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Just because I believe the copyright laws should be modified, does not mean I don't respect the right of the copyright holder to profit on his/her work.
As I also indicated:
1) I have a few dozen copyrights
2) I abide by the laws as written
But in a democratic republic such as the USA, sometimes the laws are not strong enough, sometimes they are too strong. The flexibility to change that is built into the system.
I believe the copyright laws are necessary, but I think a little revision could make them better and more fair to all.
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Interesting info, thanks for posting.
Later,
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Actually, the evidence indicates that Happy Birthday is not under copyright. Edit: Correction to above: I meant to write "should not be under copyright". I should not have written that I disputed that it has a copyright, but instead that copyright should never have been assigned.  The main reason that "Happy Birthday" still gets royalties is that it's cheaper to pay the royalties than contest it. The melody is from the 1893 song "Good Morning To You" (now in public domain). The lyric was grafted from a pre-existing version of "Happy Birthday". It appears that grafting the two may have been done by the author's students. In fact, "Happy Birthday To You" was published (not by the authors) in 1912 with instructions to sing the song to the tune of "Good Morning To You" with these alternate lyrics. Then in 1935, a company claimed "Happy Birthday To You" was their own work - over 20 years after it had been published in that form. They'd been profiting from it ever since.
Last edited by dcuny; 06/06/14 10:08 AM.
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Here in Germany, actually in the entire European Union, in 2016 the copyright to "Happy Birthday" ends.
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From what I understand.....HAPPY BIRTHDAY is still under copyright protection and will be for another 16 years or so. What Snopes has to say about it. Could be.... that's why the Beatles did a totally different song about birthdays?
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 06/06/14 04:49 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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From what I understand.....HAPPY BIRTHDAY is still under copyright protection and will be for another 16 years or so. What Snopes has to say about it. Could be.... that's why the Beatles did a totally different song about birthdays? And why most every restaurant that has the wait staff sing to the birthday person has a different birthday song. If the staff would sing that one song and only that one song to birthday people, and if that was the only song ever sung in that restaurant, the restaurant would have to buy an ASCAP license. It's an example of what I think is excessive about current copyright laws. Again, I support copyright, but think some fine tuning should be applied -- and I'm not sure exactly how much tuning is needed. Insights and incites by Notes
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2030 -- that is for the U.S. and only because that song is so old that the copyright registration counts more than the passing of the authors (if I understand that correctly).
Copyright of a song passes away in Europe at the 31st of December of the year +70 after the last author passed away. Patty Hill died in 1946 + 70 = 2016. In the Europe there will be no more royalties paid for "Happy Birthday to You" effective January 1st, 2017.
Warner must find another source of income here.
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I didn't mean say that the song wasn't copyrighted, I meant to say that it shouldn't be under copyright. Sorry about that! The Snopes article (written in 2007) says: - The sisters wrote "Good Morning To You".
- They didn't write the lyrics "Happy Birthday To You".
- The song - with the "Happy Birthday" lyrics - was published.
- After it became popular, a company claimed copyright to the song.
Even Snopes says that it is "murky", because no one knows who put the words to the Hill's song. The Salon article (written in 2011) goes into further detail on this. Since the melody is in public domain at this point, and the company claimed copyright on the song that there's clear published evidence that they didn't write, they never should have been granted copyright to the song. That's clear from Snopes as well. As the Salon article points out, the only reason that the copyright continues to stand is because it's cheaper to pay the licensing than to contest it.
Last edited by dcuny; 06/07/14 01:56 AM. Reason: I kant spel
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I have never understood this thing with songs, it is stupid in my opinion to ask money because someone sings a cover song; why the different agencies demand money for people singing in clubs and the like.
Just my opinion: unless you record it and sale it; then it should not matter if you sing it, and that goes for any song whether it is the latest hit or something from the 20's. There is a difference between a true professional who records another singer or songwriters song and makes money from it's sale (and by this I mean an artist signed to a record label) not just a bar or lounge singer who might get paid to perform. Now if the band in the bar records their show and makes a CD or dvd and sales it, or has previously made cds with cover songs to sale then yeah they need to pay. But If I sing a cover song here in Ky, It is not effecting the original performer and songwriter one bit, I have not robbed them, it has not taken any money from them. Now if I record it and start selling it, then I believe the royalties should be given them just like any professional artist would have to. Next thing they will be asking carpenters to pay royalties each time they use their name brand hammers, LOL!
Of course it is the law so we have to go by the rules no matter how ignorant they are.
My TunesPsalm 57:7 My heart, O God, is steadfast, my heart is steadfast; I will sing and make music.
