Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread
Print Thread
Go To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#407319 04/14/17 06:28 AM
Songwriting
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 880
I
Expert
OP Offline
Expert
I
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 880
So I though about the differences about songwriting and compsing and I have come up with a list. Let me know what you all think about it.

Songwriting

[list]
[*]Mostly uses simple chords.
[*]Usually is straightforward with the message of the song. There are exceptions, like Hotlel California, I am the Walrus, Strawberry fields forever, a lot of Beatles tunes, Adele, "Set Fire to the Rain"(how do you set fire to rain? Unless your Elijah from the bible),

Composing
[*]Heavy useage of chord extensions, various chord voices, arpeggios ect.
[*]May sometime have variations on a theme, and wire the listener to interprate the meaning.
[*]Compositions may feature lyrics such as an opera, aria , musicals chiors, pieces for mass, vocal jazz song.
[*]Tend to be more complex and expressive. What I mean by this is that in a typical song, not a composition, it may just one dynamic or have one feeling, soft loud, bouncy, dance feel. I don't mean that if you are a songwriter you are not expressive, I just notice that a lot of songs tend to stick to one feeling or dynamic.


Computer: Macbook Pro, 16 inch 2021
DAWs: Pro Tools, Logic, and Maschine
plays drums, percussion, bass, steel pan, keyboard,
music producer/engineer
Songwriting
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,820
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,820
I am inclined to disagree. Isn't a songwriter a composer? Was Tom Dooly composed or written? Was Take 5 composed or written?

Definition of composer

: one that composes; especially : a person who writes music

Definition of songwriter

: a person who composes words or music or both especially for popular songs

My emphasis.

Was Dave Brubeck a songwriter on the popular Take 5 and a composer for everything else he wrote.

Were classical composers just songwriters? Classical music is based on three or four chords, I, IV, V with an occasional iim, just like modern music.
See here:

http://www.secretsofsongwriting.com/2011/02/01/stealing-from-classical-music-to-write-your-next-song/

Thus to me songwriters and composers are one in the same. YMMV


I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"

64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Songwriting
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913
R
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
R
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913
These days, I don't think there's clear lines of demarcation between songwriting, composing, arranging, and producing.

Sometimes I start with the very far right end of that scale with a 'sound' and energy that I know I want; and get right at the effect chains I will use, then go looking for the right instrumentation, then think of some chords, and eventually get to lyrics if I feel a story coming in the process.

Other times, I will start at the left end and have a pile of lyrics that I sift into verses and a bridge and chorus and I'll write out all of the lyrics and then the melody comes to life.

I consider all of it to be songwriting.

Songwriting
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 7,758
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 7,758
This is not addressed to any forum respondent in particular, but is pointed at one resource mentioned in this thread that talked about "boring" classical progressions stuck in I, IV and V.

I own the Classical Fake Book and I see a lot more than 1, IV and V going on in there. I sometimes even see chords I have to look up. smile

Also, as I am trying to learn to Play Bach's Partita 3 for Violin in E Major I see there are many pages where a new chord appears every measure (I mean brand new unexpected chords that have not been used before in the song), using some chords I have never seen before, with my pinky bent backwards over my thumb just trying to play them, so I am going to have to disagree with Gary Ewer that Bach can be "boring" or "dull" or whatever he said in that post Mario referenced. (I still like his songwriting books though.)

Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring which is one of the easier pieces has about 6 times more chords than Blackbird, which has a lot. Blackbird borrowed liberally from this it seems, though Paul points to a Bach Bourree in E Minor. The famous Prelude I in C from Well Tempered Klavier? Simple Chords? Boring? Huh?

This from Ewer is flat out off target:

"It may surprise you (maybe even disappoint you?) to know that Classical composers were not usually very innovative with their choice of chords. In fact, if you strip Bach’s counterpoint down to its basic chord structures, you’re looking at something that might be considered downright dull: lots of I-chords and V-chords, with ii-chords and IV-chords thrown in for good measure. What complicated things harmonically was that he visited many keys within the same work."

Ummmmmmmm. No Gary. No can agree man.

None of Bach's music works without the intricate counterpoint and subtle chord changes and variations which means that the internal melodies and chord inversions are constantly changing. Even a simple tune (simple for Bach that is) like Jesu totally destroys the idea that his chords were "simple" and "dull." I am sorry but that is just crazy.

