PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic SONG WRITING ... thoughts from our heavy hitters

That is the key IMHO

I consider Good Vibrations from the album Pet Sounds by the Beach Boys to be a breakout song.

I had the opportunity years ago to submit a song for a Nashville project. The opportunity came about from a recommendation to the producer by a friend of my late brother. The friend of my brother, who I had briefly met on a visit with my brother had heard a particular song I had written and he felt it met the criteria of the project. I asked if I could submit any other songs and was allowed to submit two other songs - 3 songs on a CD. The project was in its early planning stages and the song I had be asked to submit was placed on a hold situation. I heard from the producer several times over the next several months giving brief updates on the status of the project.

Then one day I received a call from the producer and he began to ask about one of the other songs I submitted. This was the first time any of my other two submissions had been acknowledged or mentioned in any manner. The producer explained that he listened to CD's that had been submitted for the project every day and normally listened to all the songs on each CD. On that particular day according to the producer, as he was driving and had my CD in, his mind wandered back in time to a girl he dated as a teenager and hadn't thought of her in years. To make a long story short, he had listened to that song probably a dozen times and it meant nothing until that day, a connection was made between his recollection and this particular song. The producer spoke with me nearly an hour dissecting this song. Going over each line of the lyrics, questioning why I chose a particular phrase or word, if the lyrics were based on real life or was it an imaginary story. He wanted to know everything about the song and story because in his mind, it matched the emotions and memories of his own experience. In this instance, a song that had been meaningless countless times before, became relevant to him in a moment. This would never have happened had he chosen another CD to listen to that day. He advised he would definitely use this song too.

Unfortunately for me, the project never was completed and neither song was recorded but I learned a lot about the nuances of songwriting from the experience.

SUCH an interesting thread. Thank you guys. I am learning so much.

It is so interesting what is being said about rap music being used as base for other genres. Did anybody see Christina Grimmie on the voice singing a Lille Wayne song in a soul arrangement (I think it is soul but I am bit wobbly on genre's). That is what interests me. Turnin something on its head and producing something completely new.

Interesting also what Floyd has said about songs being fresh. I have had a few songs shortlisted for opportunties on Broadjam and mainly when they were "fresh" and written on the spur of the moment for a particular opportunity. I think the chance of the "old" songs being selected are very very slim.

In 1976, "Moonlight Feels Right" was released by Starbuck and went #3 in the States, and even number 1 elsewhere.

Who would have thought that a song with a Marimba Solo could do so well in the charts?

So, to concur with the others, the choice of instruments don't have to follow any specific conformity to be successful. Bring 'em on.

Cheers
Trevor

Interesting thoughts going on here. If I may add a couple of observations outside of where this thread has gone.
One idea is that instead of looking at what Nashville wants, it might be interesting to see what the folks that like country genre buy, live, and do.
What do they need in music, "Feel Good" or an Anthem or crying in your beer.
What's their story, it will be the story in our lyrics.
I think it's a main POV instead of a main rhythm.
Next point. My wife & I write some Gospel music and have seen a move to "Praise" Gospel instead of a story based Gospel.
We tend to write Bible verse centered lyrics and find Praise music only part of the song as if it's a chorus only song with nothing else.
Some are great, some not as strong as it could be with a bit more Biblical foundation in them.
Instead of following the trend, we'll incorporate the 2 styles and try to stay relevant and true to the Bible.
My point, I guess, is to stay true to the message you want people to hear and stay contemporary .
Wyndham

At the end of Bach's career he was considered old fashioned because his music was based on counter melodies (counterpoint) and the "contemporary" music was leaning towards a more dominant single melody supported by accompaniment. He might not have made the billboard hot 100 there at the end.

He was a stick-in-the-mud. I used to constantly tell him - "Joe, man, you've got to lose the counterpoint thing and get hip with some single melodies!"

Would he listen? NO!

I make no claim to being a heavy, unless being pounds over my ideal weight counts:) I did have a part in this discussion though.

Like I said, I attended a couple of writing workshops with heavy hitters, hit makers. A song-writing friend convinced me to go. There were a hundred people looking for the 'formula'. The thing is, there isn't one. Those songwriters each told unique stories. 'Five Minutes' sat with a publisher for a long time, if I remember the story correctly, and was finally pitched to Lorrie Morgan, who was an unknown at that time. The rest is history, but the stars had to align for that to even happen.

For what they're worth, here are the nuggets I got from those workshops.

1. You're either transmitting(writing) or receiving(not-writing, listening). Both are equally valuable.

2. Write about what you know.


I recently asked in another thread if anyone was making money from their music. By that I meant from their songs, either with publishing deals or on-line sales or whatever, but not from playing gigs. At the time I was thinking about joining Taxi or Broadjam, still am, but as far as I know, the answer to the question is 'No.'

I've never pitched a song, never tried to. I plan to, one of these days, but I have no expectations. The odds against are too great. On the other hand, people do win lotteries so I won't stop dreaming altogether:)

good one!

