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#279193 01/10/15 06:37 AM
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Can some of you experts out there provide some input on Melodyne in relation to how to use it with BIAB/RT? Is it user friendly?
Thanks,
Carolyne

Last edited by Carolyne; 01/10/15 06:38 AM.
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The version that you need for it to be useful (with the full editor), is expensive. It takes a while to learn it well - to be effective - it is not intuitive. You are a very good singer. You DO NOT NEED IT. That's my opinion, of course. If you have a few notes in a vocal track that aren't quite right, re-sing it. It takes far less time. Keep it real.

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I second Floyd's comment. I don't think you need it Carolyne.


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I got melodyne essential for $49 and I use it in Sonar, mainly on the backing and harmony vocals. I only got it because sonar's v-vocal always crashed on me.

I would love to have melodyne editor, but it is expensive (an on-sale upgrade from essential is around $149, though).

Wonderful tool, worth having in the arsenal.


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Yes... Melodyne is not cheap.... but it is the best out there for doing transparent pitch correction. You can keep it real while still getting pitch perfect or close....I often use ME to correct... but NOT perfectly. In Dust on the Floor, it was used on the vocals but there's a few notes that I actually needed to place at -10 cents rather than dead on the pitch. Used properly, you lose none of the emotion and add no artifacts and get a vocal track that sounds really good.



Most of the time... with a good singer such as yourself, the difference is not a major difference. However, if you're releasing the song or using it to demo, then you want it to be presented in the best light. As picky as my ears can be on pitch, the industry folks are often more discerning.

Even the best of singers can not hit every note perfectly. Rather than trying to punch record the flaws, ME lets you fix some pretty bad mistakes.... not only pitch, but timing issues, and vibrato....increase or decrease vibrato, as well as pitch drift. Some singers like to slide into a note.... or out of a note.... that can be fixed as well.

check your PM

Last edited by Guitarhacker; 01/10/15 10:03 AM.

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I use melodyne to correct vocals, it can also be used to make and effect sound on a vocal, or if someone has hit a sour note on an instrument it can be used to correct that. You can take your vocal and then raise or lower it to create very realistic harmonies. If you have any further questions, just send me a private message and i will try and help any way I can.


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Carolyne I have Melodyne Editor and would also be glad to help.

Although I do use Melodyne like Robert that is not my main use. I like to take audio files and convert them into MIDI. Meloldyne is the best audio to MIDI converter that I have found. Melodyne Essential does monophonic while the Editor does both monophonic and polyphonic.

It is really fascinating when you take a fingerpicked guitar part and have it sound like a zither! Or take a guitar chord and have it play as horns. Even take a string RT, convert it to MIDI then lower or raise it an octave, i.e. instant full string orchestra. Plus when using with some other RTs you do not need an expensive MIDI sound source. The options are endless.


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Creative on your uses there Mario. I recently picked up Essentials and got the $149 offer to upgrade to Editor. I'll probably pick it up just to have that polyphonic ability to convert to MIDI. I'm enjoying the capabilities currently provided on Essentials in mono.

P.S. - Carolyne, although most folks do not think you need it, the lower cost Essentials version would be good for you to tweak your vocal say if you were off a half step on one note for example. I think Sweetwater offers that version for $69.




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The less you have to use it the better it is. But either way it is a good tool to have.


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I have never used melodyne editor in the way Mario mentions... using it to convert audio to midi. I know it can do that but I've personally never used it that way. There are other ways it can be used and I don't use it that way either.

People who say that a singer, no matter how good doesn't need some pitch correction now and then ...well... I won't address that here.

OK granted, back in the early days, the Beatles for example didn't have the advantage of using Melodyne....however, you can find stories of how they literally worked for days on end to get the vocal track to ONE, two minute and thirty second song right. Paul and John would double track their vocals and get them exact and pitch perfect.... but it took them dozens of hours to do that.

I don't think there's a single vocalist artist today who doesn't use ME or something else to correct their vocals in the studio. None of them have the time or the work ethic to spend the time that the Lads from Liverpool did.

So for us non-professionals who don't sing for a living..... ME is the perfect tool to use to fix vocal tracks and other tracks....I use this on bass, piano, guitar, sax, and just about anything else that needs it.

Using it means the difference between having a vocal track that sounds like a home bedroom/living room recording and something that might have been recorded professionally.

For the price of Melodyne Essentials.... if the only thing is does is pitch and timing.... it's worth every dime because while I have the full blown Editor version, I mainly use the pitch and timing editing functions. On occasion I go full poly mode.

Buy it and buy a good DAW that lets you edit easily. 2 essential tools to have for the serious home recording enthusiast.