Back to the original question though:

I think ALL music is composing by definition--it's only a matter of complexity--and I find it fascinating to study the chord progressions of classical composers.

In Mozart's day they would throw rotten tomatoes at you if you tried to rip off someone else and couldn't come up with something more entertaining and original to please the King.

These days the only way to please the King and not get rotten tomatoes thrown at you IS to rip off everyone else and make your music as unoriginal as possible.

Aside from that very slight difference, music has not changed at all over the centuries.

Songwriting
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 7,758
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 7,758
An addendum. This is SO boring! If only Bach had had a good e-book book or a good .pdf download on how to write a chord progression he might have made something out of himself. What a LOSER!!!

Attached Files (Click to download or enlarge) (Only available when you are logged in)
Bach Partita 3b.jpg (134.96 KB, 226 downloads)
Songwriting
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 221
Apprentice
Offline
Apprentice
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 221
Songwriting is a particular type of composing that emphasizes words as well as music. Sometimes I forget that the job ain't done with only words and a chord sheet.

Songwriting
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 880
I
Expert
OP Offline
Expert
I
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 880
Originally Posted By: MarioD
I am inclined to disagree. Isn't a songwriter a composer? Was Tom Dooly composed or written? Was Take 5 composed or written?

Definition of composer

: one that composes; especially : a person who writes music

Definition of songwriter

: a person who composes words or music or both especially for popular songs

My emphasis.

Was Dave Brubeck a songwriter on the popular Take 5 and a composer for everything else he wrote.

Were classical composers just songwriters? Classical music is based on three or four chords, I, IV, V with an occasional iim, just like modern music.
See here:

http://www.secretsofsongwriting.com/2011/02/01/stealing-from-classical-music-to-write-your-next-song/

Thus to me songwriters and composers are one in the same. YMMV



OK, you make a good point Mario D, but I was talking about how in some songs, not musical compositions, they seem to lack dynamic range, and most use simplistic chords that anyone could learn on the internet. I do not count the beatles because they had a lot of help from George Martin and a lot of their song used horns, strings, and various other technics to give death, life, app and emotion to their songs.

Last edited by Islansoul; 04/17/17 05:23 AM.

Computer: Macbook Pro, 16 inch 2021
DAWs: Pro Tools, Logic, and Maschine
plays drums, percussion, bass, steel pan, keyboard,
music producer/engineer
Songwriting
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,665
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted By: David Snyder
It may surprise you (maybe even disappoint you?) to know that Classical composers were not usually very innovative with their choice of chords

This matches my understanding as well.

With Bach, the melodic movement of voices is always more important than harmonic movement. So while something could interpreted harmonically, an explanation that's closer to how Bach thought about it might be as a passing dissonance caused by melodic movement.

As for classical music in general, it's often more effective to orchestrate using simpler harmonies and focus on creating tonal color. When it comes to writing for an orchestra, most orchestration books I've seen stick with 4-part harmonies, and additional parts beyond that are referred to as non-essential "filler", which doesn't really change the essential harmony.

Quote:
In Mozart's day they would throw rotten tomatoes at you if you tried to rip off someone else and couldn't come up with something more entertaining and original to please the King.

I've read compelling arguments against this "whole cloth" sort of understanding. Rather, classical composers would often "quote" other people's work, incorporating ideas in other popular music into their own.

So the way to please the King apparently hasn't changed that much.


-- David Cuny
My virtual singer development blog

Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?
Songwriting
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,887
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 18,887
David (Snyder),

When you say...

Quote:
I own the Classical Fake Book and I see a lot more than 1, IV and V going on in there. I sometimes even see chords I have to look up.

... I don't know the Classical Fake Book but it could be that "Classical" is being used in the specific sense and not the general sense.

What the public often refer to as "Classical" music is very diverse and very general and spans centuries of music from before Johann Bach (1685-1750) to beyond Aaron Copland (1900-1990).

The "Classic" period in music, on the other hand, is specific and covers the period from around 1750s to 1820s. One of the key features of the Classic period was that by comparison to the previous Baroque period, music was noticeably less complex. It was also written with more attention to vertical harmony. The incidental harmony of Baroque music arose from intersecting melodies (i.e. counterpoint) more so than consideration of vertical chords (although this was present, it was in the form of figured bass and not chords as we know them today).

