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Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 44
Enthusiast
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OP
Enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 44 |
I am a veteran BIAB user and have upgraded many times over the years. I really appreciate the program and the work that has gone into developing and improving it (especially appreciated the recent GUI upgrade).
I am becoming increasingly frustrated, however. Although the program is improving in many areas and the REAL instruments are truly excellent, I still can't get it to do exactly what I need.
As a singer-songwriter, I find that BIAB arrangements are not good enough for a full broadcast-quality production, as they're just not flexible enough to provide song development and interest from intro to end of song (unless you put a lot of extra effort into it, outside of BIAB). But I am OK with that and have come to understand that BIAB and REAL BAND cannot be substitutes for true musicians and a recording studio.
But I would like to be able to put out a decent, simple demo with just vocal and minimal instrumentation. However, I have 2 main difficulties with this:
(1) The arrangements are mostly way too busy and overworked for a simple song demo.
(2) The existing tracks generally sound far too genre-specific for my needs: the country is VERY country, the blues "screams" blues, etc. Whereas, I am looking for arrangements that are a more SUBTLE blend of rock/jazz/blues/country ("Americana", for want of a better label), and less likely to be immediately identified and labelled as distinctly one or the other.
So, what I am wishing for is:
(1) A selection of very spare/simple/minimal accompaniment tracks and/or band arrangements (e.g., bass + drums or percussion + piano or guitar), mostly down- to mid-tempo, that *leave a lot of room for the vocal*. A lot less flash, a lot less NOTES played, but with several levels of dynamics and intensity, that can carry a song through from beginning to end (intro, verses, choruses, bridge, outro).
(2) Tracks that are less genre-specific and provide a more subtle and sophisticated blend of current American musical styles.
Many thanks for considering this!
Mark
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Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 8,863
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 8,863 |
I imagine there are many singer-songwriters that are in total agreement with you and share your frustration on this. I know I've been frustrated in the past trying to get that 'just right' sound from out of my head and into an audio file using BIAB and RB. You make some credible and relevant points in your wish and although unsolicited, I'd like to respond and share how I overcame some of my frustrations in hopes it will help you and others who suffer the same frustrations.
First, I realized that BIAB/RB the songwriting tool and BIAB/RB the broadcast quality demo tool are two different modes housed in the same box.
For the singer-songwriter to forge out ideas and preserve them in audio, one can easily find an acceptable style from the thousands available in BIAB, enter the chords and have music to listen to as the lyrics, chords, bridges are added/removed, verses and structure experimented with until you are satisfied with your song. Your time is spent on the song and not on the technicalities of software.
BIAB is absolutely capable of producing professional, broadcast quality audio. But to do so, does require more time, technical knowledge of music, mixing, producing and the technical features available within BIAB/RB. I should also note that many project tracks created in BIAB/RB are moved to other DAW's for processing and mastering but professional, broadcast quality is achievable using PGMusic software.
Mixing Realtracks, midi/super midi and live user instruments can create music nuanced to any mixed genre, custom riff sound that an artist can imagine.
Some writer/arrangers use BIAB to create their arrangements and print the arrangements then go into a studio and record using studio musicians.
I also participate in the PGMusic User Forum where forum members post their original songs created using PGMusic software. This is a good place to share your original work and receive constructive critiques, mixing and production advice and sometimes having a more experienced BIAB user collaborate with your production. It is also a good place to listen to the varied BIAB styles and instruments that you may not have taken the opportunity to audition yourself. You will hear some songs that are broadcast quality productions on the user forum. It is also a place that you can use to audition styles and instruments to create your own custom styles that become your default style to use for your song creations.
In conclusion, all of the tools, styles and instruments are already in BIAB to do what you wish for but unfortunately, there is no possible way that PGMusic can create a style that is perfect for every singer/songwriter that uses BIAB. But you as an individual can easily create a style for your songwriting from the vast array of available styles and instruments.
Then, if you wish to get into producing your own demo's, BIAB is there for you too. Just a lot more time and work.
BIAB 2026:RB 2026, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 11,026
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 11,026 |
+1
I thought of the campfire styles when I saw this request. With those styles in mind the addition of acoustic guitar Realtracks playing barre chords, pedal steel playing whole note swells and half step slides would be nice additions.
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Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,088
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,088 |
+1
This is a good point. There are so many different ways to produce a style. Just changing the number of instruments isn't always enough to get the required feel.
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
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Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,786
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,786 |
(1) The arrangements are mostly way too busy and overworked for a simple song demo. I'm going to presume you've already tried the "Force track to simple" trick and found that still insufficient. And I know you're making a request and not really asking for advice or 'tips', but I'm going to mention one anyway, which you (and others) might not have considered: Always spend the extra minute it takes to insert the intended melody as Midi into the Melody track before you start rendering the accompanying instruments! You can then mute it, put a "Performance track" on it (vocal or any other thing), or use it for whatever you like. But if you need to free up that channel, then don't delete the underlying midi data until after you've rendered (and frozen!) the other tracks. Now, you may ask, why is this important if I'm only going to make backing tracks for a singer or something and the core reason is simply: The program obviously can't hear your vocal, but it can detect the midi - and it does make a difference in how the accompanying realtracks turn out. In other words, they do somewhat 'take into account' (for the lack of a better term) if the melody is there or not, or more importantly when it's there and when not, if the midi data is there. And this, for your singer, should be quite important, I would wager  But don't just take my word for this. Have a listen to these samples: The first is from BBox own "Artist" collection, and showcases how the accompanying piano provides this lovely flourish right after the melody. And the second sample is from a song I myself made (so the BBox crew couldn't possibly have prepared something specifically for it!), notice how the piano actually seems to be replicating the melody in part. I maintain that these cases didn't "just happen", that what you get from the Realtracks is not just arbitrary or 'random', hence my advice.
