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#348403 - 05/04/16 09:25 AM [Off-Topic] BIAB Musicians
Registered: 02/14/16
Posts: 39
Loc: Portland, Oregon USA
CocoTex Offline
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Registered: 02/14/16
Posts: 39
Loc: Portland, Oregon USA
This question has probably been asked and answered many times here, but I'm unable to find an answer with any certainty.

When I create an original song, not a cover, using BIAB real tracks, and burn a CD and sell it, is there a legal and/or monetary responsibility to compensate the BIAB musicians?

Under normal studio recording circumstances, I pay the backup musicians/singers, a fee, and have them sign a Work For Hire agreement/release. (I'm not all that, but want to make sure I'm aware of any responsibilities.)

Thanks.
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#348405 - 05/04/16 09:37 AM [Off-Topic] Re: BIAB Musicians [Re: CocoTex]
Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 11389
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
jford Online   content
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In a word, NO.

You are free to use the sounds created by BIAB for your tunes, whether you sell them, or not. This includes RealTracks/RealDrums/MIDI.
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#348413 - 05/04/16 10:35 AM [Off-Topic] Re: BIAB Musicians [Re: CocoTex]
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 18846
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Offline
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What John said.

And you don't, and shouldn't, credit the individual BIAB artists. You can, but do not have to, credit BIAB or maybe PG Music. Maybe someone can find Peter Gannon's exact preference on this; he has commented.

I want to thank you for asking your question and wanting to do things correctly. In this era of electronic distribution of (mostly free) music, only the names of the artist and song are known. All the contributing musicians, composers, arrangers, producers, engineers etc. are really hard to figure out. This is a soapbox issue for me, as I'm a major part of many projects but you wouldn't know it.
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#348425 - 05/04/16 12:53 PM [Off-Topic] Re: BIAB Musicians [Re: CocoTex]
Registered: 02/14/16
Posts: 39
Loc: Portland, Oregon USA
CocoTex Offline
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Registered: 02/14/16
Posts: 39
Loc: Portland, Oregon USA
Thank you both. Exactly what I wanted to know (and what I wanted to hear).

I'm a proponent of royalty licensing and fees, and the rights of songwriters, bands, musicians, or whoever holds rights, copyrights, publishing rights, etc. It amazes me when I see folks disregard them...unlicensed use. You know them. Some make livings off "Tribute" gigs.

"Oh, Paul Simon doesn't care if we play his songs...he'd say he has enough money..."

Uh, no, he DOES care.

Certainly, actually getting paid by PROs like BMI and ASCAP, or Spotify, has some huge problems, but that's another discussion.
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#348495 - 05/05/16 04:47 AM [Off-Topic] Re: BIAB Musicians [Re: CocoTex]
Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4748
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Notes Norton Offline
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The same goes for Norton Music styles and the Hawkesford and Mayrent styles that I distribute on my site.

My styles are tools, and if you build a song with those tools, you don't have to pay me.

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#348500 - 05/05/16 05:15 AM [Off-Topic] Re: BIAB Musicians [Re: CocoTex]
Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 6477
Guitarhacker Offline
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The tracks you create are your intellectual property if you have bought the license by buying BB/RB from PG Music. You are free to use them without further obligation for whatever uses you have.

Theoretically, you could have a multi-platinum chart topping hit and not owe a dime to PG or the musicians.


Normally, I do not list the players on my songs other than in this forum place. People rarely ask who's playing the (whatever instrument).... so no, I don't feel obligated to disclose that information. Most people just assume it was some Nashville studio musicians or me playing the parts.
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#348521 - 05/05/16 08:15 AM [Off-Topic] Re: BIAB Musicians [Re: CocoTex]
Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7716
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7716
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Originally Posted By: CocoTex
I'm a proponent of royalty licensing and fees, and the rights of songwriters, bands, musicians, or whoever holds rights, copyrights, publishing rights, etc. It amazes me when I see folks disregard them...unlicensed use. You know them. Some make livings off "Tribute" gigs.

"Oh, Paul Simon doesn't care if we play his songs...he'd say he has enough money..."

Uh, no, he DOES care.

Certainly, actually getting paid by PROs like BMI and ASCAP, or Spotify, has some huge problems, but that's another discussion.