After the Classic period came the Romantic period which was much more adventurous in the use of chordal harmony. The Romantic period then moved into Impressionistic and then Atonal music. These two latter periods were highly adventurous from both a harmonic and a non-harmonic perspective.

So back to my original thought... I wonder if the Classic Fake Book is more devoted to the music of the Classic period and maybe the transition periods that lead into and out of the Classic period.

Regards,
Noel


MY SONGS...
Audiophile BIAB 2024
Songwriting
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,326
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,326
OK... I see the point of the OP and I agree. But I also see and understand the dissenting POV that composing and writing are essentially the same.

I personally tend to divide composing and songwriting along the lines of the OP.

To me songwriting is a simpler, more basic form of composing, while composing in it's own right is a bit more detailed and intensive form of songwriting. I place compositions by writers such as Bach, Mozart, Handel, firmly into the composer class while placing writers such as Lennon/McCartney, Guthrie, McDill, into the songwriter classification.

There is a huge difference between a song and one of the compositions of the masters. Structure, use of chords and extensions, and length to mention just a few things. They are different disciplines of writing and require certain skill sets to do effectively. The common thread is that they both involve music and the thought process to create something beautiful with a limited number of notes.

I think perhaps there are a few writers who can successfully cross that line. Jeff Lynn (ELO: Out Of The Blue) and Ian Anderson (JT: Thick as a Brick) are two I can think of that can get close.


You can find my music at:
www.herbhartley.com
Add nothing that adds nothing to the music.
You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.

The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
Songwriting
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 7,758
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 7,758
Hey,

I am not going to argue this point too much 'cause that would be silly and I have songs to write, BUT...

I have actually studied under two Segovia students and as part of that training, we mapped out the chord progressions measure for measure (and sometimes beat by beat) on a lot of Bach. Categorically, without a doubt, or any questions whatsoever he was a master of and pioneer of both harmonic movement and melodic movement. There may have been accidentals but no accidents--every harmonic choice and chord inversion was purposeful in its marriage to the melody.

Even the Renaissance masters were often noted for harmonic genius, not just melody, so I was questioning an oversimplification in a column I was referred to here that is simply not accurate from a musicology standpoint.

As for the "in Mozart's day observation," he never wrote any two pieces of music that sounded the same. That is why he is still around. Sure, there may have been rip off artists back in the day, but the masters of classical (and those who tried to compete with the masters) have always been known for constantly upping the game, always raising the bar.

Last edited by David Snyder; 04/18/17 01:18 PM.
Songwriting
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,665
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,665
Originally Posted By: David Snyder
I am not going to argue this point too much 'cause that would be silly and I have songs to write, BUT...

True, but... Are you sure you're not composing? wink


-- David Cuny
My virtual singer development blog

Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?
Songwriting
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 7,758
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 7,758


smile

Songwriting
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,192
Expert
Offline
Expert
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,192
All songwriting that involves the music is composing.

Not all composing is songwriting.

Arranging may or may not involve composing—usually doesn't. This is subjective.

Working on the book/libretto/lyrics etc. without working with the music is none of the above.


BIAB 2023 Audiophile, 24/60 Core M2 Mac Studio Ultra/8TB/192GB Sonoma, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP
Digital Performer 11, LogicPro
Finale27.4, Dorico5, Encore5, SmartScorePro64, Notion6, Overture5
Songwriting
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,563
Expert
Offline
Expert
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,563
What do you call it when studio technician tweak the process and come up with a sound that could be said to carry the day?
I think Les Paul and Mary Ford's sound was the same audio track offset a microsecond -- presto, echo.
Bob Marley and Peter Tosh on the wah pedal.
The Beatles tech sretting up this long hallway in the building and getting it just right.
Or even just a way of playing, no effects, like Louis Armstrong or Eric Clpton.
All this stuff going on. We mortals find out about it when we open our first Garage Band.

Last edited by edshaw; 04/27/17 05:23 PM.

Link: www.soundcloud.com/ed_shaw (Feel Free to Use)
https://drooble.com/edward.shaw/hymn/index.htm
Biab for WIN 2020 -- Win 10 64bit -- Reaper/Audacity
Zoom R-16 -- Tascam DP-03-SD -- SoundTap -- Crescendo --
Songwriting
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,326
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,326
Originally Posted By: edshaw
What do you call it when studio technician tweak the process and come up with a sound that could be said to carry the day?
I think Les Paul and Mary Ford's sound was the same audio track offset a microsecond -- presto, echo.
Bob Marley and Peter Tosh on the wah pedal.
The Beatles tech sretting up this long hallway in the building and getting it just right.
Or even just a way of playing, no effects, like Louis Armstrong or Eric Clpton.
All this stuff going on. We mortals find out about it when we open our first Garage Band.