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I have never understood this thing with songs, it is stupid in my opinion to ask money because someone sings a cover song; why the different agencies demand money for people singing in clubs and the like.
Just my opinion: unless you record it and sale it; then it should not matter if you sing it, and that goes for any song whether it is the latest hit or something from the 20's. There is a difference between a true professional who records another singer or songwriters song and makes money from it's sale (and by this I mean an artist signed to a record label) not just a bar or lounge singer who might get paid to perform. Now if the band in the bar records their show and makes a CD or dvd and sales it, or has previously made cds with cover songs to sale then yeah they need to pay. But If I sing a cover song here in Ky, It is not effecting the original performer and songwriter one bit, I have not robbed them, it has not taken any money from them. Now if I record it and start selling it, then I believe the royalties should be given them just like any professional artist would have to. Next thing they will be asking carpenters to pay royalties each time they use their name brand hammers, LOL!
Of course it is the law so we have to go by the rules no matter how ignorant they are. You might feel differently if you were the owner of the copyright. The cover band, club owner, wait staff and everyone else making money at the venue are making money off the song. The song that the writer has written, demoed, pitched and contracted to a publisher who has re-demoed, produced, shopped, promoted and contracted to a record company, etc. 99% of songs produced do not even recoup the expense of producing them. The 1% that are “hits” sustain the entire industry. Should they be offered for free, when everyone else down the chain profits from them?
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Dang... we just sang "Happy Birthday" in a restaurant a few nights ago to my 11 year old niece for her birthday.
I bet we owe some royalties for that "public performance" of the song.....
ssssshhhhh.. don't tell anyone....OK?
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Dang... we just sang "Happy Birthday" in a restaurant a few nights ago to my 11 year old niece for her birthday.
I bet we owe some royalties for that "public performance" of the song.....
ssssshhhhh.. don't tell anyone....OK? "ACTION NEWS 12 BREAKING NEWS... Music industry authorities tracked down a man who admitted in a computer forum to violating copyright law...."  given the small amounts of money the artists make on Spotify... if they catch you and you pay the penny you owe... do you get credit for the other 2,000 times the penny entitles you to sing the song?
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My own thoughts:
1) Copyrights should last either until the writer dies or 20 years if he/she dies sooner than 20 years after he/she writes it
2) Public performances in a not-for profit place should be fair use
3) Playing in a profit place like a bar/lounge should only be paid if an ASCAP or BMI agent notes every song that is being played and sends the list in so the songwriter gets royalties. Right now, how do they know what songs I sang in the Embassy Suites last night? The hotel paid their license, but ASCAP/BMI has no idea what we played. So who is going to get the money? It was a 50 year high school reunion. Did Neil Sedaka, Howard Greenfield, Otis Blackwell, Ritchie Adams, Malou Rene, Mack Gordon, Harry Warren, Hank Ballard, Bunny Wailer, Smokey Robinson, Barry Mann, Phil Spector, Cynthia Weill, Bernard Edwards, Nile Rodgers, Luis Demetrio, Pablo Beltran Ruiz and all the others get paid?
90db, if I played one of your songs, would you have gotten even one penny?
I played one of mine and didn't get royalties from it.
You can't ask the band for a playlist as we have none. We watch the crowd, call the next song sometimes only a few seconds before the first one ends, and then go right into the next song so as not to lose the dance floor. There is no time to jot them down, so it should be the responsibility of an agent of the performing rights society.
4) The publisher should not be allowed to make more money on the song than the songwriter. Who's song is it anyway?
Those are a few of the things I'd bring up to the table if someone invited me to a brainstorm session on how to change the copyright laws.
