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I'm calling this a demo at this point because I can hear that it needs something 'more' to complete it but everything I have tried for the last few days detracts rather than builds the song. So I brought the song back several layers to where it sounds ok. I enjoy a challenge but it frustrates to be at the skill level that I can hear more but not have the talent/skill to find that right combination and also not be able to achieve that last bit of processing skill to polish it for a professional sound. Enjoy and all comments are appreciated https://soundcloud.com/charlie-fogle/from-you-to-me****** Song Summary ************* Title: From You To Me File:From You To Me.SGU Key=A , Tempo 75, Length (m:s)=3:35 Style is _MANPMGA.STY (PopCountry Ballad Mandolin [75RS]) RealTracks in style: 1827:Bass, Electric, PopModernGrooveA-B Ev16 075 RealTracks in style: 1839:Piano, Acoustic, Rhythm PopModernGrooveA-B Ev16 075 RealTracks in style: 1596:Guitar, Acoustic, Strumming Pop16ths Ev16 065 RealTracks in style: 1947:Mandolin, Rhythm PopModernGrooveAndy Ev16 075 RealTracks in song: 1167:Guitar, Electric, Soloist RockBalladBrent Ev 065 RealDrums in style: PopModernGrooveSync16^1-a:Snare on 4, HiHat , b:Snare, Ride Lyrics: Glowing like the sunrise fills the air like a mockingbird singing its tune Oh how your sweet love is engulfing me It brings a smile such a happy smile For it's not a dream coming over me This time it's true love from you to me (Instrumental break) Watch the clous floating through the air dancing and swirling everywhere across the sky That's how your sweet love is engulfing me It brings a smile such a happy smile For it's not a dream coming over me This time it's true love from you to me Me, Me, Me
Last edited by c_fogle; 10/17/14 05:49 AM.
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Charlie, That sounds like George Harrison in his "Indian days" and so I like the vibe, man! it needs something 'more' to complete it but everything I have tried for the last few days detracts rather than builds the song. I know the feeling! I reached this point recently on one song and wondered how to improve it. I then bounced the vocal,which was recorded in my DAW, to a "wav" file and imported that as the audio track into BIAB. SO now the song is in BIAB and I now can change the RT's and Real Drums whilst keeping tempo etc the same. I then experimented with RTs to make them match the vocals instead of the other way round. I kept the original file saved as "song" orig and saved the new working file as "song" new. Care has to be taken that both line up and the number of bars in the vocal wav and BIAB song are the same. I did this by adding a bar at the beginning of the BIAB song, and the vocal, so I knew they lined up and also set the value in the 1st box of the import dialogue to 1. Start here if all was recorded in BIAB !! My song was 4/4 and I even tried 3/4 tracks which added a "weird" but interesting feeling especially mixed with the 4/4 RTs. In fact I tried everything, Sw vs even, double and half time, until "that moment" of "OH YEH" arrived which took some time but was definitely worth it. I then dragged and dropped the new tracks back into the DAW and spliced and diced all the tracks. Actually in my example I got rid of all the original tracks and the song became SO different, but the same....if you see what I mean. I will post both versions of mine later so you can hear the difference. I found this method worked better than being stuck in the original idea as I could always revert and start again! Working against/with the vocal in place certainly made things a bit easier. One could always redo the vocal at the end if necessary. This would also work in Real Band but I struggle with that  and so I use BIAB and then Cubase SX but any DAW will do. I am away from my DAW at the moment so PM me or continue here and I will try and answer any questions by referring to the file and not from my old man memory!   Re the George Harrison vibe in his Indian days maybe, if the RT solo has the underlying midi file use that and try a sitar midi patch in a VSTi, soundfont or something like Coyote. I hope you understand what I have said. I did enjoy this version tho' Alyn
Last edited by gibson; 10/17/14 06:48 AM. Reason: trying to make it readeable
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Charlie,
I really like this! A lot!
The song is nicely written. Simple lyrics with a nuanced melody. What a sweet melody. There were a couple of places where I expected to go to a little different place, but it worked... as is...
Overall, it has a feel that reminds me of Gary Puckett and the Union Gap... or Grass Roots (ballads)... the Turtles.. that era (and the best of it...)
