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#307983 - 08/22/15 05:47 PM
[User Showcase]
NEW TRACK: Sunset Road
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Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
Enthusiast
Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
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"Sunset Road" (instrumental) 4 of 7 - Tangled Roots Project This is the fourth track of my Tangled Roots project. I wanted to try a jazz piece without horns. I have always liked waltzes, so here's one  Lead Guitar: 1713: Guitar, Electric, Soloist WesternSwingBrent Sw 165 (Brent Mason) Rhythm Guitar: 933: Guitar, Electric, Rhythm JazzWaltzFreeComp Sw 110 (Oliver Gannon) Violin: 1207: Fiddle, Soloist GypsyJazzBallad Sw 110 (Tim Kliphuis) Electric Piano: 2191: Piano, Electric, Rhythm JazzWaltz Sw 110 (Miles Black) Acoustic Bass: 929: Bass, Acoustic, Jazz Waltz Sw 110 (Neil Swainson) & 452: Bass, Acoustic, Soloist Jazz Sw 140 (Neil Swainson) Drums: JazzBrushesWaltz (Craig Scott) Composition & Arrangement: MW Gilbert https://soundcloud.com/mwgilbert/tangled-roots-ep-04-sunset-roadBackground of the Tangled Roots Project - please see: http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=306755#Post306755Previous tracks: 01 - She Looked Back http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=306755#Post30675502 - Remember Me When You http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=307318#Post30731803 - Peter's Lament http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=307602#Post307602Thanks for listening!
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#307986 - 08/22/15 05:56 PM
[User Showcase]
Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road
[Re: mwgilbert]
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Registered: 01/28/12
Posts: 3148
Loc: Murgon Queensland Australia
Veteran
Registered: 01/28/12
Posts: 3148
Loc: Murgon Queensland Australia
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Very moody. Nice work.
Rob
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#308044 - 08/23/15 09:04 AM
[User Showcase]
Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road
[Re: mwgilbert]
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Registered: 06/22/12
Posts: 2868
Loc: Karlsruhe, Germany
Veteran
Registered: 06/22/12
Posts: 2868
Loc: Karlsruhe, Germany
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Hi Michael,
nicely arranged.
I like your project.
Interesting chords.
Guenter
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#308084 - 08/23/15 04:04 PM
[User Showcase]
Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road
[Re: mwgilbert]
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Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
Enthusiast
Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
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Thanks to both Rob and Guenter for listening and the kind comments. Yes, it is moody indeed, as was I when I wrote it....
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#308090 - 08/23/15 06:06 PM
[User Showcase]
Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road
[Re: mwgilbert]
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Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 3449
Loc: Sacramento, California
Veteran
Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 3449
Loc: Sacramento, California
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Interesting.
Without a melody to guide it, there's a sort of "lurching" quality to the piece.
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#308129 - 08/24/15 06:45 AM
[User Showcase]
Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road
[Re: dcuny]
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Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
Enthusiast
Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
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Interesting.
Without a melody to guide it, there's a sort of "lurching" quality to the piece. True. The limitation (quickly discovered) of attempting something almost entirely in BiaB is that there is no RealTrack in melody (or no melody in RealTrack). Most of the time, inputting MIDI notes (after the fact in a DAW) and trying to make it happen with a VST is never 100% successful. Of course, one can write the part, and then either play it in, or get a session player to do so. For that matter, one could do the whole piece with session players and not use BiaB. This project is just - a project. I wanted to see what I could do with my concept JUST using BiaB. It is almost there, but I had to do a lot(!) of post-editing and production. I played this track for Tim Kliphuis (violin) (who I encounter in other musical orbits) and he more or less said the same thing - why not just get the right players? Thanks for listening and commenting!
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#308132 - 08/24/15 08:12 AM
[User Showcase]
Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road
[Re: mwgilbert]
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Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 13975
Loc: Hamlin NY
Veteran
Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 13975
Loc: Hamlin NY
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Most of the time, inputting MIDI notes (after the fact in a DAW) and trying to make it happen with a VST is never 100% successful.
First I liked the song. A good mixture of sounds and a good mix. Second, I respectfully disagree with your MIDI statement. I add MIDI to RTs quite a bit. If your "never 100% successful" statement is true then either you need better sounding VSTis and/or your MIDI or music techniques need improving, no disrespect intended. Getting good sounding MIDI takes time as you must learn how MIDI works and you must have the tools to make it work such as good sounding VSTis and MIDI controllers. Again I mean no disrespect as I've been there and done that. I will listen to some MIDI stuff that I did a few years ago and man does it suck! I did not have the skills to pull it off. Plus I am still learning about MIDI and music. So much to learn and so little time. As I said I did like this song.