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Caroline,

I'm going to weigh in on the opinion that the learning curve is NOT that bad. If you have ever edited MIDI notes in piano roll, it works exactly the same way.

You can use it at a very simple level to fix timing problems, pitch problems or to shorten or elongate notes.

The cheapest version of melodyne can do what I just described.
The more expensive versions are capable of more... and that's also where the real learning curve begins.


Even if you aren't using it to pitch correct bad vocals, as an audio editor it has no rival. You can use it to clean up a track in ways other audio editors could not. I see it as a "must have" tool for anybody who is serious about home recording.



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regarding your question about using it with RealBand:

Melodyne opens seamlessly inside some DAWs to allow track editing without leaving the DAW. Real Band doesn't interface with Melodyne that way.

In order to use Melodyne with RB, you'll have to export your track as a WAV, open it in Melodyne, make your edits, save the new version, then replace the old track in RB with the new track.

If you are using ASIO in RB, you'll probably want to close RB entirely before you open Melodyne, because unless Melodyne is running ASIO, its very hard to tell which note is making which sound.

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Well, I certainly didn’t mean to start a firestorm with the Melodyne. I think I can make it easy for everyone. I have been a professional singer for more than thirty years, and have been blessed to have worked with some of the best musicians, on the San Francisco hotel and country club circuits, and throughout Central California. While singing is not new to me; writing, recording, mixing and mastering are. While I certainly don’t consider myself a bad singer, my lying ears tell me that I have a tendency to sometimes sing a quarter tone flat. So pervasive is this tendency, that it has almost become a trademark. To some extent it identifies me as a stylist, so I have no desire to have perfectly altered vocals.
If I recorded a song in a professional studio, and the technician did not edit my vocals so I would sound my best self, he or she would be fired. My musician friends tell me the only jazz singer they knew to have perfect pitch was Ella Fitzgerald. In fact, they say the band actually tuned their instruments to her voice. Until such time as I can sing like Ella, which won’t be during my Earthly life, I’ll use whatever I can to show me at my best. I intend to invest in some version of Melodyne. Because I ‘m not sure of my technical ability to use it however, those of you who have encouraged me should be warned that I’m going to be on this forum daily asking for help. (LOL!)
I appreciate all of the comments, encouragement, and support received, and I’m honored to be part of this forum.

Best to all,
Carolyne

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Originally Posted By: Pat Marr
regarding your question about using it with RealBand:

Melodyne opens seamlessly inside some DAWs to allow track editing without leaving the DAW. Real Band doesn't interface with Melodyne that way.

In order to use Melodyne with RB, you'll have to export your track as a WAV, open it in Melodyne, make your edits, save the new version, then replace the old track in RB with the new track.

If you are using ASIO in RB, you'll probably want to close RB entirely before you open Melodyne, because unless Melodyne is running ASIO, its very hard to tell which note is making which sound.


This was really good info. I don't use ASIO I use MME. Does that make a difference? Thanks
-Carolyne

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Carolyne, this isn't a firestorm in any way shape or form. It's educational. Talking and listening to others is how you learn.

I'm going to agree with Pat Marr in saying that the learning curve with Melodyne when you use it to pitch correct is very short. I believe I was fixing vocals in about 10 minutes after I had it installed for the first time. It's that easy to use. The thing is that Essential is always upgradeable as needs increase.

Once you know how to work with it... using it is a piece of cake and you can see at a quick glance if a note is on or off pitch. The staff there call the notes "blobs" and the software lets you move them around. Simply click and drag or edit by typing in the numbers. Not only can you edit the pitch.... you can also edit the vibrato levels and fix notes that are in other ways, not right. Kinda hard to describe it but I know it when I hear it and it can be fixed. If you came in early or late, it's fixable too.

The best thing about Melodyne is that it can be totally transparent. For example..... can you hear anywhere in the track I returned to you the artifacts of where pitch correction was used? My guess would be that you can not. Considering that it was working with stereo tracks.... I should have converted to mono first but didn't (my mistake). About the artifacts, I don't think you can tell where I corrected.

It's also one thing to say you sing with character and finesse. It's another to say that singing flat is a trademark. I think if you started putting your vocals on pitch in the places that count....and leave it flat in a few places where it adds character.... there will not be any repercussions from the other musicians you work with. In fact I'd wager the reaction might even be the opposite. I think you'd get complimented on the vox.

Singers tend to use 2 or 3 things.... They say, I sing that way because it adds character.... or they use excess vibrato to cover the off pitch factor. Neither of those are good things for a singer to do....and trust me when I tell you, I used both on my own singing. Noobs in recording also use excessive FX to try to make their singing sound better. None of those are valid excuses or practices IMHO.