Your harmonies work really well. A couple spots in the main vocal you seem just a little "unsure" but..
Alyn's suggestions are interesting (everything Alyn does is interesting, so that's no surprise...).
I will take a different tact because... I happen to be in the middle of a production using the exact same style and instruments. I almost never use Styles and if I do, I typically change out at least half of the instruments. But I ended up using this one as is (sort of). It's quite cool. But... I found it "a little difficult" to get things where I wanted them - in ways that are not typical...
The mandolin is louder than I like as a rhythm instrument. The strum guitar is very soft - so you can barely hear it. The piano seems to have reverb on it even if you cut the reverb to 0. The drums are totally cool.
These points may be sort of "scattered" as they occur to me...
You seem to have a lot of reverb going on. Not sure it that is track by track or you added one to the final mix??
I think that may part of "that feeling" you have about the final outcome. I hear it on the drums. And the overall mix has a "distant" feel (just a little). Do you use Ozone? (it is a great addition to your tool chest). Anyway.. if you have a "final mix reverb" you might try taking that off...
For this type song, I think the vocal should be a little more "in the mix" than you have. Less "out front". Typically, that would mean add a little reverb to it, but in this case I'm thinking knock a dB or 2 off it (though I may be wrong - in the context of the mix).
It depends on what you want to feature as your rhythm instrument... but I would pull the mandolin down a hair..
If you want the acoustic guitar to help it out some, try using the "Increase Volume" in Studio One (right-click the track). I do that often on the acoustic guitar tracks - it works well...
I swapped the piano out for the MIDI SuperTrack of the same thing using the HiQ piano - to have more control over the reverb aspect of it. It is much "smoother" in its chord transitions, too.
1839:Piano, Acoustic, Rhythm PopModernGrooveA-B Ev16 075 <<< the RT
2101:Piano, Rhythm PopModernGrooveA-B Ev16 075 <<< the MIDI SuperTrack
Your piano seems to fit better than mine did (or does)
I have spent a lot of time getting the balance between the piano and mandolin where I want them.
Not sure why. It is something about this particular style.
Your guitar lead sits nicely in the mix.
For your song, I would try adding the Synth Pad that "goes with it"...
1842:Synth Pad, PopModernGrooveA-B Ev16 075
Seems like it would be PERFECT for this song. Use the Mellow version starting (maybe)) in the first chorus... let it continue in the 2nd verse... then switch to the High version for the last chorus (those are just ideas).
I don't think you need any more than that (if even that).
This is a cool song. I hope you get it to where you are happy with it...
floyd
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Hi Charlie,
I like this tune and I wouldn't change too much. Alyn is right with that Harrison vibe, and sitar is no bad idea.
But most of all the vocals need some tuning.
I'm curious what will come out.
Guenter
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HI Alyn. Thanks for such insightful input. I do understand your method as it's quite similar to the method I utilized working to revise and update older recordings and incorporate real tracks. It is a fun but can be a somewhat tedious process. Matching that particular groove of a song is the most challenging part for me. I found that starting the process in RealBand was best because it provided more variations to work with. I do look forward to hearing your versions and what you were able to accomplish.
Conceptually with this song, I've already captured that foundation vibe, I'm struggling with the supporting instrumentation and supporting vocals. I always think a song should build from verse to verse and swell at times to accentuate an emotional peak. That's what I feel is missing here.
I really appreciate you taking time to listen and provide such detail as you did.
Charlie
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Hi Floyd. Glad you like this tune. There is a bit of odd cadence to the way I wrote this song on guitar and this style intact closely complimented the feel to me.
I've reached this point in a scrambled sort of way of the recording process. The song structure was created in BIAB and exported as a stereo wave to serve as the vocal guide track in Studio One DAW. I recorded two complete vocal takes attempting to double the vocals. I did some corrective punch in's but was never satisfied with the result so I comped the two vocals into one vocal track. Then, I recorded one backing track. The only Fx was a vocal pre-set vocal male rnb that added compression and pro-eq. I lowered the compression a bit from the pre-set. I didn't do any fx on the music track in Studio One. I saved the comped vocal and backing track as stems and exited Studio One.
