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At what point do you consider someone to have "sold out" in the music industry? I always need to clarify with this bunch  ...I don't mean a "sold out show."
Last edited by HearToLearn; 06/11/15 05:12 AM.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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I'd like to pose another question. Is there even such a thing?
There are successful artists, and then, there's all the rest. I think the expression "sell out" is more about the jealousy of the ones who haven't been nearly as successful.
For example, are the crop of country artists, especially the guys classified as "bro country" sellouts or have they found a successful formula and are simply riding the wave and making money like any other good businessman would do regardless of the line of business?
That's my take on the expression "sell out" in referring to a musician, in a nut shell. Obviously more could be said and written but that suffices for now.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Interesting question, as always Caaron!
I think this is directly related to one of the recurring unresolved discussion here on the forum. Are you an original artist? Or a performer?
Usually someone gets called a "sellout" if he/she first cultivates the reputation of an original thinker/ starving artist, then later moves wholeheartedly into the commercial realm of "performer"... because their success allows it.
But some people are wholeheartedly "performers" from the beginning.
At a more grass roots level, (speaking of people like myself, hometown musicians etc) it has been my experience that the people who see themselves as artists who play by their own rules and don't care what the public likes... those people don't tend to gig nearly as much as the people who play to the audience. Is that a sell out? Everybody has to decide that one for him/herself. My personal choice is to play for the audience.
Having said that, however... the rules change at the pro level. At the pro level you have to be commercial to pay for the enormous costs of existing in that world.
And there is another pro group, the people who tend to play at places like Merlefest. There I saw a lot of old musicians who had spent their entire lives playing music that wasn't mainstream. In order to do so, they lived modest lives and basically gigged small spots the whole time. They built their reputation mostly by keeping their name on marquees for 40 years. Most of them are not well off, but they are playing whatever music they like.
I admire this group for their tenacity. In my opinion, they have earned the respect they now get at music festivals. They typically wear blue jeans instead of sequins, and their egos are sometimes on par with those of international stars... the main difference is that they are still approachable. After they perform, they go out in the crowd and watch with everybody else. I think there are a lot of people on this forum who fall in this category.
I don't know if any of this addresses your original question... and I'm not sure there is a universal answer to it. I see it as a highly subjective and largely unnecessary distinction to make
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When this comes from a musician, I'd say the term is just sour grapes coming from those who have not had the level of success as those they are criticizing. When it comes from fans it is just a lazy way of saying "I liked your other stuff better so why didn't you keep making that stuff?" But of course, when you stick with your formula, those same fans will be quick to say "your new album sounds too much like your last album!"
If someone plays only what they want to play and refuses to change even when there is the possibility of commercial success then that is fine...for them. On the other hand, if someone is playing their favorite bluegrass and a record guy hears them, is impressed with their technical ability and offers them a chance to record some hip hop and the band decides to go for it because it might get them the break they need, again that is just fine.
There is no "selling out". Only doing what you like for whatever reason you want to do it!
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The phrase "sold out" presupposes that there is some sort of integrity in the music business. I've never known a musician who wouldn't "sell out" if the opportunity presented itself. Musicians are, after all, the worlds Second Oldest Profession.
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Interesting question, as always Caaron!
They typically wear blue jeans instead of sequins, and their egos are sometimes on par with those of international stars... speaking of which.... when do you plan to return my gold lame' jumpsuit, the one with the sequins on it and rhinestones up the legs..... that you "borrowed" from me.....? And don't tell me you let Floyd borrow it.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 06/11/15 08:58 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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My VERY unpopular opinion is that when you perform music that you hate for people that you hate just to make money, and are really sick of playing AT ALL anymore, then you are selling out. Why do you want to do something you hate? Be that something music, plumbing, carpentry, auto mechanic work, street paving, shelf stocking or litigation.... why? The next comment I expect to hear is "I do it because I love it." Well, then you don't fit the criteria my reply was based on, so keep on doing it. You are not a sell out. This is the main reason I am quite unpopular with the music community, tempered by the fact that I am rather tactless and tell them how I feel about things in very direct terms. Now I know what you're saying..... "Tactless? Direct? YOU??"
