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Hi folks,
Just wondering for those that add mastering do you usually do it before you export the mixdown or do you reopen the final mixdown file and then add mastering?
For some reason or other I find that the sound is brighter within the DAW, so I add mastering just before final mixdown.
1 Just wonder what do you prefer?
2 As the mix always sound better to me from within the DAW compared to the micdown does that imply that there is a certain loss of quality when a file is mixed down to cd quality?
Thanks for your advice.
Musiclover
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I write in BB
I create the tracks in RB
I mix and master in Sonar
Essentially, I insert the mastering plugs into the Sonar (X1) project at the beginning and tweak as I progress through the project. I start working with the end in mind, right from the start.
Once the tracks are in place and the envelopes for automation are in place, I concentrate on tweaking the final mixing.
What I end up exporting from X1 is (hopefully) a finished project. I call is "small "m" mastering" because Mastering is done to a group of songs so that they become cohesive, and what I'm doing is sweetening and polishing the rough edges off of one song.
Of course, this is but one way to accomplish it.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 06/18/15 03:34 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I'm in Herb's team (pretty much the same)
I start the song with BiaB.
Often take it into Real Band for tweaking instruments as a middle step. Maybe adding more instruments, etc
Then take it as individual dry tracks into Sonar Platinum for final mixing, compression, effects etc.
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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Great advice chaps, different ways to do it. I have Ozone 5 and usually at the end go around the presets to try and get a good fitting one, so probably in my case not a great idea to have an active Ozone in project from start of project. I suppose I could have all of its plugins bypassed but I have a niggling suspicion that even a loaded bypassed plugin can sometimes introduce noise into the mix.
Getting a little more particular now with Ozone and starting to experiment with the actual plugins other than just presets.
Sometimes I find the less the better.
Thanks again
Musiclover
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Ozone is too processor intensive to have on multiple tracks in a project while mixing. They make Alloy for that. Save Ozone for a final stereo file. Tip: Ozone 5 is better than 6.
As mentioned, once you have the collection of stereo files that will be your CD, mastering is the process of ordering them and making sure they flow from one to the next. This involves timing to comply with Redbook standards, and volume adjustment.
If you have been working in higher bit and/or sample rates in your DAW, then yes, converting to 16 bit, 44.1 for CD quality can cause some loss of audio quality. There is even a choice in your DAW how to do that best: look up "dithering".
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Personally, I don't like any form of compression or limiting on the main stereo output whilst I'm either tracking or mixing, as it tends to make the faders interactive. In other words, moving one fader can affect the balance of the other tracks. Once the mix is finished, I may then add a balancing amp to the main output buss, but with just enough levelling to bind things together without altering the balance of the tracks.
I work mainly in Realband / Powertracks and stay in that from start to finish. I still haven't found a mixer which suits my method of working better than Powertracks.
ROG.
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Nobody said your mixdown had to be to CD quality .. let that happen in the mastering stage when the dithering is much better .. here we go again.
Mix down in whatever bit rate you are using and let the FINAL mastering stage make the CD quality.
SEQ file -> mixdown (same bitrate) -> Mastering (and dithering to CD quality) -> burn
Or do it however you want. I'm tired and grumpy tonight. ..
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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Nobody said your mixdown had to be to CD quality .. let that happen in the mastering stage when the dithering is much better .. here we go again.
Mix down in whatever bit rate you are using and let the FINAL mastering stage make the CD quality.
SEQ file -> mixdown (same bitrate) -> Mastering (and dithering to CD quality) -> burn
Or do it however you want. I'm tired and grumpy tonight. .. rharv - What peak level do you like to receive a mix at prior to mastering? Just how much headroom are you looking for? I have Ozone (which is really a drug), but wouldn't call what I've done "Mastering". More like "Mangling"!  Regards, Bob
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I have Ozone 5 and usually at the end go around the presets to try and get a good fitting one, so probably in my case not a great idea to have an active Ozone in project from start of project. I suppose I could have all of its plugins bypassed but I have a niggling suspicion that even a loaded bypassed plugin can sometimes introduce noise into the mix. I have taken a preset that I liked and customized it and saved it with a new name. I start with it and make small changes if they are needed. Bypassing the modules does NOT introduce noise into the mix. Ozone will be quiet with the modules in or with them bypassed. That should not be a concern. Bypassing a plug in removes it from the loop. Shutting off the modules in Ozone does essentially the same thing. Ozone is too processor intensive to have on multiple tracks in a project while mixing. Depends on the computer you have. There's no problem using Ozone in a track or even multiple tracks if the computer can handle the processing. In addition, you should always shut off the modules in Ozone that you are not using. If you don't need the widening and the reverb or the loudness modules.... turn them off and you have reduced the load. Quite often I only have the EQ running in Ozone in a track.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Like Herb said, it's easy to reduce the Ozone load and save a preset.