_________________________
It has been a joy being quarantined with my wife. We've caught up on all the things I have done wrong in our 53 years of marriage!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB and RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software and some hardware.
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#308162 - 08/24/15 01:51 PM
[User Showcase]
Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road
[Re: MarioD]
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Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
Enthusiast
Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
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First I liked the song. A good mixture of sounds and a good mix.
Second, I respectfully disagree with your MIDI statement. I add MIDI to RTs quite a bit. If your "never 100% successful" statement is true then either you need better sounding VSTis and/or your MIDI or music techniques need improving, no disrespect intended. Getting good sounding MIDI takes time as you must learn how MIDI works and you must have the tools to make it work such as good sounding VSTis and MIDI controllers.
Again I mean no disrespect as I've been there and done that. I will listen to some MIDI stuff that I did a few years ago and man does it suck! I did not have the skills to pull it off. Plus I am still learning about MIDI and music. So much to learn and so little time.
As I said I did like this song.
Mario, To clarify: You, certainly from the tracks of yours I have heard and enjoyed, do have the chops to play a MIDI controller and make it work well. I, purely as a player, do not. And my current lifestyle is such that I am not likely to acquire them if or until I have lots of practice time. Lots. So my comments are based on the notation --> MIDI --> virtual instrument concept, and NOT for the moment on the controller --> MIDI --> virtual instrument concept. For me to write out parts, not just changes, to have them be composed melodic elements that can be combined with the other BiaB elements, will only really work if someone (other than me) plays them interpretively on a controller or the real instrument, either way. So I do get your point. I just don't have the resources to do it justice Thanks for listening, and the discussion. Always worthwhile!
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#308163 - 08/24/15 02:03 PM
[User Showcase]
Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road
[Re: mwgilbert]
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Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 13975
Loc: Hamlin NY
Veteran
Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 13975
Loc: Hamlin NY
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First I liked the song. A good mixture of sounds and a good mix.
Second, I respectfully disagree with your MIDI statement. I add MIDI to RTs quite a bit. If your "never 100% successful" statement is true then either you need better sounding VSTis and/or your MIDI or music techniques need improving, no disrespect intended. Getting good sounding MIDI takes time as you must learn how MIDI works and you must have the tools to make it work such as good sounding VSTis and MIDI controllers.
Again I mean no disrespect as I've been there and done that. I will listen to some MIDI stuff that I did a few years ago and man does it suck! I did not have the skills to pull it off. Plus I am still learning about MIDI and music. So much to learn and so little time.
As I said I did like this song.
Mario, To clarify: You, certainly from the tracks of yours I have heard and enjoyed, do have the chops to play a MIDI controller and make it work well. I, purely as a player, do not. And my current lifestyle is such that I am not likely to acquire them if or until I have lots of practice time. Lots. So my comments are based on the notation --> MIDI --> virtual instrument concept, and NOT for the moment on the controller --> MIDI --> virtual instrument concept. For me to write out parts, not just changes, to have them be composed melodic elements that can be combined with the other BiaB elements, will only really work if someone (other than me) plays them interpretively on a controller or the real instrument, either way. So I do get your point. I just don't have the resources to do it justice Thanks for listening, and the discussion. Always worthwhile! Ok, now I understand and I agree with you. If you do take the time to input MIDI via notation, the hardest way to input MIDI IMHO, it will still sound very static and not realistic in any way. I apologize upset you, that was not my intention.
_________________________
It has been a joy being quarantined with my wife. We've caught up on all the things I have done wrong in our 53 years of marriage!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB and RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software and some hardware.
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#308166 - 08/24/15 03:23 PM
[User Showcase]
Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road
[Re: MarioD]
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Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
Enthusiast
Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
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Ok, now I understand and I agree with you.
If you do take the time to input MIDI via notation, the hardest way to input MIDI IMHO, it will still sound very static and not realistic in any way.
I apologize upset you, that was not my intention.