On the vocal track I worked on for you, I did not fix everything. I went through and fixed the important notes.... the ones that really needed to be on pitch. Other places I left it a bit flat. Some notes where a full half step or more flat. Some of the notes, when I corrected it to pitch did NOT sound good.... go figure that one out.... so using melodyne's precise editing function, I simply entered the pitch cents that I wanted to flatten the note. A minus 20 cents, while not on pitch, in fact sounded the best to my ears. So I left a bunch of notes...I think I did that in 4 or 5 places. I also used ME to lessen the vibrato in a few places where it was excessively strong.... Placing the note on pitch and lessening the vibrato was a major improvement on the places where I did it.


REQUEST: It would be interesting if you would put 2 links up. Link to the original song...smooth jazz like you first posted....and then also the same smooth jazz version with the corrected vocal track I sent back to you. That way, folks who wanted to compare them and hear what was done could A/B them both. Trying to compare the jazz version with the country version is not a good way to hear the difference in the vocal track since the BGM distracts.

Of course.... keep in mind... the changes I made to this track were based on WHAT I THOUGHT would be an improvement to the track. 10 other people would have done it 10 different ways.....

Last edited by Guitarhacker; 01/17/15 12:45 PM.

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Hmmmmm....I've followed this with some interest and obviously, at least to me, some good points have been made. I gather that some folks are of the notion that ALL vocals need "fixing" to greater and lesser degrees.

I don't have a lot of guitar or bass (my instrument) hot chops but I do have a pretty good ear for pitch. Sure before this technology was available a lot of singers did many takes to get it "right;" however, before sound on sound and from what I've researched mutiple takes were much less common. Listen to some of the big band singers from the 1930's-1940's -- wanna "fix" their vocals? I damn sure don't. Go back a little further and listen to blues and jazz. I have ZERO problems with Billie Holiday and many others. So much of what I define as soul in singing is essentially a lot of the little nuances, the sometimes ever so slight roughness around the edges, the subtle characteristics that technically might some require "fixing" to some producers. One of our favorite singers said that he didn't care so much about the genre but whether not the singer had soul. I think it would be pretty easy to "fix" away all the soul in a vocal.

To get it closer to home. Janice is what back in our bluegrass days we called a "bent note" singer. it's the way she sings and she sings hardly one bar over the same way. We've never double tracked -- that might be interesting given what I just pointed out! She's always moving notes around -- maybe to some ears she stops too soon or too late when she lands the note. What I hear is, well, her style. I couldn't imaging attempting to "fix" her vocals no matter how subtle the "needed" changes might be.

Perhaps melody might take it out of our music room onto the next tier, level or whatever. But we simply don't want to go there. Pardon the ole phart ramble and zero offense meant to folks who differ.

Incoming!!

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Originally Posted By: Janice & Bud
Hmmmmm....I've followed this with some interest and obviously, at least to me, some good points have been made. I gather that some folks are of the notion that ALL vocals need "fixing" to greater and lesser degrees.

I don't have a lot of guitar or bass (my instrument) hot chops but I do have a pretty good ear for pitch. Sure before this technology was available a lot of singers did many takes to get it "right;" however, before sound on sound and from what I've researched mutiple takes were much less common. Listen to some of the big band singers from the 1930's-1940's -- wanna "fix" their vocals? I damn sure don't. Go back a little further and listen to blues and jazz. I have ZERO problems with Billie Holiday and many others. So much of what I define as soul in singing is essentially a lot of the little nuances, the sometimes ever so slight roughness around the edges, the subtle characteristics that technically might to some require "fixing." One of our favorite singers said that he didn't care so much about the genre but whether not the singer had soul. I think it would be pretty easy to "fix" away soul.

To get it closer to home. Janice is what back in our bluegrass days we called a "bent note" singer. it's the way she sings and she sings hardly one bar over the same way. We've never double tracked -- that might be interesting given what I just pointed out! She's always moving notes around -- maybe to some ears she stops too soon or too late when she lands the note. What I hear is, well, her style. I couldn't imaging attempting to "fix" her vocals no matter how subtle the "needed" changes might be.

Perhaps that might take it out of our music room on the next tier, level or whatever. But I simply don't want to go there. Pardon the ole phart ramble and zero offense meant to folks who differ.

Incoming!!