When cover bands play somebody's protected music, somebody pays a fee... usually the establishment hosting the music. I've heard plenty of stories just around here of BMI and/or ASCAP agents approaching venues and making sure they pay for a license to host live music. In some cases they've demanded back pay where live music has been available but no license was ever paid for.

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#348527 - 05/05/16 09:19 AM [Off-Topic] Re: BIAB Musicians [Re: Pat Marr]
Registered: 02/14/16
Posts: 39
Loc: Portland, Oregon USA
CocoTex Offline
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Registered: 02/14/16
Posts: 39
Loc: Portland, Oregon USA
Originally Posted By: Pat Marr

When cover bands play somebody's protected music, somebody pays a fee... usually the establishment hosting the music.


Hi, Pat.

I don't mean to start an argument, but no, when no license is in place, no one pays a PRO fee. Maybe you mean "often" or "usually" somebody pays a fee, but, I know plenty of small venues that don't have licenses, that have tributes, and I know one medium and popular venue that has live music on regular schedules.

And then you get into licensing for all PROs for a venue. BMI, ASCAP, and SESAC. It's a contentious situation, and can be rife with arguments. How many TVs there are in a bar, how many music speakers, how many typical customers vs. the fire code approved limit. Churches are exempt, don't get me started on that.

Yes, you are correct that in some instances PROs notify the venue and threaten them, and occasionally I've seen a law suit. Though the license fees would be low, still all things being relative, they would put enough strain on a place to either have them cease, or only allow originals and even that is not an exemption if you ask a PRO. It opens a can of worms if all the PROs get involved, BMI wants $500, ASCAP follows, $700, SESAC jumps in an wants $800. The minimum total I've seen is $1500/year.

In my home state, Louisiana, it is common for a venue to post "Only BMI (or whatever PRO) songs are played here", and to enforce it. I saw a bar manager go on stage and physically stop a band. I guess it was a song he knew was not their licensed PRO. Battling a PRO in court is like an ant taking on a boot. Deep pockets and millions of $s involved. The PRO is not going to lose.

Anyway, sorry it that sounds like a vent, not my intention.
_________________________
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8 GB, 64-bit, 2 TB
Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 USB 2.0 Audio Interface
M-Audio AV40 Monitors (powered)
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#348540 - 05/05/16 10:32 AM [Off-Topic] Re: BIAB Musicians [Re: CocoTex]
Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 6477
Guitarhacker Offline
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Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 6477
Originally Posted By: CocoTex
Originally Posted By: Pat Marr

When cover bands play somebody's protected music, somebody pays a fee... usually the establishment hosting the music.


Hi, Pat.

I don't mean to start an argument, but no, when no license is in place, no one pays a PRO fee. Maybe you mean "often" or "usually" somebody pays a fee, but, I know plenty of small venues that don't have licenses, that have tributes, and I know one medium and popular venue that has live music on regular schedules.

And then you get into licensing for all PROs for a venue. BMI, ASCAP, and SESAC. It's a contentious situation, and can be rife with arguments. How many TVs there are in a bar, how many music speakers, how many typical customers vs. the fire code approved limit. Churches are exempt, don't get me started on that.

Yes, you are correct that in some instances PROs notify the venue and threaten them, and occasionally I've seen a law suit. Though the license fees would be low, still all things being relative, they would put enough strain on a place to either have them cease, or only allow originals and even that is not an exemption if you ask a PRO. It opens a can of worms if all the PROs get involved, BMI wants $500, ASCAP follows, $700, SESAC jumps in an wants $800. The minimum total I've seen is $1500/year.

In my home state, Louisiana, it is common for a venue to post "Only BMI (or whatever PRO) songs are played here", and to enforce it. I saw a bar manager go on stage and physically stop a band. I guess it was a song he knew was not their licensed PRO. Battling a PRO in court is like an ant taking on a boot. Deep pockets and millions of $s involved. The PRO is not going to lose.

Anyway, sorry it that sounds like a vent, not my intention.


Well...... yes and no...