Last edited by eddie1261; 06/11/15 11:57 AM.
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My VERY unpopular opinion is that when you perform music that you hate for people that you hate just to make money, and are really sick of playing AT ALL anymore, then you are selling out. Why do you want to do something you hate? Be that something music, plumbing, carpentry, auto mechanic work, street paving, shelf stocking or litigation.... why?
Survival comes to mind... I've spent the last 30 years in IT. At first I loved it, getting paid to indulge in my favourite hobby  However, over the last 7 or 8 years I've come to hate it, but for a variety of reasons I couldn't just walk away. Probably the main reason was that I needed to eat, and I really didn't know anything else. Survival, not selling out, just surviving and supporting my wife (kids had grown up and left home - except the "boomerang boy" but he supports himself). Now, I am out - no job, no passion, no idea for another business and no social security, despite having paid taxes for the last 40 years, running a business that's paid taxes for the last 22 years and hiring staff who also paid taxes for the last 20 years...
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya  --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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International singing star Julio Iglesias has released millon selling records singing songs in Spanish, Italin, French, Portuguese, German and other languages.
He began to sing songs in English after moving to the United States in 1979. To help introduce him to the US market the 1984 album, "1100 Bel Air Place", included duets with Willie Nelson and Diana Ross. The Beach Boys also provided backing vocals on a song. At the time the album caused some media excitement and added to his formiable collection of millon seller hits.
Did Willie, Diana and the Beach Boys sell out? I think they did in this instance as I think their motivation was to help themselves by doing their recording label's bidding. What helps the record label helps me.
On the other hand take other "odd at first thought" pairings such as the Tony Bennent / Lady Gaga collaboration or the Robert Plaint / Alison Krauss. I don't know of any underlying ulterior motive.
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And here we go again, comparing major, multi millionaire stars with the guy playing Cheeseburger in Paradise for drunks at the corner bar. What anybody major does is playtime for them. They have more money than they can spend. That is FAR different from scrambling to find a way to gas your car and feed your kids, is it not? Did the Beach Boys really sing behind that guy for the money? Really? The Beach Boys are 237 years old and bored with their millions. Didn't we once do this comparing Joe Corner Bar Musician to Sinatra because Sinatra did "covers" too and didn't write? Really? Sinatra and some local chump go in the same sentence? Everybody is in a different situation. I really don't care if I ever play live on stage again. That is just me. I don't need the money. I am far from wealthy, but my retirement funding is plenty to live on if I don't make a major purchase. So if I DO ever play again (nice little blues band in rehearsal stage now) it won't be because I have to. It will be because I want to. That is a not so subtle difference. The band will play music we want to play, not songs that we "have" to play because "but the crowd LOVES that song". Because they love that song does not mean they will not like other songs and throw garbage if we don't play Stairway to Freebird. Playing Stairway To Freebird when you hate it is selling out. I worked in IT as well after I retired from playing music full time. Music got to be a job so I got out of it. IT got to be a job so I got out of it. My "roaming fever" cycle seems to be about 8-10 years. Then the new wears off and I move on to something new. My "roaming fever" cycle for relationships is short, like less than 6 months. I lose interest in it and move on. Staying with a woman who does not make you happy is the relationship version of selling out. Working a job that does not make you happy is selling out. Playing music that does not make you happy is the musical version of selling out. Don't worry, be happy. It took a near fatal car accident for me to realize that the old cliche about life being too short is not a cliche. I will never spend a day miserable again. I don't want my last day on earth to be miserable. (I may, however, make it miserable for OTHERS... )
Last edited by eddie1261; 06/11/15 02:50 PM.
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I suppose all of the baroque, classical and romantic era composers that were commissioned to compose were also sellouts. Someone up above described sour grapes as the source of the term. I think that's spot on.