Well I agree with this. What you say is actually the point I think I didn't make well. I certainly don't want to be known as a singer that sings flat. But the reality is, I do "bend the notes", always have. In live performances you can get away with a lot of note bending and other infractions. Recordings...not so much. I have come to accept the character of my vocals which sets me apart from others. However, some things like a heavier vibrato, accentuated by age, is also a problem. The use of any tool that allows me to clean up vocals on recordings is no different than using spellcheck to clean up documents.
On another NOTE (gag) I like what I'm learning from this forum.
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The best analogy I can come up with at the moment in this is that Pitch fixing is to singing as mastering is to mixes, or to use another area of the arts...... as Photoshop is to a makeup model's appearance.


Do you need to pitch fix? Do you need to master a mix? Absolutely not in both cases. However, when both or either are used, there is a notable improvement in the overall quality of the mix and the performance.

Of course, that's only my opinion. Whether someone wants to use the technology available today or not is totally up to them. Everyone has heard a normal unprocessed mix.... drab, ordinary, in an OK sort of way... but pop in some EQ, some compression, some reverb and WOW!!!! What a difference.

It was mentioned about some of the big bands and the singers of that time. I don't think mutlitrack recording was in use that that time. As I recall the Beatles were innovators into the multitrack world, recording Sgt Pepper on a 4 track tape machine. Considered really high tech at the time. In the days of the big bands, there were no "lets overdub the vocals" discussions in the studios. One take...one shot....one chance to get it right. Of course, they could always run it again on some new tape and do multiple takes.... but all the musicians had to preform perfectly every time.

I like the comparison to a spellchecker.... yes, these are simply tools that are there to be used by those who wish to do so.

I wouldn't necessarily say that all vocals NEED fixing but I will say that in every vocal track, you can always find something that could be fixed. It's up to the individual at the board to decide.
I'll also say this..... with every vocal track that has come to my studio, yes, there are things that need to be fixed to one degree or another. And I've had some really good singers send me tracks. But again.... what gets fixed and what doesn't is totally, 100% subjective and in the ears of the person listening as to what needs it and what gets it. I think there was only one track that ever came in that I didn't need to fix..... because the studio where it was recorded did the fixing. (I asked if was fixed because it was really really good,,,, the answer was yes)

The only time I would not use it would be if someone asked me specifically not to.....then I'd probably still use it but swear I didn't. "dude, your vocals are THAT good..."

Interesting discussion. Yeah there's folks all over the board on this. You have folks like me who are somewhere in the middle.... use it appropriately, while you have others on both ends of the spectrum.... die hard gotta use it to excess...and purists who say it's the 8th cardinal sin.

To me, it's a tool, like any other in my tool box, to be used at the proper time and in the proper way. I want people to listen to the track and simply say, WOW!!! that singer can sure enough sing.


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I'll add that the human ear is not as good at detecting deviation as is technology.

Here's a challenge to anybody who has Melodyne:

Take a vocal track you think is pretty good. Export it to Melodyne, and compare your sung notes to the grid. I think even a good singer will be surprised to visually confront the difference between the note they sang and the note they THOUGHT they sang.

What's more enlightening is that the deviations go in both directions.. some flat, some sharp.

Whether or not you choose to correct anything is still a personal choice. But it can be enlightening to see what you're really asking the listener to accept.

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Originally Posted By: Carolyne
Originally Posted By: Pat Marr

If you are using ASIO in RB, you'll probably want to close RB entirely before you open Melodyne, because unless Melodyne is running ASIO, its very hard to tell which note is making which sound.


This was really good info. I don't use ASIO I use MME. Does that make a difference? Thanks
-Carolyne


Carolyne,
you can use Melodyne without using ASIO... you just have to change your approach a little bit.

There are a couple of ways to use Melodyne... One way is to click a single button to let Melodyne decide where the notes need to be. When the notes are pretty close to where they need to be, this works great.

But if they are off more than a certain amount, Melodyne may snap the note to the wrong place... and if it happens several times over the whole project, it can really throw you for a loop (also if it happens, it gives you some idea how far off the notes really were!)

Upshot is, if you can't use automatic correction, you have to correct the worst notes manually by clicking on them. If you are using ASIO drivers, as you play the song, the "NOW" line will line up with the notes as they are being played so you can see and hear simultaneously which notes need to be fixed.

If you don't use ASIO, there will be a time mismatch between the "now" line and the note being played, and you'll have to find another way to discern which notes offend your hearing.

Perhaps the best way is by visually comparing the note to the grid. If the blob is not centered in the gridlines, it's probably flat or sharp. So, if you use MME, you can still use Melodyne, although you'll end up working to visual cues more than by following your ear.

does that make sense?


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Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!

With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!

Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!

If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.

A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."

"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."

"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."

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