Notes
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“Playing in a profit place like a bar/lounge should only be paid if an ASCAP or BMI agent notes every song that is being played and sends the list in so the songwriter gets royalties. Right now, how do they know what songs I sang in the Embassy Suites last night? The hotel paid their license, but ASCAP/BMI has no idea what we played. So who is going to get the money? It was a 50 year high school reunion. Did Neil Sedaka, Howard Greenfield, Otis Blackwell, Ritchie Adams, Malou Rene, Mack Gordon, Harry Warren, Hank Ballard, Bunny Wailer, Smokey Robinson, Barry Mann, Phil Spector, Cynthia Weill, Bernard Edwards, Nile Rodgers, Luis Demetrio, Pablo Beltran Ruiz and all the others get paid?” Yes, they would have been paid, if you had made a simple MP3 recording of the performance, noted the songs and writers, and submitted the list to ASCAP/BMI. Otherwise, the royalties are paid into the “General Licensing Allocation.” In that case, the big fish get all the royalties. Now this practice should be changed, for sure. “90db, if I played one of your songs, would you have gotten even one penny?” Yes, if you had reported the performance to BMI. Although a whole penny might be optimistic.  “I played one of mine and didn't get royalties from it.” That's down to you. All of the PROs now have programs in place where artists can report their live performances and set lists, and get paid for shows in unsurveyed venues. The programs are ASCAP OnStage, BMI Live, and SESAC’s Live Performance Notification System. If you’re a member of one of these organizations and you aren’t using these programs yet, please check them out. You have a limited amount of time to input your live performances and get paid for them (between 3-6 months), so the sooner you get into the habit of reporting your live shows, the better. “The publisher should not be allowed to make more money on the song than the songwriter. Who's song is it anyway?” The split depends entirely on the contract between the writer and the publisher. Neither party has a gun to his head. (Except, of course, in the case of Don Corleone and Johnny Fontane) 
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@Notes: I like the way you think! I'd vote for your revisions to copyright law in a heartbeat!
@90db: you make excellent points, and almost certainly the information noted is news to most of us. Thanks for pointing out that by notifying the agencies of actual set lists, the correct artists can get paid instead of having the proceeds go into a general fund that only benefits an elite group
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Pat,
It's a bad system, to be sure. The big dogs get all the money. BMI,ASCAP. et al are a bunch of crooks. But then, so are the managers, booking agents, record companies, publishers,club owners and everyone else involved in the business.
The RIAA is the worst of the lot, but the indy world is changing all of that now. The people now have the technology, and that has the Mustache Petes running scared. There are artists making more money now marketing themselves than they ever would with a record deal.
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I don't see why the copyright laws can't follow patent laws and the "editions" section of the copyright laws - you have 25 years to make a buck then it goes into making the public domain richer - this in turn makes it possible for others to build on what has been created without onerous comliance requirements.
If I understand it correctly, this is exactly how copyright was first introduced, but the Walt Disney's and Sonny Bono's (and undoubtedly Sony/BMG's etc.) of the world managed to get it changed so they could continue making money. I understand this desire but causing it to happen makes a mockery of the original intent of copyright.
Thus the world ends up intellectually poorer instead of intellectually richer...
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Pat,
It's a bad system, to be sure. The big dogs get all the money. BMI,ASCAP. et al are a bunch of crooks. But then, so are the managers, booking agents, record companies, publishers,club owners and everyone else involved in the business.
The RIAA is the worst of the lot, but the indy world is changing all of that now. The people now have the technology, and that has the Mustache Petes running scared. There are artists making more money now marketing themselves than they ever would with a record deal. even artists who never would have had a shot at a record deal.. and that pleases me enormously! Yeah, there are ways in whcih these are dark times in the music business... but I honestly think there is opportunity in chaos. Now is a time when clever people are having good luck making a buck without getting any middlemen at all involved. I wish everybody would boycott BMI and ASCAP so they couldn't have the power to show up somewhere and forbid anyone to play our music without paying a fee to them... WE give them that power when we join their ranks
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You might feel differently if you were the owner of the copyright.
I have told several folks here on the forum, as well as around my neck of the woods they were free to perform my songs all they want, I just ask that they not be recorded for profit. Although I have allowed a few to profit when they ask.
The cover band, club owner, wait staff and everyone else making money at the venue are making money off the song.
The staff at the club and the owner would make money anyway in most cases, music is just an added incentive to come in. Some live venues don't draw enough people to even pay the band so the club fits the bill or they pay them in food or drinks or the band plays for free. Then they are expected to turn around and shell out for royalty rights. Not cool in any form or fashion. They also have to pay to have the place cleaned up after said show and in a lot of cases expensive repairs due to damage done during said show.
The song that the writer has written, demoed, pitched and contracted to a publisher who has re-demoed, produced, shopped, promoted and contracted to a record company, etc.
99% of songs produced do not even recoup the expense of producing them. The 1% that are “hits” sustain the entire industry. Should they be offered for free, when everyone else down the chain profits from them?
Free is exactly what they are when they are performed in a club setting. No one can buy a copy of it, It will only be heard on the nights it is performed. It in no way effects the singer or songwriter's pocket at all; and may in fact help the original artist. When I was in high school Elvis Presley passed away. I use to go around singing Elvis' version of Trying to Get to You from His final concert album, yes I said album LOL. Some of my buddies said "who sings that?" and subsequently went out and bought Elvis' final Concert album because they wanted to hear his version of the song; this was before the day of the download. So I know that sometimes performing a cover song helps the artist out,(as if Elvis needed my help LOL again) and it never hurts them.