No worries. No upset. As I said, I have enjoyed your playing, and respect your input
Edited by mwgilbert (08/24/15 03:23 PM)
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#308182 - 08/24/15 06:10 PM
[User Showcase]
Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road
[Re: mwgilbert]
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Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 3449
Loc: Sacramento, California
Veteran
Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 3449
Loc: Sacramento, California
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For me, melody is king. You've got the form and surface details, but there's no melodic idea that's holding it together. It's like listening to a guitar solos that consists of bunch of licks that are strung together - there are some pleasant moments, but it the end, it doesn't go anywhere. Getting BiaB to create a cohesive melody with RTs is possible - see this and this for a couple my own attempts. As you've discovered, it required lots of cutting and pasting, stretching and pitch-shifting individual notes, and then looking the other way when the timbre didn't quite match up. In the end, it's an interesting puzzle of trying to match bits up, but isn't necessarily the ideal way to go about creating a composition. On the other hand, there are some fantastic sampled instruments available these days. And with some creative editing, it's possible to take an average MIDI instrument and get some surprisingly good results. But that's just my opinion, and I wouldn't want any of this discourage you from experimenting!
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#308186 - 08/24/15 07:39 PM
[User Showcase]
Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road
[Re: dcuny]
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Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
Enthusiast
Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
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For me, melody is king. You've got the form and surface details, but there's no melodic idea that's holding it together. It's like listening to a guitar solos that consists of bunch of licks that are strung together - there are some pleasant moments, but it the end, it doesn't go anywhere. Getting BiaB to create a cohesive melody with RTs is possible - see this and this for a couple my own attempts. As you've discovered, it required lots of cutting and pasting, stretching and pitch-shifting individual notes, and then looking the other way when the timbre didn't quite match up. In the end, it's an interesting puzzle of trying to match bits up, but isn't necessarily the ideal way to go about creating a composition. On the other hand, there are some fantastic sampled instruments available these days. And with some creative editing, it's possible to take an average MIDI instrument and get some surprisingly good results. But that's just my opinion, and I wouldn't want any of this discourage you from experimenting! And a good opinion. I'm not promoting this as anything other than trying to see what can be done in BiaB, never having used it before this project. I might not use this method to create music for release (albums? Remember them? https://itunes.apple.com/us/artist/michael-william-gilbert/id16739698) as I do use techniques that resemble or include the ones you describe above. And I do use lots(!) of sampled instruments, often combined with a lot of compulsively over tweaked MIDI edits Putting aside the Melodist and Soloist parts of BiaB for the moment, you can give a RealTracks "player" a lead sheet of changes, and an arrangement in the form of bar controls and sections, etc., and the RealTracks "player" (carefully chosen and maybe massaging the audio data afterwards) can come up with a cohesive interpretation and rendition of what you have written. Like a session player. What you can't do in this model is to write out a melody line or lines and give that to a RealTracks player to "interpret". Like a session player. Look, I've spent many years playing all kinds of tricks to create music, and I do get that there are no meaningful shortcuts; usually when one tries to take them they turn out to be the long way around anyway... In a sense, BiaB is a form of algorithmic performance (as opposed to composition, again leaving out the Melodist and Soloist) and it has certainly been fun listening to different musical personalities be superimposed on my changes. I do agree, though, in many situations it isn't necessarily an ideal way to go about creating a composition. In the end it is an interesting puzzle of trying to match bits up, and puzzles can be fun just in the doing. I don't find your comments the least bit discouraging, and I have enjoyed receiving and thinking about them.
Edited by mwgilbert (08/24/15 07:41 PM)
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#308187 - 08/24/15 08:12 PM
[User Showcase]
Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road
[Re: dcuny]
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Registered: 08/24/07
Posts: 1520
Loc: Florida, USA
Expert
Registered: 08/24/07
Posts: 1520
Loc: Florida, USA
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I agree with David, although interesting piece especially by the way you combined the different instruments there is a lack of some "glue" to hold it together. I have fallen into that trap a few times myself. Having said that, I think that in a few occasions I have been able to come up with a midi melody and even soloist using a decent VST in which I was quite happy with the result (modesty aside). BTW David I never heard before the ones you posted as a sample, I'm very impressed with them. I just can imagine the work you put into it, wow!
Mike B.
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#308228 - 08/25/15 06:58 AM
[User Showcase]
Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road
[Re: mwgilbert]
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Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 8956
Loc: GA USA
Veteran
Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 8956
Loc: GA USA
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Enjoyed it. We had a great friend who frequently played gypsy jazz
on his fiddle during some of our jams. We've also listened to our
fair share of Stephane Grappelli.