I imported the vocal and backing stems as well as the original Biab stereo wave into RealBand.
There, I generated TC Helicon tracks of the backing vocals after tweaking the backing vocal with melodyne.
The version of the song posted here was generated from these Realband tracks after levels set, tracks panned and... as you guessed, with a RB reverb Fx across the entire final mix. I settled on leaving the mandolin so prominently out front because the third or fourth regeneration of the track, I felt it really accentuated played off the drums quite nicely.
I had given serious thought to approaching you to see if you had any interest in collaborating on this particular song but did not think I had pre-planned and laid out a sufficient foundation. This all started as a journey to see if I could find a style that rhythmically fit with this song and I stumbled across one I think fits.
I plan to export the individual waves into Studio One today to work on a better mix. I'll probably also bring the TC Helicon Backing Vocals in to SA as well.
I do appreciate your input and expertise you offer to all of us here on the forum.
Charlie
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Hi Guenter. Thanks for listening and commenting. I totally agree with you about keeping the song as close to this version as possible. Not changing, but improving the performance and tweaking the vocal tuning. I'm thrilled at getting a George Harrison vibe from both you and Alyn. I've checked the lead guitar RT and it does not seem to have the midi info that the midi sitar could use. Maybe a change to a GH slide guitar sound???? We'll see.
Charlie
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Charlie, I also get the GH vibe and like it very much. A GH slide sound would be a good idea. I think if you work on the vocals a bit you will end up with a fine song. I would also pull back a bit on the mando, though it does work well with the drums. I also think a dreamy guitar would work well, don't know if there is one for that time signature. As mentioned earlier Ozone is a great tool for final polish. I enjoyed this one. Tom
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Hi Charlie, that's another nice one! I particularly like the style used here. To me it sounds more like a REM kind of style (in their 'Out of Time' days). I like the arrangement, lyrics are very nice, and the singing line. Backing vocal also works. One nit though: the lead vocal isn't always 100% in key. I believe I read somewhere else in one of your posts that you usually do the vocals at once. maybe it's an idea to do this step by step? I rarely record a vocal at once, step-by-step gives far better results for me. Another tip: there is a free voice pitch corrector called GSnap that sometimes works to get that harder tone just a little bit more in key. download link regards, Rob
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hi Charlie this is good everything very engaging thanks for sharing eric
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Hi Charlie,
I like this a lot. While strumming mandolins often make me think of Led Zep's acoustic stuff, this song somehow reminded me of Spirit, a great California 60's band (you might know "Nature's Way"). I can also hear the Harrison vibe. It has a lovely, gentle feel to it, nice melody, cool chord changes, nice mix.
Well done!
Thanks for sharing,
Bruce
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Charlie,
Very nice. Thanks for posting.
SD
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Major 7th goodness! I like! 
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Hi Tom, I appreciate your taking time to listen and share your thoughts. I'm just getting back around to play with the music some more tonight and apply some of the suggestions.
Charlie
Last edited by c_fogle; 10/18/14 09:27 PM.
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Hi Rob. Thanks for your assessment. I value your insight and counsel. I was fortunate to find this style after several hours of auditioning styles. I knew it was right for the song at the first bar. Unfortunately, I did not dedicate enough hours to the vocals. Truth be told, with most songs I write, the song is not intended to be sung by me. I pick some star vocalist and I write just as if they were to be the singer. The vocalist is normally chosen by the style, mood or feel of the song. This song arrangement was done with a female vocalist from here on the forum imagined as my vocalist. I shy'd away from approaching her to collaborate and ended up with my lead vocal. ;=(
The pitch issue is a legitimate criticism and I appreciate you providing the link to Gsnap and I've downloaded the software. I also already have Melodyne but did not use it on the lead vocal. As you noted, I usually complete a vocal track in one take and only correct and punch in obvious mistakes. I try working with the step method some to improve on the vocal tracks.
Thank for listening
Charlie
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F.M.M., Thanks for your kind comments and I'm glad you enjoyed the song.
Charlie
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Hi Bruce, thanks for commenting. I really liked the way the mandolin and drums mixed together in this style and felt it drove the song pretty much how it sounded in my mind. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Charlie
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Hello SD, thanks for listening and taking time to comment.