There is a difference in performing something where the same group of people will never hear it again I.E. a cover song in a club setting where most won't even remember the groups name, little on the song's sang;
and mass producing CD's for sale. In the case of the CD an artist might do a copy that would effect another artist's version and pocket, this is the reason you very seldom see 2 artist in the same genre of music cover the same song for release in the same year. Artist 1 knows if artist 2's version explodes they may lose money. You will see a rock group and a pop or country group do the same song as they know their audiences are different anyway.
But if artist 1 only sings in a club while artist 2 is on the billboard charts artist 1 has not in anyway hurt artist 2's sales; but as in the Elvis example may actually help artist 2.
How many of you have performed some where and somebody ask "who sings that song?"
The law is the law, and should be followed, but just because it is law does not mean it is makes sense or is right. It used to be against the law to spit on the sidewalk.
My TunesPsalm 57:7 My heart, O God, is steadfast, my heart is steadfast; I will sing and make music.
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You might feel differently if you were the owner of the copyright.
I have told several folks here on the forum, as well as around my neck of the woods they were free to perform my songs all they want, I just ask that they not be recorded for profit. Although I have allowed a few to profit when they ask.
The cover band, club owner, wait staff and everyone else making money at the venue are making money off the song.
The staff at the club and the owner would make money anyway in most cases, music is just an added incentive to come in. Some live venues don't draw enough people to even pay the band so the club fits the bill or they pay them in food or drinks or the band plays for free. Then they are expected to turn around and shell out for royalty rights. Not cool in any form or fashion. They also have to pay to have the place cleaned up after said show and in a lot of cases expensive repairs due to damage done during said show.
The song that the writer has written, demoed, pitched and contracted to a publisher who has re-demoed, produced, shopped, promoted and contracted to a record company, etc.
99% of songs produced do not even recoup the expense of producing them. The 1% that are “hits” sustain the entire industry. Should they be offered for free, when everyone else down the chain profits from them?
Free is exactly what they are when they are performed in a club setting. No one can buy a copy of it, It will only be heard on the nights it is performed. It in no way effects the singer or songwriter's pocket at all; and may in fact help the original artist. When I was in high school Elvis Presley passed away. I use to go around singing Elvis' version of Trying to Get to You from His final concert album, yes I said album LOL. Some of my buddies said "who sings that?" and subsequently went out and bought Elvis' final Concert album because they wanted to hear his version of the song; this was before the day of the download. So I know that sometimes performing a cover song helps the artist out,(as if Elvis needed my help LOL again) and it never hurts them.
There is a difference in performing something where the same group of people will never hear it again I.E. a cover song in a club setting where most won't even remember the groups name, little on the song's sang;
and mass producing CD's for sale. In the case of the CD an artist might do a copy that would effect another artist's version and pocket, this is the reason you very seldom see 2 artist in the same genre of music cover the same song for release in the same year. Artist 1 knows if artist 2's version explodes they may lose money. You will see a rock group and a pop or country group do the same song as they know their audiences are different anyway.
But if artist 1 only sings in a club while artist 2 is on the billboard charts artist 1 has not in anyway hurt artist 2's sales; but as in the Elvis example may actually help artist 2.
How many of you have performed some where and somebody ask "who sings that song?"
The law is the law, and should be followed, but just because it is law does not mean it is makes sense or is right. It used to be against the law to spit on the sidewalk.
That was a very verbose defense of what is basically theft. “The staff at the club and the owner would make money anyway in most cases, music is just an added incentive to come in. Some live venues don't draw enough people to even pay the band so the club fits the bill or they pay them in food or drinks or the band plays for free. Then they are expected to turn around and shell out for royalty rights. Not cool in any form or fashion. They also have to pay to have the place cleaned up after said show and in a lot of cases expensive repairs due to damage done during said show.” Go to many clubs, Robert? Do you play in many? We're playing in a place tonight that has live music 7 nights a week. They have excellent food, but the live music is the draw. Without the live music, they wouldn't sell any food. Before you lament the “poor” club owner's plight, you might want to learn a bit about the business. Do you know what a bottle of Jack Daniels costs? Do you know how much money that one bottle generates when sold by the shot? Here is a bit of info on bar pricing: http://www.allaboutbarsinfo.com/how-to-price-a-drink/“Free is exactly what they are when they are performed in a club setting.” No, they are not 'free'. They are copyright-protected intellectual property; you know, as in “Thou Shalt Not Steal”.
Last edited by 90 dB; 06/09/14 03:23 AM. Reason: Link
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Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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