When I first heard Paul Simon's "50 Ways to Leave Your Lover" I remember thinking what a departure it was from everything else that was popular at the time.

unfortunately, there *IS* a formula for what sold well last year... because every wannabe in the music world has dissected what worked previously and has done his/her best to recreate the magic. Before this thread, I would have said that the big dogs exacerbate the problem by requiring all submissions to match the formula. Now, based on what Floyd has said, that seems partially true at best. It sounds like they're looking for something that's formula enough to fit the public's expectations, but new enough to bring something fresh to the equation.

My guess is it would be very hard to come up with something TOTALLY innovative that the big dogs would be willing to risk time and money on (even if you were a Nashville staff writer, which we ain't)





This is mainly why I don't post songs to the user showcase. I am blown away by the stuff y'all post here, its all so good I could never compete. I also know songwriters on other forums who make their absolutely awesome songs available for free, and can't get people to DL them. So I focus on making trax for performances. Production doesn't have to be nearly as good, and in the final analysis I know there is at least a little money to be made by performing.

But it kind of makes me sad to think that all of the time and effort required to write good songs is not as financially rewarding as a 1 week course in brick-laying.

Re: Oleman and making money from recorded music -

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I was part of a band in the mid-1970's and we released one album. I wrote 9 of the songs and co-wrote the 10th. I married shortly after the release of the album and left the band. Our manager/promoter recouped his investment in our group from sales of the album and my entire 'accounts receivable' from the release was $300.

About a year ago, a company purchased the building and contents of the studio where we recorded the album and there was material of some kind or other archived in the building regarding our time in the studio. A record collector was involved in that purchase and found me via the internet and contacted me about the availability of any vinyl records still existing. I still had a few in storage and sold him a couple for $96.

I'm obviously not writing for the money. ;=)

It is my goal to improve my writing and production to also place with Taxi and CD Baby, Itunes, etc. I'm not familiar with Broadjam, but will check it out too.

I study postings from forums, online seminars and writer/artist biographies and such trying to make sure I am placing my focus into the right areas.

I am currently immersed in the writing career of Bill Anderson. A year or so back, he received either a CMA or ACM award for a song he co-wrote and it was his first formal recognition i believe in 24 years. That prompted me to check him out. He had been busy writing and had been one of Nashville's top writers throughout the 1960's and early 70's. I began to research him and while not winning awards, he was placing hits with artists like Steve Wariner, Joe Nichols, George Strait, Kenny Chesney and Sugarland. Since 1992, every song I've found listed, he has co-written. There is no resemblance between his writing in the 1960's to what he outputs today.

re: Pat Marr and commercial success from writing music.

I stopped writing and performing music after leaving a successful band in 1975 opting for a secure future with a day job, benefits and retirement. My oldest brother came to visit me for a week or so in 1984 to try and encourage me back into writing. Nothing came from it.
In 1998 he made a more concerted effort bringing me to Nashville. He took me to various recording studios, introduced me to different producers, AR folk & such. He also made sure I met writers who were making a comfortable living off of writing. He was deliberate in introducing me also to writers who continued to live off a single huge hit or two written and released many years ago. By sound investing of their income at the time, they did not have to work a day job. His point was to show me you only need to get it right once.

Charlie - struggling Nashville writers DREAM of those kinds of introductions... and work hard for years trying to get to that point...

A trip to the local cinema can provide some insight into what interests the people who buy music for film projects.

My take on the music industry right now is that fusion is king... everybody seems to be fusing old ideas into something familiar yet different.

Which demographic likes hiphop? Classical? Rock? Jazz? R&B? Electronica? Celtic? In my opinion some of the most remarkable music these days is being made for films, and film music has to draw from many genres to appeal to every kind of audience.

true... but in order to get it right once, you have to pretty much sell your soul to the system for years, and even then there is no guarantee you'll get it right even once.

Prior to selling your soul to the system, its a good idea to know if you have the talent to seize an opportunity if one comes along. I know I don't have that talent.

My hat is off to the people who try though... they are better songwriters for their determination

Cross genre songs don't occur as often as they use to but some songs seem designed to achieve that goal. In my mind, "Lights" by Journey could have easily been successful on the country chart as it was on the rock chart. Another song ripe for crossover success is "As Long As I Love You" by Backstreet Boys. Keep the vocal, bass and drum track and replace the instrument tracks for a pretty good country song. Nowdays with the release of alternative mixes it's pretty easy to discover that one of your favorite songs could have easily been released way different from the version you remember and love.

If I was seeking commercial success as a songwriter, I would concentrate on writing "seasonal" or "Christmas" songs. There is an annual need for fresh material, if a particular artist's version becomes a standard your heirs will be collecting royalities for generations, songs can more easily adapt to various genre performaces and, most important of all, you don't have to try to match current trends.

Late to the party.... just got back from watching my daughter's college graduation.

I think what happens is that every so often a new song with a cool sound or lyrical theme grabs the top of the charts and suddenly, everyone wants songs like that and everybody starts writing them.