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For example, are the crop of country artists, especially the guys classified as "bro country" sellouts or have they found a successful formula and are simply riding the wave and making money like any other good businessman would do regardless of the line of business? Herb, if they hate what they are doing, then yes, they are sellouts. If it's people who spent their whole life taking smack about how country music is nothing but musicians who aren't good enough to play rock, and then they play country music because it's the current money making rage, then yes, they have sold out. When money is your ONLY, and that is key that you notice the word ONLY, motivation for playing to the point that you play music that you despise so much that you don't even like hearing it by accident on the grocery store Muzak feed, you have sold out. Like today, I accidentally got some Stevie Nicks in my ears. Though with that voice like a sheep, she DID make me hungry for lamb.... I give much credit to bands who stick with their dream and play original music for the door. Those are the players who are truly in it for the music. I will go see THAT band before I go see one of those bands that plays the same 45 songs as every other band. Also know that this is situational, too. As an old man I think differently than I did when I was young. As someone who does not make a living with music, I think differently than those who do. If you love what you are doing, and don't grouse about moving equipment in and out of bars every night, loading in and out of your car, out of your car into your house.... god bless you. When I stopped not grousing about that stuff, that's when music became a job and I didn't like it anymore. To continue past that point, I would have considered myself to be a sellout. In an earlier post, I made mention of how people can sell out in every aspect of life. When I married the 3rd wife, I did it because she was somewhat of a local celebrity that made a lot of money and had a nice home. She was the meanest human being I have known in a life that will have lasted 64 years in 2 weeks. I took her abuse for 4 1/2 years. Then I realized that I had sold out and didn't like myself. I knew how to fix that, which moved me on to why I now call her ex wife #3. You have to be happy and comfortable in your own skin. I was not. Usual disclaimer. This is my opinion. You are allowed to have yours just like I am allowed to have mine.
Last edited by eddie1261; 06/11/15 06:01 PM.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
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So I wander if in my situation I am a sellout. I am business analyst. I write the specifications for business software. It is a skill that is very much in demand and I can earn more in one day doing this than I can earn in many moons of playing gigs and selling CDs.
It is not something I hate but I would far spend time writing, recording and performing music. Wouldn't it be selfish of me to spend all my time on music, earning next-to-nothing to contribute to the family pot?
It is a quandary indeed.....
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I agree with Eddie's view of a sellout.
I played in wedding bands virtually all of my adult life, a weekend warrior. Although there were some songs that I hated to play I did enjoy the gigs. Some people called me a sellout because I played in wedding bands for the money, you can make a lot more money per weekend playing weddings than bars. BUT I did enjoy playing most all of the songs and more importantly making my customers happy.
Like Josie I was making a lot of money in regular job. I was happy in my research job for about 30 of the 39 years of employment so by Eddie's definition I sold out for the last nine years. However I had a family to feed, and a mortgage to pay so I guess I sold out for my family and that to me was more important than music, in fact it still is more important than music.
This is just me and your situations may be different.
I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"
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Interesting question, as always Caaron!
They typically wear blue jeans instead of sequins, and their egos are sometimes on par with those of international stars... speaking of which.... when do you plan to return my gold lame' jumpsuit, the one with the sequins on it and rhinestones up the legs..... that you "borrowed" from me.....? And don't tell me you let Floyd borrow it. Never lend your sequins to somebody who has sold out! They got no class... they got no principles... they can't even think up a word that rhymes translation: "it's MY gold lame' sequined & rhinestoned jumpsuit now!! Bwa-hahahhaa" Let this be a lesson to you all. 
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The phrase "sold out" presupposes that there is some sort of integrity in the music business. I've never known a musician who wouldn't "sell out" if the opportunity presented itself. Musicians are, after all, the worlds Second Oldest Profession. This is a pretty good summary! especially regarding the business. But especially in the early days of radio when a lot of music acts started out playing gospel songs, the public probably believed the artists had their own integrity. The term "selling out" may have originated with gospel artists switching over to secular music... (ie. "selling their soul to the devil" for fame and fortune)
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Musicians are, after all, the worlds Second Oldest Profession. I disagree. Musicians are the the world's FIRST oldest profession. See? Even THERE I prefer originals.... 