Production/engineering. It can certainly be creative but it's not composing or writing. The producer or engineer is getting paid for his/her work under a producer's contract and nothing they do or create is copyright-able by them, as a result.

Last edited by Guitarhacker; 04/28/17 02:30 AM.

You can find my music at:
www.herbhartley.com
Add nothing that adds nothing to the music.
You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.

The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
Songwriting
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,192
Expert
Offline
Expert
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,192
Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
Originally Posted By: edshaw
What do you call it when studio technician tweak the process and come up with a sound that could be said to carry the day?
I think Les Paul and Mary Ford's sound was the same audio track offset a microsecond -- presto, echo.
Bob Marley and Peter Tosh on the wah pedal.
The Beatles tech sretting up this long hallway in the building and getting it just right.
Or even just a way of playing, no effects, like Louis Armstrong or Eric Clpton.
All this stuff going on. We mortals find out about it when we open our first Garage Band.


Production/engineering. It can certainly be creative but it's not composing or writing. The producer or engineer is getting paid for his/her work under a producer's contract and nothing they do or create is copyright-able by them, as a result.

That also goes for arranging unless express written permission is granted by the publisher in advance.

The exception is for works in the Public Domain.


BIAB 2023 Audiophile, 24/60 Core M2 Mac Studio Ultra/8TB/192GB Sonoma, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP
Digital Performer 11, LogicPro
Finale27.4, Dorico5, Encore5, SmartScorePro64, Notion6, Overture5
Songwriting
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,569
J
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
J
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,569
Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
Originally Posted By: edshaw
What do you call it when studio technician tweak the process and come up with a sound that could be said to carry the day?
I think Les Paul and Mary Ford's sound was the same audio track offset a microsecond -- presto, echo.
Bob Marley and Peter Tosh on the wah pedal.
The Beatles tech sretting up this long hallway in the building and getting it just right.
Or even just a way of playing, no effects, like Louis Armstrong or Eric Clpton.
All this stuff going on. We mortals find out about it when we open our first Garage Band.


Production/engineering. It can certainly be creative but it's not composing or writing. The producer or engineer is getting paid for his/her work under a producer's contract and nothing they do or create is copyright-able by them, as a result.

I disagree that it is not composing or writing. If an engineer or producer comes up with the signature riff or signature sound or some other significant creative contribution they have most certainly contributed to the writing of the song!

Of course, I understand that the music business world decided long ago that that contribution does not count as a writing credit. But that is just arbitrary. I have always felt songwriting credits should be more fairly defined and shared among the participants. If The Beatles had not spent so much time together perfecting their craft as a group I would venture to guess they might not have achieved what they did. Likewise had they not had major influence from people like Epstein and Martin they almost certainly would have accomplished much less.

When I am king everyone who contributes gets partial credit! laugh

Songwriting
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,563
Expert
Offline
Expert
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,563
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn

Of course, I understand that the music business world decided long ago that that contribution does not count as a writing credit. But that is just arbitrary. I have always felt songwriting credits should be more fairly defined and shared among the participants. If The Beatles had not spent so much time together perfecting their craft as a group I would venture to guess they might not have achieved what they did. Likewise had they not had major influence from people like Epstein and Martin they almost certainly would have accomplished much less.
When I am king everyone who contributes gets partial credit! laugh


Maybe the producers felt if they just took all the money, it was a fair exchange.
Seriously, it would really open up the Pandora's box if people started claiming effects settings as proprietary smile
I had an Ibanez tremolo pedal that was out of this world. I bought it.
Anyway, thanks for the interesting and enlightening responses to my question.


Link: www.soundcloud.com/ed_shaw (Feel Free to Use)
https://drooble.com/edward.shaw/hymn/index.htm
Biab for WIN 2020 -- Win 10 64bit -- Reaper/Audacity
Zoom R-16 -- Tascam DP-03-SD -- SoundTap -- Crescendo --
Songwriting
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,569
J
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
J
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,569
Originally Posted By: edshaw
Seriously, it would really open up the Pandora's box if people started claiming effects settings as proprietary

I think George Martin did a wee bit more than tweak some settings!