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
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BBox 2022 Audiophile, Mac Pro Intel, OSX 10.6.8, 800x600 (TV VGA)
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Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 11,026
Veteran
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 11,026 |
Excellent advice Eddie,
I hope you will copy your post as a new message in the recording section. I think it would create an interesting discussion.
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Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,786
Veteran
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,786 |
Excellent advice Eddie,
I hope you will copy your post as a new message in the recording section. I think it would create an interesting discussion. I appreciate the sentiment, thanks, but I don't know. This was a pretty direct response to a pretty specific issue (one I had been meaning to make ever since this thread started but hadn't the opportunity 'til now), and as such I felt was a pretty 'safe' entry to make, you know. You're quite welcome to copy it or make any other references to it you see fit, if you think it should be noticed elsewhere.
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
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BBox 2022 Audiophile, Mac Pro Intel, OSX 10.6.8, 800x600 (TV VGA)
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Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,139
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,139 |
(1) The arrangements are mostly way too busy and overworked for a simple song demo. I'm going to presume you've already tried the "Force track to simple" trick and found that still insufficient. And I know you're making a request and not really asking for advice or 'tips', but I'm going to mention one anyway, which you (and others) might not have considered: Always spend the extra minute it takes to insert the intended melody as Midi into the Melody track before you start rendering the accompanying instruments! You can then mute it, put a "Performance track" on it (vocal or any other thing), or use it for whatever you like. But if you need to free up that channel, then don't delete the underlying midi data until after you've rendered (and frozen!) the other tracks. Now, you may ask, why is this important if I'm only going to make backing tracks for a singer or something and the core reason is simply: The program obviously can't hear your vocal, but it can detect the midi - and it does make a difference in how the accompanying realtracks turn out. In other words, they do somewhat 'take into account' (for the lack of a better term) if the melody is there or not, or more importantly when it's there and when not, if the midi data is there. And this, for your singer, should be quite important, I would wager But don't just take my word for this. Have a listen to these samples: The first is from BBox own "Artist" collection, and showcases how the accompanying piano provides this lovely flourish right after the melody. And the second sample is from a song I myself made (so the BBox crew couldn't possibly have prepared something specifically for it!), notice how the piano actually seems to be replicating the melody in part. I maintain that these cases didn't "just happen", that what you get from the Realtracks is not just arbitrary or 'random', hence my advice. That is a very cool trick, Eddie. Have to try that. Thanks. Regards, Bob
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Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,786
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Just be aware that in my experience with this it can sometimes take maybe 2-3 re-renderings for this to really start being effective (and sometimes if you do too many it actually starts to go away again), so be sure to output the good ones to audio before doing another re-render.
Also, and this is quite important: Never attempt this with "fast rendering" enabled, make sure that's turned OFF!
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
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BBox 2022 Audiophile, Mac Pro Intel, OSX 10.6.8, 800x600 (TV VGA)
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Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,139
Veteran
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,139 |
Just be aware that in my experience with this it can sometimes take maybe 2-3 re-renderings for this to really start being effective (and sometimes if you do too many it actually starts to go away again), so be sure to output the good ones to audio before doing another re-render.
Also, and this is quite important: Never attempt this with "fast rendering" enabled, make sure that's turned OFF! Thanks for the good info! Regards, Bob
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Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,556
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Never attempt this with "fast rendering" enabled, make sure that's turned OFF! Could you please elaborate on this? I'm wondering if it is from your experience, or if Dr. Gannon actually said this, or if it's in the manual someplace and I missed it? If it's from your experience, are there any circumstances (styles etc.) in which it works better or worse? Thanks.
BIAB 2026 Win Audiophile. Software: Fender Studio One 8, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus Quantom HD8 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Styles and RealTracks Wishlist
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,786
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 4,786 |
Never attempt this with "fast rendering" enabled, make sure that's turned OFF! Could you please elaborate on this? I'm wondering if it is from your experience, or if Dr. Gannon actually said this, or if it's in the manual someplace and I missed it? If it's from your experience, are there any circumstances (styles etc.) in which it works better or worse? Thanks. First off, all of this is "based on my experience", just so that is clear. What I'm getting at with this particular note is that when you turn the "Fast render" on, the rendering process is still going on as you play (and this fact is straight from the video where 'Fast Render' was first introduced!), whereas if you turn it OFF, the program registers the whole song before 'deciding' which of its many playing variables it should go for per bar. The end result tends thus to be better (both technically and musically) when this feature is turned off. But again, this is my own experience, mileage may vary.
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
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BBox 2022 Audiophile, Mac Pro Intel, OSX 10.6.8, 800x600 (TV VGA)
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