I always thought that a venue paid one PRO and there was a formula in place to "evenly" divide the royalties to the right parties. Rarely will a venue (nightclub) owner contact the PRO to pay royalties on live music..... it's up to the PRO to walk in the door and explain the law and collect the royalties. I'm sure there are tens of thousands of places that don't think they are complying but actually are. In many cases, if a location has commercial music or TV for their customers, the provider is collecting the royalties in the monthly subscription and the venue never sees the bill.... but they are paying regardless. If the place has a radio, live music, or uses a jukebox, that's where the PRO is interested in talking to the owner. I played in a club house band and we were "asked" to submit our set lists to the owner for a PRO review by ASCAP. There was an ASCAP sticker on the door but not a BMI or SESAC sticker. They also made a list of the songs on the jukebox.

Churches are not exempt. They have to pay license and royalties, although they do it with a different company IIRC.... one of the music ministers here can give you the specifics. I was at a church where they were very strict about the music used and that it was properly licensed. (regarding congregational tunes and choir as well as anything in the drama skits as well)

Regarding the "Only BMI music played here" signs..... man that would be hard to enforce. Especially if they have live bands or a jukebox.
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#348547 - 05/05/16 11:31 AM [Off-Topic] Re: BIAB Musicians [Re: CocoTex]
Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7716
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7716
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well, I wasn't speaking in an absolute sense... very little can be stated absolutely.

But my comment was in response to what sounded to me like an accusation against the musicians themselves for playing other peoples' music..

Quote:
It amazes me when I see folks disregard them...unlicensed use. You know them. Some make livings off "Tribute" gigs.
"Oh, Paul Simon doesn't care if we play his songs...he'd say he has enough money..."
Uh, no, he DOES care.



and my point was that its not normally their place to pay the fee. If anybody pays the fee, its generally the host.

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#348557 - 05/05/16 12:23 PM [Off-Topic] Re: BIAB Musicians [Re: CocoTex]
Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 2523
JohnJohnJohn Offline
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I wonder if tribute bands fall into another category? Because they not only cover a certain band's songs but they use that band's reputation, success, persona, etc. in order to promote themselves. Seems like they should be paying more directly to the band they are impersonating/copying/tributing!

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#348559 - 05/05/16 12:31 PM [Off-Topic] Re: BIAB Musicians [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 6477
Guitarhacker Offline
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Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
I wonder if tribute bands fall into another category? Because they not only cover a certain band's songs but they use that band's reputation, success, persona, etc. in order to promote themselves. Seems like they should be paying more directly to the band they are impersonating/copying/tributing!


Nahhhh... It's all the same as cover.

I've seen a few bands that played normal cover sets for the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd set of the night, then, did a tribute set of a given band for the closing set. And they had several different tribute sets....quite literally, a different one for every night of the week.

The host venue pays the license fees.


I wonder..... does a concert promoter at a concert venue have to pay PRO royalties? I mean, after all, the artist who originally did the song is performing the song.... kinda like paying themselves..... but the PRO gets a cut of the action...... hummmmmmmmmmm????? Don't answer this.... it's rhetorical.
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#348604 - 05/05/16 07:04 PM [Off-Topic] Re: BIAB Musicians [Re: CocoTex]
Registered: 02/14/16
Posts: 39
Loc: Portland, Oregon USA
CocoTex Offline
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Loc: Portland, Oregon USA
Yeah, the cable companies have commercial level licenses, and they have to audit, # TVs, screen size, venue square footage. Adding record/CD players, a radio or CD player. Not everyone plays by the rules.

No, the PROs do not share. 3 licenses are required if a venue want to play all copyrighted music in the US. And there's rumor of a 4th.

Churches are exempt from license fees for "worship services." Other use of copyrighted materials, background music, concerts, plays, etc., all require licenses. However, I'm sure it's a slippery slope and that your pastor or church music director knows considerably more than I do about their use and requirements. Yes,churches have different requirements than more commercial places, and have a license available just for that.

Yep, when you contact with a PRO, and you can only contract with 1, and you play your own song in a licensed venue, the venue or you can submit the song list to the PRO, and you get paid to play your own song. How $%^) is that?

And the PROs are proactive. If they want, they know you have live music, and know you don't have a license with their company, it's easy for them to send a secret shopper in. They will make a list. "2 Jimmy Buffett, 1 Rolling Stones", and a suit for $10,000. As a venue, you get threatened enough, you pay attention. Try running a non-licensed open mic in Nashville at a coffee shop.