Songwriting
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 14,078
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 14,078
Irrespective of the nomenclature I wish I was better at it. That is all.

Bud

Songwriting
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,820
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,820
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
Originally Posted By: edshaw
Seriously, it would really open up the Pandora's box if people started claiming effects settings as proprietary

I think George Martin did a wee bit more than tweak some settings!


Yes but is George Martin on any of the Beatles' copyrights? Is he named as part of the songwriters? All I ever see is Lennon and McCarthy.


I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"

64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Songwriting
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 12,583
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 12,583
I think we're arguing writing/composing a song versus the resulting sound.

As I just recently heard, does Dwight Yoakam get songwriting credit for Prince's Purple Rain, because his, errr, effects or instrumentation were different?



John

Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD
Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA

BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK

http://www.sus4chord.com
Songwriting
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,326
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,326
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
Originally Posted By: edshaw
What do you call it when studio technician tweak the process and come up with a sound that could be said to carry the day?
I think Les Paul and Mary Ford's sound was the same audio track offset a microsecond -- presto, echo.
Bob Marley and Peter Tosh on the wah pedal.
The Beatles tech sretting up this long hallway in the building and getting it just right.
Or even just a way of playing, no effects, like Louis Armstrong or Eric Clpton.
All this stuff going on. We mortals find out about it when we open our first Garage Band.


Production/engineering. It can certainly be creative but it's not composing or writing. The producer or engineer is getting paid for his/her work under a producer's contract and nothing they do or create is copyright-able by them, as a result.

I disagree that it is not composing or writing. If an engineer or producer comes up with the signature riff or signature sound or some other significant creative contribution they have most certainly contributed to the writing of the song!

Of course, I understand that the music business world decided long ago that that contribution does not count as a writing credit. But that is just arbitrary. I have always felt songwriting credits should be more fairly defined and shared among the participants. If The Beatles had not spent so much time together perfecting their craft as a group I would venture to guess they might not have achieved what they did. Likewise had they not had major influence from people like Epstein and Martin they almost certainly would have accomplished much less.

When I am king everyone who contributes gets partial credit! laugh


So according to your theory... the guy who brings the coffee to the coffee machine and makes the coffee in the studio while the writers are there composing should be given writing credits too? How far do you want to take that theory that anyone who had any sort of influence in the process, no matter how small, should get writing credits?

It's ludicrous to claim someone who inserted an effect in a recorded track should get writing credits. Very few producers or engineers will come up with a "signature riff". That is usually the domain of the musicians. If the musician is a hired studio gun, guess what????? The guy has signed that away to the artist when he signed the work for hire contract. If however, it is a signature riff such as the sax lick on Baker Street, or the guitar lick on In-a-godda-da-vida, for example.... and the creator of said lick is a studio musician.... the artist owns it. The same rules apply. That is NOT, writing the song. As a studio musician, you know that anything you create is the property of the artist who's paying you.

The music world decided that such contributions are not considered "writing the song" because licks and fills and such are not necessary parts of the song. Even a so called signature lick isn't necessary for the song. The verse, chorus and lyrics are.


You can find my music at:
www.herbhartley.com
Add nothing that adds nothing to the music.
You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.

The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
Songwriting
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,272
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,272
Originally Posted By: Janice & Bud
Irrespective of the nomenclature I wish I was better at it. That is all.

Bud


Dang it Bud, you make my brain hurt! You sir, are a bright man! You say so much by saying so little. You're like "knowledge concentrate!"


Chad (Hope that makes it easier)

TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
Songwriting
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,569
J
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
J
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,569
Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
So according to your theory... the guy who brings the coffee to the coffee machine and makes the coffee in the studio while the writers are there composing should be given writing credits too?

Look up George Martin and you prolly won't find "coffee bringer" on his bio! laugh

Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
If the musician is a hired studio gun, guess what????? The guy has signed that away to the artist when he signed the work for hire contract. If however, it is a signature riff such as the sax lick on Baker Street, or the guitar lick on In-a-godda-da-vida, for example.... and the creator of said lick is a studio musician.... the artist owns it. The same rules apply. That is NOT, writing the song. As a studio musician, you know that anything you create is the property of the artist who's paying you.

