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Hi Forum Group, First, let me thank all who have listened to my songs. I appreciate it. I listen to as many of yours as I can. This Forum is in a class all its own. The talent of this group is unbelievable. I recently wrote and shared with you, Pray It Forward. I used synthesized harmony in the chorus, and a number of you suggested I sing the parts. I took the suggestion, and let me say it has been a daunting experience. Always singing lead, I never sang harmony and I realized that the range of my voice is becoming more limited. Trying to sing a third (forget a fifth) above or below the melody was like gravity shrinking sideways. But, enough self-bashing. Mixing the harmonies was another new experience. At any rate, following is a link of the remake with me, myself, and I, singing together. I've kept it private, with the exception of this Forum for the time being, as it may need more work. Please take a listen, and let me know what you think. Peace, Carolyne https://soundcloud.com/carolyne-swayze/pray-it-forward/s-uYtU0
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Hi Carolyne,
You've done a great job. I prefer the sound of your own harmonies rather than the electronic ones. I envy you because singing harmony is something that I find incredibly difficult!
Best wishes,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
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Thanks Noel,
Actually , I found it incredibly difficult as well. As a result I'm getting private messages 2 to 1 to ditch the harmonies. HA! Perhaps, I'll work on it some more. I just can' trust my lyin' ears.
-Carolyne
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Hi Carolyne!
Lovely song with a beautiful and uplifting message!
I feel your frustration of being a professional singer who struggles finding a comfort level with singing harmony... but I actually think that's fairly common. Speaking as a guitar player, it occurred to me a long time ago that the skills required for playing rock solid rhythm guitar and the skills required for playing lead are totally different. Most of the good lead players I know are just awful at playing rhythm, and vice versa.
So, begin with the realization that singing harmonies is a whole different thing than singing lead. When singing lead, your style is to delay and rush the syllables for artistic effect.. (which I love, by the way)... but the backup singers dare not exercise such freedom. They need to hold the cadence of the song ..as they are, in effect, part of the rhythm section.
I think that what people are objecting to here is not that the backing vocals are out of key or out of time, but rather that they are singing like the lead singer. With different singers all exercising stylized liberty, it gets confusing.
Its kind of like decorating a room. If the background is neutral, you have liberty to use bold accent colors... but if everything in the room is as bold as the accents, it overwhelms the senses. By analogy, your singing style is bold and colorful, so the BGV need to be neutral.
In summary, I think your BGV singing is wonderful in terms of pitch and quality.. but when singing the BGV, consider adopting a less expressive style. Simpler. Not as fancy.
I love your songs, and I sincerely hope this does not sound like criticism! I mean it only as an observation and observations can be totally wrong! I submit it for your consideration, and if it doesn't resonate with you, just reject it and think "boy, that Pat character sure is wrong!" ;-)
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Hi Carolyne,
still like the song. But I assist Pat:
"I think that what people are objecting to here is not that the backing vocals are out of key or out of time, but rather that they are singing like the lead singer."
Guenter
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Thank you so much for taking the time to explain this Pat. For the most part, the thundering silence in response to this piece has said it all. I knew something was wrong because I’m listening to it, but I couldn’t put my finger on it. I kept trying to fix either the pitch or harmonies. You gave me my Ah-ha moment.
To my way of thinking, there are two types of background singers. The first is strictly background doing the typical Oohs and aahs, singing primarily from ear in a manner that complements the lead. The other is harmony which is not a background singer per se, as the oohs and aahs. Rather, they sing in unison with the lead, but singing specific notes, usually written, without duplicating the lead's notes. For instance, if the chord is C Maj, I would sing the C, another voice would sing the E, and a third would sing the G, thus a perfect C Maj triad vocally. However, you are dead right. If I do that (correctly) I’m going to have to sing it straight without my typical expression that very often I don’t even realize I’m doing. Also, in the case of Pray It Forward, I then added the Ooohs and Aaahs to end up with a big pot of musical goulash.
So back to the drawing board. Big, big kudos to you, Guenter, and Trygve for keeping me honest. I get everyone wants to be encouraging without hurting anyone else's feelings. The beauty of being associated with a forum like this is we are all vested in being the best we can. Hearing honest constructive criticism about what others hear in what we perform, allows us to improve and be successful. I truly appreciate it. I’m going to pull the song down for now and do some reharm, or at least try.
Take care,
-Carolyne
Last edited by Carolyne; 04/11/16 09:12 AM.
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Carolyne, that was perhaps the most gracious reply I have ever read anywhere! Thank you for making an honest effort to understand the intent of my message! Probably three times a month on various forums, I see people choosing to be offended by the words of people who mean no harm.