Google it. Here's one. http://www.digitalmusicn
ews.com/2014/10/29/ascap-bmi-sesac-force-local-coffee-shop-shut-live-music/

I also checked the license form used by a large coliseum. Big names play there. A Level. The contract requires the performer to provide the song list to both the venue (standard) and all PROs associated, and the performer is responsible for all payments (this is not standard in the bar-type world). So, what the venue is covering is that the performer has already contracted with BMI or whoever to play that cover song on their tour.

It's a great subject and opinions vary. ASCAP will say one thing, bar owners another, musicians. I've attended PRO conferences, as well as an annual seminar on Copyrights for Artist. I have a general idea of what is required. But the whole deal is muddy water at best.
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#348622 - 05/06/16 02:19 AM [Off-Topic] Re: BIAB Musicians [Re: Guitarhacker]
Registered: 05/15/15
Posts: 825
Loc: St. Petersburg , FL
Island Soul Offline
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Are we saying cover bands as in playing various songs from various artist?
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#348633 - 05/06/16 05:00 AM [Off-Topic] Re: BIAB Musicians [Re: Island Soul]
Registered: 04/03/09
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Guitarhacker Offline
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Originally Posted By: Islansoul
Are we saying cover bands as in playing various songs from various artist?


yes. Most bands in bars are cover bands.

They don't have enough original material or a big enough following to play originals.
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#348634 - 05/06/16 05:10 AM [Off-Topic] Re: BIAB Musicians [Re: Guitarhacker]
Registered: 02/13/07
Posts: 45
Loc: Graceville FL
insolentlad Offline
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Posts: 45
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If one actually is imitating a band or individual, as with Elvis impersonators, it is a different situation and is not just a matter of licensing the songs. I've heard of 'tribute' musicians being sued for 'theft of act.' Some get around this by not performing two songs in a row that are associated with the artist being imitated but I don't know how well that holds up legally.

Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
I wonder if tribute bands fall into another category? Because they not only cover a certain band's songs but they use that band's reputation, success, persona, etc. in order to promote themselves. Seems like they should be paying more directly to the band they are impersonating/copying/tributing!


Nahhhh... It's all the same as cover.

I've seen a few bands that played normal cover sets for the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd set of the night, then, did a tribute set of a given band for the closing set. And they had several different tribute sets....quite literally, a different one for every night of the week.

The host venue pays the license fees.


I wonder..... does a concert promoter at a concert venue have to pay PRO royalties? I mean, after all, the artist who originally did the song is performing the song.... kinda like paying themselves..... but the PRO gets a cut of the action...... hummmmmmmmmmm????? Don't answer this.... it's rhetorical.
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#348637 - 05/06/16 05:27 AM [Off-Topic] Re: BIAB Musicians [Re: CocoTex]
Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4748
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Notes Norton Offline
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I've played professionally for decades playing songs written by other people.

Some were in what I call cover bands (trying to make the song sound as close to the record as possible) and others in bands that reinterpreted the songs (I don't consider them cover bands).

In the old days it was common to see the yellow and black ASCAP sticker prominently displayed, often on the door to the manager's office. I don't think they do that anymore.

How the royalties get divided up from the fees the establishment pays is none of my concern since I doubt they are playing any of my songs.

I remember years ago you had to pay for the songs on the radio too. I used to eat at a pizza joint. Small restaurant, perhaps a dozen booths the owner/chef and one waitress. The ASCAP man came in and demanded payment or shut the radio. He shut the radio, then found some tapes of old Italian songs that were definitely PD and played them over and over again.

I believe in the USA you can play the radio in a small restaurant now without paying fees. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyway, read the PG and other user licenses. Mine specifically says the songs you make with my styles are royalty free to me. But if you use them to play other people's songs, you must abide by your local copyright laws for the songs (not my styles).

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100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
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#348645 - 05/06/16 06:54 AM [Off-Topic] Re: BIAB Musicians [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7716
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7716
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
I wonder if tribute bands fall into another category? Because they not only cover a certain band's songs but they use that band's reputation, success, persona, etc. in order to promote themselves. Seems like they should be paying more directly to the band they are impersonating/copying/tributing!


can't speak for all tribute bands, but I think some of them are franchised... in other words, somebody has done all the legal legwork, then sells rights to groups in various cities to operate under the franchised name.

One Tom Petty tribute act (that I'm guessing is a franchise) is called PETTY THEFT (ironic name, given the topic) , and if you google it you'll find several different bands in different cities operating under the same name.

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