs will pass away

7) if it's too old fashioned or loathesome to learn... don't buy it! Problem solved! But you'll buy it anyway like all the rest of us, because nothing else does what PGMusic products do.

8) PGMusic will undoubtedly update the docs and interface at some point. But it remains to be seen whether other music software will continue to differentiate themselves through innovation.

raymb1 #213680 09/02/13 01:57 PM
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C'mon Joden and Ray, you're kidding right? Looks don't matter, just functionality?? Really?

How about this then. Lexus could easily put all their high tech goodies into a car that looks like a 1962 Russian Volga. Remember Men In Black? Agent K picks up Will Smith in what looks like a 1985 Ford Crown Vic. What does Will say? "All the technology in the universe and you drive around in this Ford pos."

Looks matter. A lot. You have to grab their attention first before you can start to sell them on the product. I seem to remember in the long ago distant past that that applies to chasing chicks too.<grin>

RHarv, my only point is 50 is old to a 28 year old and that's who PG needs to start marketing to.

Bob


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jazzmammal #213681 09/02/13 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
C'mon Joden and Ray, you're kidding right? Looks don't matter, just functionality?? Really?

How about this then. Lexus could easily put all their high tech goodies into a car that looks like a 1962 Russian Volga. Remember Men In Black? Agent K picks up Will Smith in what looks like a 1985 Ford Crown Vic. What does Will say? "All the technology in the universe and you drive around in this Ford pos."

Looks matter. A lot. You have to grab their attention first before you can start to sell them on the product. I seem to remember in the long ago distant past that that applies to chasing chicks too.<grin>

RHarv, my only point is 50 is old to a 28 year old and that's who PG needs to start marketing to.

Bob


Yep REALLY!!! smile

Should see the old van I drive around in. I don't care how it looks just how it works. Gets me from A to B and in the manner it needs to.

This seemingly modern obsession with looks even spills over into how successful a muso can be these days - if one does not have great looks, then forget about getting contracts, recognition, any sort of recording deals or concerts, no matter how good or talented a person is.

Nope, not for me smile for me it is function over form any day!

jazzmammal #213685 09/02/13 02:45 PM
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I bought BIAB for what it could do, not what it looked like. I'm not looking at BIAB while I'm playing, neither is anyone else. All your comparisons don't mean a thing. BIAB's looks don't have a thing to do with the sound that's coming out of my PA. All the places that I play are concerned with the sound and quality of my music, not what my PC screen looks like. Later, Ray


Asus Q500A i7 Win 10 64 bit 8GB ram 750 HD 15.5" touch screen, BIAB 2017, Casio PX 5s, Xw P1, Center Point Stereo SS V3 and EWI 4000s.
joden #213689 09/02/13 02:55 PM
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I think it is a mistake to frame this as a matter of form "versus" functionality, because they actually complement one another.

I am not talking about a slick GUI for it's own sake; I don't care if the font and colors hearken back to Windows 3.1.

Rather, the problem with the GUI is that it is so perplexing. Things take so much figuring out that it's coitus interruptus left right and center; the moments of artistic "high" are there, but punctuated by lots and lots of head-scratching, manual consultation, forum queries, etc.

Really good software is designed so that as much as possible it becomes "invisible" i.e. you spend much more time concentrating on what you are doing with it, as opposed to puzzling over how you do it.

If you think this is just an unavoidable fact of life, due to BIAB's deep feature set, try downloading free demos of Melodyne or Studio One. Both -- especially Melodyne -- are not only extremely innovative (Melodyne recently won a technical Grammy)but are also simply a joy to use, because they are quite intuitive, despite being very sophisticated, powerful and feature-packed.

Whereas BIAB hides its gifts to the world behind a mind-numbing GUI. I know many of y'all have been using it for years and have reconciled yourselves to it. I for one am trying to love it, but it is just such a labor.

If it could be made more accessible -- again, not "purdy" as such, but accessible -- it would be catapulted from being the favorite of a tight-knit niche to being something the computer-based music-making world would flock to.

Ok, try not to beat me up, I'm new.

lingyai #213691 09/02/13 03:29 PM
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Lingyai,

Not to worry. Your thoughtful questions and comments are welcome and appreciated. I for one hope to see you as a regular here.

Richard


"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
lingyai #213697 09/02/13 04:26 PM
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Welcome to BIAB and the forums. Like I said before, no one is looking at my GUI. What really matters is what's coming out of the PA. Once you've become more familiar with BIAB, you'll see how easy it is to do most things. There's plenty of help here in the forums. Out of all those dozens of icons, you can just choose which ones you want showing and hide all the rest. By the way, I've been using BIAB for live gigs for many years and love the program. There's no other program that does what BIAB does. If there were another program that does what BIAB does and looks better, then you could say "why not do it like ???? program?". Later, Ray


Asus Q500A i7 Win 10 64 bit 8GB ram 750 HD 15.5" touch screen, BIAB 2017, Casio PX 5s, Xw P1, Center Point Stereo SS V3 and EWI 4000s.
raymb1 #213698 09/02/13 04:44 PM
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Well, thanks y'all. You will get questions, rest assured!

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I like Ray's thinkin' on this issue. For me, it's the results of live play. I know how to arrange tunes, create intros and endings with BIAB, then go play live gigs. For my purposes, that's all I need/want to do. All that other stuff is fluff.

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