In my opinion, the ability to respond graciously (even when people DO mean harm.. but especially when they don't) is one of the best indicators of confidence. Confident people are willing to take risks. And having taken the risk, they are also confident enough to hear observations objectively.
Regarding your differentiation between harmony and other BGV (with which I totally agree) I want to say that adding harmonies to the vocals of a singer with a stylized delivery is complicated by the fact that you may feel the timing differently each time you record the passage for each harmony. I'm like you in the sense that I use timing as an accent in my guitar playing, so I have NEVER been able to go back and add harmonies, because I "feel" the timing differently each time!
Here is where vocal and guitar harmonizers shine... because they let you sing (or play) with total free form abandon, and the harmonies just follow along obediently! But I guess that's where you started, isn't it? In my opinion a GOOD hardware based harmonizer is worth its weight in gold for people like you and me, who sing /play it with a different feel every time.
But... lots of people would disagree, so you have to regard opinions as just that.
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Listen to how the masters do it. I have been an avid follower of Bill Gaither and the Gaither Boys for a number of years. Listen to how they harmonize on the U.S.A. National Anthem. Please listen all the way to hear the marvelous ending. I have played this many, many times and never tire of it. I realize this forum is part of a global market and it is not my intention in making any political or national comments with the song. It's just that I have never heard a better rendition or example of harmony...ever...anywhere, so I hope no one is offended. If I'm doing something unintentionally inappropriate, just pull it down PG Music, and I'll get the message. -Carolyne https://youtu.be/Vwxv-EZpb7U
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Carolyne,
Vocal stylings such as yours, typically, should not have harmony on them. They stand on their own. If you want to add "sweetening", add some strings. Or subtle horns... The jazz "greats" never have a backing harmony...
fj
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Carolyne,
Vocal stylings such as yours, typically, should not have harmony on them. They stand on their own. If you want to add "sweetening", add some strings. Or subtle horns... The jazz "greats" never have a backing harmony...
fj Floyd nailed the key point! Carolyne, you have a "star" voice, and it needs to be in its own space
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Carolyne,
Vocal stylings such as yours, typically, should not have harmony on them. They stand on their own. If you want to add "sweetening", add some strings. Or subtle horns... The jazz "greats" never have a backing harmony...
fj That was exactly also what I felt and was thinking when I heard the harmony part... But unable to express it... This forum rocks !
Forever Grateful, BUT, sometimes pissed of.  Trygve "Leo" Larsen BiaB 2020, Windows 8.1, Intel Core i5 CPU, 270GHz, 32 Gb RAM My OLD tracks on Soundcloud; https://soundcloud.com/trygve-larsen My NEW is unpublished The Universe = Uni-verse ie one song.
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Wow. Now I'm all verklempt 
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Hello, Carolyne
I entirely agree with Noel, Pat, Guenter and floyd.
You are a great singer.
And great songwriter, too.
I like both of previous version and this version.
Enjoyed my listen a lot.
Best Regards
Shigeki Adachi
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Pat you comments are so well thought out and gracious . . .
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I look forward to hearing the song. I can only guess you deleted it because the link wouldn't work.
Peace
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I like what floyd said. When Janice does a bluesy tune I'll sometimes say "want to do some harmony?" and her polite response is invariably that the style doesn't need it. Janice and I both came from years of bluegrass where EVERY song had harmony most 3rd's and 5th's above and below, etc., so it was an adjustment not to just throw in harmony for no reason other than she can do it  I completely agree that your tunes are the type that really showcases the vocal and, in most cases, no matter how well done harmony would not be needed. FWIW, I ascribe to the notion that "perfection is not when there's nothing left to add but rather when there is nothing left to take away. J&B
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THIS!!!! "perfection is not
when there's nothing left to add but rather when there is nothing left
to take away.
J&B
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Hi Bud,
I thank you for your input, and all the kind words I have received regarding this song. I have also enjoyed listening to your and Janice’s music. I get the point about doing harmony for no reason. In this particular case, I thought the message of the song invited multiple voices. Sort of a chorus of neighbors, brothers, sisters, poor, children, sick and infirmed, etc. praying it forward. Because of the range of the harmonies, and in order to not have to go into the next octave, I added some vagrant harmonies; diminished, augmented, 7ths, etc., which I now refer to as musical goulash.
I guess it's just human nature to try things outside our comfort zones. Singers want to dance, dancers want to sing, jazz artist want to sing country, and country want to sing jazz, etc. Its just the way of the world.
I’m pleased to hear that for the most part the consensus is I don’t need the harmonies, because the bitter truth is I can’t really sing them.
Peace,
-Carolyne
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