Obviously that is how the music business works...I acknowledged as much! But just because it is legal does not mean it is right! I think anyone who would use a significant creative contribution and not share a credit is a POS!

Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
The music world decided that such contributions are not considered "writing the song" because licks and fills and such are not necessary parts of the song. Even a so called signature lick isn't necessary for the song. The verse, chorus and lyrics are.

Baloney! Where would Smoke on the Water be without its opening riff? Where would Day Tripper be without its opening? What about In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida? And thousands more songs! Of course those melodic hooks are every bit as important as anything written in words! And probably even more important because I know tons of songs that were hits when most people had no idea what the singer was mumbling!

Songwriting
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,326
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,326
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
So according to your theory... the guy who brings the coffee to the coffee machine and makes the coffee in the studio while the writers are there composing should be given writing credits too?

Look up George Martin and you prolly won't find "coffee bringer" on his bio! laugh

Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
If the musician is a hired studio gun, guess what????? The guy has signed that away to the artist when he signed the work for hire contract. If however, it is a signature riff such as the sax lick on Baker Street, or the guitar lick on In-a-godda-da-vida, for example.... and the creator of said lick is a studio musician.... the artist owns it. The same rules apply. That is NOT, writing the song. As a studio musician, you know that anything you create is the property of the artist who's paying you.

Obviously that is how the music business works...I acknowledged as much! But just because it is legal does not mean it is right! I think anyone who would use a significant creative contribution and not share a credit is a POS!

Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
The music world decided that such contributions are not considered "writing the song" because licks and fills and such are not necessary parts of the song. Even a so called signature lick isn't necessary for the song. The verse, chorus and lyrics are.

Baloney! Where would Smoke on the Water be without its opening riff? Where would Day Tripper be without its opening? What about In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida? And thousands more songs! Of course those melodic hooks are every bit as important as anything written in words! And probably even more important because I know tons of songs that were hits when most people had no idea what the singer was mumbling!


Now you are confusing 2 things.

Riffs created by musicians in the band .......and everything else.

Oh yes, absolutely, the signature riff/lick for the songs mentioned.... are an integral part of the song no doubt. You hear the first few notes of Smoke on the water and immediately know the song. But you're missing a few things here....

All 3 examples were created by band members. These licks are not the product of an engineer with effects, nor were they the product of a hired studio player.

Next... I could do a cover of the song Smoke on the Water, that you would recognize that doesn't contain the signature riff. I could start it with chugging eighth G chords.... That riff, while we all identify the song immediately with it, isn't necessary to the functioning of the song as a song. Grab an acoustic guitar and play the song.... you don't need the signature riff..... start playing a chord and jump into the first verse. We've all heard covers of songs that sounded nothing like the original and we didn't recognize the song until the verse & lyrics started.

So no, signature licks and fills and solos are not necessarily part of the song (from a songwriting POV) especially when they are created by someone not the artist/band. The majority of signature licks are created by the band/artist and are copyrighted material. The non-artist hired guns have signed that copyright away in their contract for hire which means they can not claim ownership of that lick, only that they are playing it and created it..... but not ownership.

Last edited by Guitarhacker; 05/02/17 02:23 AM.

You can find my music at:
www.herbhartley.com
Add nothing that adds nothing to the music.
You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.

The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
Songwriting
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913
R
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
R
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913
Eleanor Rigby.

Songwriting
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,569
J
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
J
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,569
Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
So according to your theory... the guy who brings the coffee to the coffee machine and makes the coffee in the studio while the writers are there composing should be given writing credits too?

Look up George Martin and you prolly won't find "coffee bringer" on his bio! laugh

Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
If the musician is a hired studio gun, guess what????? The guy has signed that away to the artist when he signed the work for hire contract. If however, it is a signature riff such as the sax lick on Baker Street, or the guitar lick on In-a-godda-da-vida, for example.... and the creator of said lick is a studio musician.... the artist owns it. The same rules apply. That is NOT, writing the song. As a studio musician, you know that anything you create is the property of the artist who's paying you.

Obviously that is how the music business works...I acknowledged as much! But just because it is legal does not mean it is right! I think anyone who would use a significant creative contribution and not share a credit is a POS!

Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
The music world decided that such contributions are not considered "writing the song" because licks and fills and such are not necessary parts of the song. Even a so called signature lick isn't necessary for the song. The verse, chorus and lyrics are.