Charlie
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David, good ear and glad you like the song.
Charlie
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Hi Charlie,
I thoroughly enjoyed listening. The forum experts have given you some really valuable advice. When I read the help that some great people have sent your way, I couldn't help but think "What a terrific bit of the web we inhabit!"
All the best!
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
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Hi Charlie.
As Noel says, you've got lots of expert advice here, so it's difficult for me to add anything else.
What I can say is that I really liked the song.
I always find that one of the hardest things is deciding when a production is actually finished and there's this temptation to keep adding tracks which don't contribute anything. To me, your song sounds great as it is. Maybe try tweaking the mix a bit in line with some of the previous suggestions, but leave the arrangement alone. Different doesn't always equate to better.
ROG.
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Noel: Thanks for the listen. I can't agree more with you regarding the unselfish and gracious insight and knowledge the forum members are willing to share. It's amazing.
ROG: I appreciate your comments. The good part of the advice and analysis of the forum members so far is that the focus on the parts needing to be tweaked are pretty much agreed to by everyone. Vocals, reverb, the lead solo guitar choice and the mandolin volume level. They all seem to agree with your assessment the foundation, RT's and arrangement leaves an overall impression they like.
Don't anticipate having to make a complete overhaul or rework to reach my goal of finding the missing 'more' I have for this song. But a plan is materializing that will help make this song shine.
Charlie
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I think the 16th's mando is too busy
for your overall vibe which I like
a lot (and having coexisted for
decades with mandolins in different
bands I do like them - Janice plays
a bit on one).
I have learned from several helpful
folks here that stripping a song
down can often be the answer. Getting
to where there's nothing left to
take away rather than add. FWIW
my last three productions other
than vocals have only been 3-4
tracks.
Another thing, also in the FWIW department,
that I've learned a little about
is mastering software (thanks to
both floyd jane and tommyad).
I don't know where you are with it but
if you aren't using it you would find
that it is amazing how much it can
change the characteristic for a mix -
in both good and bad directions.
Having blathered all that it is really a
great melody and both of us
enjoyed the spin.
J&B
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Charlie this is almost perfect. I say almost as I agree with the others about your vocal being pitchy is area. I would use Melodyne as it is the best for pitch correction.
I really like the backing tracks, great job on that!
This is a great song and a little pitch correction would take it over the top for me!
I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"
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Hi J&B. I'm a big fan of mandolins too. A good friend, Jennings Chestnut from Conway, SC was a successful luthier and builder of his own line of mandolins, The Chestnut Mandolin. He was also responsible for bringing a large, successful bluegrass festival each May to Conway. I own a mandolin but can only play a few chords myself.
My intended use for the mandolin in this song was to standout as almost a solo instrument and contrast the staggered drum beats. I may need to audition some other mandolin styles.
I have Studio One Professional which has a Mastering Suite. I had been playing with this track for several days and realized it needs more than just polishing so it was not a candidate to be mastered at this stage.
I agree that Floyd and Tommy are both top notch at making their songs and the songs of folks they help sound very professional and finished. Floyd recently offered a considerable amount of detailed advice and counsel that really turned one of my songs around. There are many here on the forum that I have a great deal of respect for and this is the friendliest and most unselfish group I've come across on the internet.
This song will be reworked in a way I think will keep the sparse foundation and vibe but will hopefully give everyone a better quality performance.
Thanks for listening and commenting.
Charlie
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Mario D. I'm embarrassed to admit at this point but I used a bit of melodyne on the backing vocals but neglected to do anything with the lead vocal. I'm never pitch perfect but I think the problem this time resulted from me comping two lead vocal tracks into one track. The second track was an attempt to double the vocals which I did poorly and I'm guessing trying to closely follow the first track caused me to go flat in spots and some of the flat notes were comped into lead vocal comp. which was supposed to be the 'best' of both tracks. Well, I guess that didn't happen this time.
I'm glad you enjoyed the song and I have taken in all of the good advice and suggestions from my forum friends and hope to turn this into a passable composition.
Charlie
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I think it totally works as is!! Definitely retro. I think the solo guitar and sparse arrangement are perfect-wouldn't change a thing!! Take care. Greg
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Thanks for checking this out Greg. Appreciate your comments. I've experimented with slide guitars and some other acoustics for the solo but so far, I like the tone of the current one the best.