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
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What is a sell out?
Contracted work?
Beethoven, Mozart, Tchaikovsky and so many others did work for hire to please their benefactors. George Benson sang some pop songs in the 1970s. Michael Brecker played on Paul Simon songs, Kenny G made a zillion dollars playing sappy ballads (and he played some very good stuff with Lorber's Fusion).
If I hire an artist to paint a portrait of my wife, is the artist a sell out?
Is the person who loves and takes wildlife pictures but makes his/her living doing weddings a sell out?
Define sell out.
I don't believe in the term sell out.
Is playing what your audience wants to hear selling out? If that's the case, the New York Philharmonic Orchestra is a sell out.
I play "Cheeseburger", "Caroline", "Brown Eyed", "Yakety", "Mustang", and other pop songs and enjoy it. I also mix in more challenging songs for myself and love them too. I love my audience, they are like extended family to me.
I like putting on many musical hats. I can play some Rock, follow it with some Reggae, then some Salsa, then some Country, then some Jazz, then some Pop, then some Disco and get my head around each genre to put out the very specific expression that each style of music requires.
I love it all. When pick up one of my instruments and put the mic in front of my mouth, I go into that place where there is no space or time. I have a partnership with my duo-mate and we have a dialog with the audience. It's play time and it always ends too soon. And we play what the audience wants to hear. Are we selling out?
I could be happy conducting a symphony orchestra too or playing sax in a jazz band. But I don't think I could make a living doing that.
Eddie made a good point about hating what you are doing.
If you hate playing music, why do it? There are other jobs you can hate just as much and get sick leave, vacation pay, paid holidays, employer contributions to your social security, and perhaps even a pension. You can hate working in a factory, you can hate being a clerk in a retail store, you can hate installing cable TV connections. There are plenty of ways to hate your job that provide more than music does in the field of money and benefits.
I knew a guy who played excellent jazz guitar. Jazz is a small market here, so he played one day a week while he worked a day job that he hated for his father-in-law to pay the bills. Is that a sell out? I'd rather play "Free Bird".
I had an opportunity to meet Chet Atkins many years ago. He told me that he really would have loved to play jazz, but country made him a fine living. Was Chet a sell out?
Years ago I read an article in the trades about Nashville musicians, and the quote was, "Don't let the suits know you are secretly into jazz because they really believe in this stuff."
So I'll take Eddie's point seriously. If someone is playing music and hating it, I won't call him/her a sell-out, I'd call him/her stupid.
In my opinion, anyone who is playing music and enjoying it is not selling out, no matter how popular the music is or no matter how much money he/she is making doing it.
Of course YMMV.
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Wow! So many great answers! I'm surprised, it seems we are all mostly on the same page. I honestly didn't expect that.
To me, and this has pretty much been said, it comes down to do you enjoy the majority of what you are doing when you do it. If you don't enjoy it, but you do it for other reasons, that's a sell out.
I agree that most people that use the term are typically jealous on some level...and/or have to rationalize why they aren't in that position themselves.
A sell out doesn't have to be just money either. I know people who sell out to fame, or to impress others...sometimes trying to impress other musicians. I think it's where the term "guilty pleasure" comes from to a point. If you like a song, but don't want to admit it to your "musician" friends because of what they think...I personally believe you are selling out. Just be yourself. If they don't like you for something that trivial, what kind of friend is that, or why the heck would you want to impress them?
I could go on...and maybe will later; but I think you all have said it better than I would.
I think it's great to have a conversation like this! It shows the strength of the community.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
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I don't believe in the term sell out.
In my opinion, anyone who is playing music and enjoying it is not selling out, no matter how popular the music is or no matter how much money he/she is making doing it.
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Well said my friend.
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Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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