Baloney! Where would Smoke on the Water be without its opening riff? Where would Day Tripper be without its opening? What about In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida? And thousands more songs! Of course those melodic hooks are every bit as important as anything written in words! And probably even more important because I know tons of songs that were hits when most people had no idea what the singer was mumbling!


Now you are confusing 2 things.

Riffs created by musicians in the band .......and everything else.

Oh yes, absolutely, the signature riff/lick for the songs mentioned.... are an integral part of the song no doubt. You hear the first few notes of Smoke on the water and immediately know the song. But you're missing a few things here....

All 3 examples were created by band members. These licks are not the product of an engineer with effects, nor were they the product of a hired studio player.

Next... I could do a cover of the song Smoke on the Water, that you would recognize that doesn't contain the signature riff. I could start it with chugging eighth G chords.... That riff, while we all identify the song immediately with it, isn't necessary to the functioning of the song as a song. Grab an acoustic guitar and play the song.... you don't need the signature riff..... start playing a chord and jump into the first verse. We've all heard covers of songs that sounded nothing like the original and we didn't recognize the song until the verse & lyrics started.

So no, signature licks and fills and solos are not necessarily part of the song (from a songwriting POV) especially when they are created by someone not the artist/band. The majority of signature licks are created by the band/artist and are copyrighted material. The non-artist hired guns have signed that copyright away in their contract for hire which means they can not claim ownership of that lick, only that they are playing it and created it..... but not ownership.

Yeah, I know how the music biz works! It is all about the money most of the time. If a writer can cut another writer out of the credits they know they can pocket more. Likewise, a big artist may get a songwriting credit even when they did not write the song. And then there is the whole history of guys like Jimmy Page stealing music and only giving credit/money when sued later on.

It is kind of a sleazy business in many ways! My point is it should NOT be like that! Everyone who makes a significant contribution to the song should get a credit! And yes, a signature riff is part of the song. If it can be copyrighted, or deemed an infringement were it to be reused, it is obviously part of the song!

Songwriting
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 8,098
C
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
C
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 8,098
JohnJohnJohn Quote: "Everyone who makes a significant contribution to the song should get a credit!"

I found this to be an interesting statement when a person may make an 'accidental' significant contribution to writing a song.

For instance, we know that PGMusic waives any and all rights of contribution of songs written with BIAB/RB and their other products. But, what of the person here on the forum who may provide you specific instructions how to achieve a particular BIAB technique, chord progression or the exact BIAB style that may be critical to your song? A person who, without their significant contribution to you, you could not have written the song as you imagined, intended and completed.

What is the significant contribution difference between a guitar player developing a riff and a forum member providing a style and technique allowing you to create a riff with BIAB?


BIAB Ultra Pak+ 2024:RB 2024, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
Songwriting
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,326
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 9,326
Quote:
Yeah, I know how the music biz works! It is all about the money ALL of the time. If a writer can cut another writer out of the credits they know they can pocket more. Likewise, a big artist may get a songwriting credit even when they did not write the song. And then there is the whole history of guys like Jimmy Page stealing music and only giving credit/money when sued later on.

It is kind of a sleazy business in many ways! My point is it should NOT be like that! Everyone who makes a significant contribution to the song should get a credit! And yes, a signature riff is part of the song. If it can be copyrighted, or deemed an infringement were it to be reused, it is obviously part of the song!


There.... I fixed it for you with bold above^^^^^^^^^

One of the trends has been for an artist to demand writing credits to get a song on their new project CD. Even though they aren't really a writer of the song..... so..as a writer, do you say "no, you're not getting a writer's credit and share" or do you include the artist as a co-writer to get on the CD? Money talks and everything else walks.... Of course you include the writer..... the other option is your song never gets cut and YOU don't make any money. Let's see.... keep driving that $500 beater car or pay cash for a new Lexus???? decisions, decisions.


Your point or opinion is what it is and while it's noble to think this is how the world should be, the simple fact of the matter is, it never will be the way you envision it. Yes, the music business is a rough tough place and from all appearances, it always has been and always will be. CCR, T.O.P and many other bands played grueling schedules to packed houses and made peanuts while the managers got rich. They made bad business deals when they signed. Happens all the time in every business. You just hear about it more in the music biz due to the nature of the biz.