Charlie
BIAB Ultra Pak+ 2024:RB 2024, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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there are so many good new songs in the forum right now, I almost hate to bump an older song back to page one and force a newer entry to page 2... but I am anyway. As people keep commenting on the newer songs, it should naturally result in the newer songs floating back to page one.
Anyway, I want to weigh in IN FAVOR of the mandolin, exactly as used. Music is different things to different people. To some, it is a business. To some it is a hobby. To some it is an experiment. To some it may even be a lark.
But at one point or another, all of us approach music at a very grass-roots level where we begin with simple... sometimes primitive... sounds, and combine them into something pleasant. I must admit, you had me the moment I heard the mandolin intro. It struck me as the quintessential simple man's song. An idea spoken in conjunction with a chordal backing. I would have been OK with the song if it had been nothing more than the mandolin and your voice.
I liked the melody and the chord structure. As far as how you put it all together... those are "creative control" choices, and I am content to let the artist make his statement, then decide whether or not it pleases my ears. This DID please my ears.
And regarding the observations about vocal intonation: to me, the naturalness of your presentation enhanced the credibility of a song that I was already hearing as something that made no claim to be a studio production. It raises the question of whether or not more polish makes music better... or does it just make it more marketable?
Some music just needs to be honest, and to me this song was exactly that.
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Pat, you are too kind. You've given a humbling assessment and I am quite grateful you have taken time to listen, critique and revive this song. Thank you for the nice words. As for the mandolin, it totally captured the feel and sound I was looking for.
As for the vocals, there is only so much that can be done there. Think in terms of trying to maintain a 25 year old car driven continuously by a college student and never receiving any TLC or regular maintenance. That's my voice. However, I will admit greater care could have been taken by me to intonation in my cut and pasting between two vocal takes as I only achieved clarity to some words.
This was meant to be a simple, grass-roots level song and that somehow made it through to many here on the forum in spite of my vocal somersaults and mixing anomalies.
The somersaults and anomalies are being examined to see if they can be made to be less distracting to the song, letting the good parts still shine through.
Charlie
BIAB Ultra Pak+ 2024:RB 2024, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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Hi, Charlie !
I missed this during my absence
but now I found it and am glad
I did ! This is absolutely one
of your absolute best if not
the best !!!:)) Just great Charlie !!:))
Cheers
Dani
Last edited by dani48; 11/09/14 02:55 AM.
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Hi Charlie ...
we really enjoyed this. It's a little different but in a good way. The one thing I (Alan) noticed is the rhythm guitar could be noticeably louder. It gets lost in the mix most of the time. I'm of a slightly different opinion than most here about the reverb. It sounds fine to me ... and I try to go easy on the reverb (except Di's vocals ... she INSISTS on more reverb all the time!)
Isn't it amazing how difficult simplicity can be??!! i don't have any good "fixes" like several others have offered ... I'm usually the one who needs the help. Regardless, we thoroughly liked what we heard. Best to you ...
Alan & Di
BIAB 2024 Ultra Plus-all StylePaks*Win11*16GB DDR5*Rhyzen 9745x*AT 2035 Mic*Peavey Nashville 112 Amp*Ibanez ART120* Acoustic/Electric/Washburn D200S Acoustic*Stromberg Monterey Jazz Guitar Loops: https://aldavidmusic.wixsite.com/bestmusicloops
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Hi Al and Di. Thanks for checking in and your nice comments. Hope you guys are getting along good.
LOL, I just erased a three paragraph true story reply to you about the difficulty of simplicity and how that difficulty affected one of my songs from from a album published many years ago. The point of the story defined the difficulty being able to keep simple, as simple. Embellishment doesn't always work or is necessary. It's funny how things sometimes jog our memories.
Glad you enjoyed the song.
Charlie
BIAB Ultra Pak+ 2024:RB 2024, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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Thanks for listening and commenting Dani. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Charlie
BIAB Ultra Pak+ 2024:RB 2024, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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User Video: Next-Level AI Music Editing with ACE Studio and Band-in-a-Box®
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