A good example is the currently hot guy's theme of pickup trucks, hot girls, bonfires, out in the woods, etc.... She think's my tractor's sexy, Country boys & girls getting down on the farm....etc...and now every male artist in N-town has one of these songs on his set list/CD.

Taylor Swift shifted the focus to teen pop, boyfriend troubles, with serious rock guitars......

The thing I'm noticing starting to come out of more old traditional style remade heavy rock.... Band Perry with Chainsaw..... and a few others I've heard but haven't caught the names involved. Dobros and banjo's with a heavy 4 on the floor kicking rhythm behind it....and distorted guitars that Def Leopard would be proud of....

Every year or so a new trend occurs, those who see it early enough and write a super song and have the connections to get it in front of the movers and shakers, has a chance. Wait until the trend is fully developed and recognized and the time delay between writing, the A&R hearing, getting it to the artist, becomes the problem, because if it's yesterday's news, it will be dropped from the project. Lots of good, really good songs get thrown on the cutting room floor.

I had Jason Blume sit down at a songwriter's convention in LA a few years back. I had his full attention for 15 minutes and we quickly listened to 2 songs. His comments were to the effect that, hey, you write good songs,,,, but.... in Nashville there are 20,000 people who all want to be song writers and they are good writers too. Your material, from what I just heard is right there with them.... but that, my friend, is the entire problem. You can not be right there with them.... you have to be better than they are in order to stand out from those 20,000 really good and talented writers who are pounding the sidewalks of Nashville looking for the same hit that you are.

I don't have the time or the money or the ability at this point to just drop every thing and head to n-town and live in my truck for a few months while trying to co-write.....

That kinda puts it into perspective. So, I focus on my writing skills, and melody and lyrics and do what I can, while at the same time trying to run a business and keep my family life happy and it's not easy. Music was at one time how I made a living and I did it full time for a number of years playing live gigs. Now days, it's part time, but a serious part time hobby. I take my writing and I take my recording very seriously but I try not to take myself seriously.

I gave up dying on the sword as the expression goes, over my songs. Comments good and bad... hey neither of them bother me. I write with other people, and try to be honest in that writing.... if I like something, and it's good we keep it, if I write or they write something that isn't good, hey, it goes. It's not good just because I wrote it. I re-write more stuff than I write. Nothing you hear is ever a first draft. Nothing is carved in stone, and everything can be replaced. That's my writing philosophy.

Put that together with seminars and books on songwriting, as well as hanging out on forums which the inhabitants are focused more on the song than the production, and you start to learn something about writing. Are songwriters born that way? Some are, very few are actually..... most are folks like you and me who learned the skills and did the right things and pursued the craft and art of the song for thousands upon thousands of hours.....and suddenly, magically, overnight, they were a huge success by having written "that song"....everyone calls it an overnight success story..... ha!!

If I can write a song that gets cut and somehow makes it into the charts, hey, that's really cool...I'll take that. If I never get a cut, I will still keep writing and playing and composing for as long as I have breath and am able to figure out how to turn on my computer and pick up a guitar and strum a chord. I enjoy it, so what else can I do? I hate sports, I don't play golf, and I can't hunt or fish every day...... so...I guess it's music.

I simply enjoy the pleasure of digging down inside of me to find those words and chords that go together, and when it's happening, it's the biggest and best high in the world. Then to hear the finished product... how can it get any better than that? Yeah I know.... to be nominated by the Country Music Association for song of the year..... That would be cool..

that's my 2 cents for now....

For a Christmas song.... write it around Christmas.....demo it in the late winter when it's done..... because the artists are in the recording studio starting in July to choose the songs and start the recording process and shoot the video to have the song ready for release in the stores and to radio & TV by October....or November.

And.... there are thousands of songwriters who know that and are plugging their new and older unreleased holiday music.

NSAI had over 120 songs by members in one year that were deemed good enough to pitch to publishers, and that doesn't even begin to count the thousands of songs that were not written well enough, or recorded well enough to make it over that high bar for "demo" songs in N-town these days......and they were ALL christmas music. And that was just one year. From one outlet. There aren't that many slots available and many artists are writing and co-writing their own stuff.....Swift, Paisley, Band Perry.... so that reduces the slots to maybe one or two outside writers per project..... man it's just downright depressing to even think about it.

BTW: My song The Best Christmas, was one of those 120 songs that did make it over the bar..... but, in the end, only 12 of those 120 were chosen for a CD that went to publishers for the annual Christmas offerings from NSAI....and my song did not make that cut.

RE: to Floyd and Nashville introductions -
It was so cool hearing my demo played through a real system in a room made specifically with great acoustics in mind. The embarrassing part was the demos were recorded by my band and one particular demo had a cover song we had did a major remake version - The producer had been polite but it was obvious he wasn't blown away by the original stuff. The cover song came up, he turned the volume up and turned to us and said,"You got any more like this?" $%$$^&&^%% crash and burn $^&&(&*&$%
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I'd like a second chance at the opportunities I've blown.