There are many bands and artists who have listed the contributing studio musicians on the jackets giving them credit for playing in a particular song on the CD. I used to read the album covers to see who played what on which song. So according to your comment....

Quote:
Everyone who makes a significant contribution to the song should get a credit!


Let's see..... they got their name on the jacket as the player on a song.... and .... they got at least union scale and possibly more for their time in the studio..... does that qualify as getting their due credit and pay? And.... there's a pretty good chance they were hired to go on the tour to promote the new album as well. So, not only do they get paid for studio time and get their name on the record/CD, they also get the fun and glory and get paid again to play that song live on tour.

As far as sleazy..... well that's in the eyes of the beholder. Personally, I've always thought the music business was a cool business to be in. It's competitive as hell in many cases and you need to get things in writing, but aside from the fact that we play music as the product of our business, it's really no different or less "sleazy" than any other kind of business.

Last edited by Guitarhacker; 05/03/17 02:26 AM.

You can find my music at:
www.herbhartley.com
Add nothing that adds nothing to the music.
You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.

The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
Songwriting
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,139
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,139
This is the age of The Participation Trophy. The pizza guy gets a credit. grin



Regards,


Bob

Songwriting
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,820
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,820
Originally Posted By: 90 dB
This is the age of The Participation Trophy. The pizza guy gets a credit. grin



Regards,


Bob


grin grin grin grin grin grin

PS - I want to be added to the credits. After all I did listen to the song wink


I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"

64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Songwriting
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 12,583
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 12,583


John

Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD
Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA

BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK

http://www.sus4chord.com
Songwriting
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,272
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,272
Originally Posted By: MarioD
Originally Posted By: 90 dB
This is the age of The Participation Trophy. The pizza guy gets a credit. grin



Regards,


Bob


grin grin grin grin grin grin

PS - I want to be added to the credits. After all I did listen to the song wink


Me too! I read your comments about being added to the credits for the song. That's GOT to count for something!


Chad (Hope that makes it easier)

TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
Songwriting
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913
R
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
R
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913


Well played. I should have gone there with my first post in this thread.

Songwriting
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,569
J
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
J
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,569
Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker
it's really no different or less "sleazy" than any other kind of business.

I guess we can agree on that! smile

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Go To
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
ChatPG

Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.

ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.

PG Music News
User Video: Next-Level AI Music Editing with ACE Studio and Band-in-a-Box®

The Bob Doyle Media YouTube channel is known for demonstrating how you can creatively incorporate AI into your projects - from your song projects to avatar building to face swapping, and more!

His latest video, Next-Level AI Music Editing with ACE Studio and Band-in-a-Box, he explains in detail how you can use the Melodist feature in Band-in-a-Box with ACE Studio. Follow along as he goes from "nothing" to "something" with his Band-in-a-Box MIDI Melodist track, using ACE Studio to turn it into a vocal track (or tracks, you'll see) by adding lyrics for those notes that will trigger some amazing AI vocals!

Watch: Next-Level AI Music Editing with ACE Studio and Band-in-a-Box


Band-in-a-Box® 2024 German for Windows is Here!

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 für Windows Deutsch ist verfügbar!

Wir waren fleißig und haben über 50 neue Funktionen und eine erstaunliche Sammlung neuer Inhalte hinzugefügt, darunter 222 RealTracks, neue RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, "Songs with Vocals" Artist Performance Sets, abspielbare RealTracks Set 3, abspielbare RealDrums Set 2, zwei neue Sets von "RealDrums Stems", XPro Styles PAK 6, Xtra Styles PAK 17 und mehr!

Paket | Was ist Neu

Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!

Add updated printing options, enhanced tracks settings, smoother use of MGU and SGU (BB files) within PowerTracks, and more with the latest PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 update!

Learn more about this free update for PowerTracks Pro Audio & download it at www.pgmusic.com/support_windows_pt.htm#2024_5

The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!

The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!

Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.

This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245

The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option

Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!

Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!

For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.

Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.

Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!

Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.

Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.

Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!

Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!

With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!

Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111

Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!

If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.

A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."

"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."

"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."

Forum Statistics
Forums66
Topics81,639
Posts735,348
Members38,524
Most Online2,537
Jan 19th, 2020
Newest Members
OlvaJownDay, Tranner Track, Ely Bass, Barking, SYOTR
38,524 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
MarioD 182
DC Ron 97
dcuny 89
DrDan 70
Today's Birthdays
govinspector
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5