For levels, it depends.
If I get a mix at around -6 to -3 (tops) that has good sound and dynamics I'm usually happy.
However, there are truly a lot of other factors involved. I could throw you two mixes of the same song at -6 and one could have a whole lot more energy in it than the other. Many reasons.
That's why I like multimeter plugins. Seeing RMS and VU (and the average between the two) helps me personally to analyze just how much energy a song is really generating.
As a very simple example; Use PGPeakLimit and use the boost side to push the signal to a fair amount of compression, then use the Output side to limit it to -6 .. easy, but produces a -6 mix with compression and lack of dynamics as opposed to a workable -6 mix.
I've had that happen. A guy sent me -6 mixes that were all simply squashed to -6... nothing I do was really going to save them. He had already committed to a lot of compression. At that point I'd rather have had a mix at -0 that wasn't compressed! I could then reduce the volume of the whole mix enough to work with it.
Just get a good mix. A mastering house can reduce it easily if needed.
It's nice when you get a polished mix a that range, but it's more important to get a good mix.
If needed you can reduce the output on your final out and re-merge it (if needed).
Focus on the mix.
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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I'm glad Ozone works for each of you as it does.
You can always just apply Ozone to a track and then save the track, so Ozone isn't a factor at all.
If you use multiple Ozone tracks in a non-destructive way for mixing, the makers of Ozone (Izotope) recommend you not do it that way, and use Alloy instead because it was designed for that purpose to be less processor intensive. Of course, maybe that's just to sell Alloy.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Mastering never crosses my mind until I'm good with the mix. I do not mix for the master. I mix for adding effects and getting the tracks' gain and panning "right." For mastering I've developed several Ozone 6 presets that I start with depending on the tune and tweak them until I'm satisfied. Rarely, I find that I have to revisit the mix, e.g., perhaps an acoustic guitar needs a low end shelf to sit better, etc. I use Ozone as a plug-in within Logic Pro X.
All with a healthy dose of FWIW.
Bud
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This statement in the original post raises a question for me:
"2 As the mix always sound better to me from within the DAW compared to the micdown does that imply that there is a certain loss of quality when a file is mixed down to cd quality?"
I suspect that what is going on here is simply a gain item, the audio stream from your DAW is likely playing back at a slightly higher level than the 'mixdown'.
For the mixdown - make sure you are saving to stereo .wav with 16 bit, 44100 Hz rate. Have a look-see to make sure normalization is going on in the mixdown - normalization will help you to avoid digital clipping. However, it may also require you to change the playback volume when you are reviewing the .wav mixdown file, compared to the level coming out of the DAW internally in the computer.
Also, if you are using Windows Media Player, there's a bunch of 'enhancements' that can get turned on and can jack up the playback sound. EQ, stereo-width enhancement, etc. These all need to be disabled. Where these are found in WMP depends on the version you might be using.
If you don't have any of those turned on, and you are saving the .wav file correctly in mixdown, then I would be highly surprised if there is an audibly noticeable difference other than perhaps a level difference between playback levels in DAW vs. .wav mixdown from some other playback tool.
As a final confirmation, one thing you can do is re-import your .wav mixdown into the same project as your source and solo playback it while adjusting the volume, to the playback when you mute that track. If you disable any final bus effects, you should be able to hear something that sounds identical when you A/B listen.
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Here's a discussion from a couple of years ago that might interest you. I was still using T3 then, I'm using Reaper now and a lot more comfortable with it and Ozone. I have my own Ozone presets I like to use on the mix bus once my mix is done and I usually export with that. However, if I'm experimenting I'll do it the traditional way and export a stereo mix file first then add it. Just don't dither using both your DAW and Ozone. Here's the old thread. http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=220078
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Thanks for the link Josie, every little read helps though sometimes as I don't mix too often I tend to forget all the tips that I should have picked up, start of old age creeping in I guess. I had a bit of a chuckle though a few days ago when I read 90db's post above when he described mastering as mangling, that description usually fits my mastering attempts. And they say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.  Musiclover
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