I slice up and paste RT's for fills and turnarounds and short solos.
I don't think I have the ear or patience to attempt it for an instrumental.
Fun listen.
J&B
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#308233 - 08/25/15 07:58 AM
[User Showcase]
Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road
[Re: Janice & Bud]
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Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
Enthusiast
Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
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Enjoyed it. We had a great friend who frequently played gypsy jazz
on his fiddle during some of our jams. We've also listened to our
fair share of Stephane Grappelli.
I slice up and paste RT's for fills and turnarounds and short solos.
I don't think I have the ear or patience to attempt it for an instrumental.
Fun listen.
J&B Thanks for listening and the kind comments! I will be posting this soon, but here's a little preview: https://soundcloud.com/mwgilbert/tangled-roots-ep-06-django-in-june(Django in June is an annual gypsy jazz event in Northampton, MA. As a regular, I have met a few of the RT players on this tune.)
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#308275 - 08/25/15 03:11 PM
[User Showcase]
Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road
[Re: mwgilbert]
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Registered: 10/13/14
Posts: 1679
Loc: Cremona-Italy
Expert
Registered: 10/13/14
Posts: 1679
Loc: Cremona-Italy
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Hello,
good listening to me.
Hello.
Sergio.
_________________________
Sergio
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#308305 - 08/25/15 07:44 PM
[User Showcase]
Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road
[Re: Sergio Guarneri]
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Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
Enthusiast
Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
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Hello,
good listening to me.
Sergio. Thanks for listening and the comment. It started me listening to your tracks.
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#308517 - 08/28/15 06:39 AM
[User Showcase]
Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road
[Re: mwgilbert]
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Registered: 11/19/12
Posts: 2360
Loc: Middletown, PA.
Veteran
Registered: 11/19/12
Posts: 2360
Loc: Middletown, PA.
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I really enjoyed this, great back and forth exchange with instruments, love the sound.
Kenny
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#308642 - 08/29/15 10:50 AM
[User Showcase]
Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road
[Re: 44kfl]
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Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
Enthusiast
Registered: 08/04/15
Posts: 84
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Thanks very much for the listen, Kenny, and the kind comments. I appreciate it!
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#308648 - 08/29/15 12:58 PM
[User Showcase]
Re: NEW TRACK: Sunset Road
[Re: mwgilbert]
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Registered: 12/21/13
Posts: 5655
Loc: Davis, CA
Veteran
Registered: 12/21/13
Posts: 5655
Loc: Davis, CA
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Very interesting listen!! Really interesting and well-constructed music. Arrangement is great. The song always stays interesting. You obviously have a good knowledge of music theory. Enjoyed much! Take care. Greg
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We've EXTENDED our special until JULY 15TH!
Xtra Styles PAK 9 includes deep-south New Orleans gospel, a country soul groove, a psychedelic pop ballad, action-sequence cinematic metal, a Cajun jaw harp boogie, post-punk folk rock, quarter-feel jazz blues, several modern jazz styles, a modern Celtic folk reel, multiple 6/8 grooves, and so much more! There's a MultiStyle in every genre, and our biggest MultiStyle has a total of ten substyles! Add it to your collection today for just $29 (reg. $49)!
Loops-with-Style PAK 2 includes 50 new Styles & 100 new Loops to add to your Band-in-a-Box® collection! There are two new genres: gospel and funk, and we've added to the selection for electronic, hip hop, jazz, pop, R&B, rock, and world! Purchase Loops-with-Style PAK 2 on sale for only $19 (reg. $29)!
Already have a few of our Xtra Styles PAKs? Top up now - each of our 9 Xtra Styles PAKs are just $29 (reg. $49)! Don't have any, and want them ALL? Grab all during our sale for just $199 (reg. $349)!
Learn more about Xtra Styles PAKs for Band-in-a-Box and listen to demos here.
More information on Loops-with-Style PAKs can be found here.
Mac user? Click here for OS specific purchase links.
DAW Plugin FAQs Resource!
We've added a new Band-in-a-Box DAW Plugin for Mac FAQ to our FAQ and Knowledge Base Forum - make sure you check it out!
This is where we'll be sharing any solutions we discover for frequent problems reported while working through our DAW Plugin tech support.
Like this post from Andrew: StylePicker does not see my styles and RealTracks, or they are showing as N/A.
Click here for the solution.
Windows user? Click here for your forum links.
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