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#455417 - 02/03/18 08:34 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 18080
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Online   content
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Yes, in the studio I listen carefully to any opinion the engineer offers. He or she normally doesn't say much if the producer if good, so when they do say something, it's the product of a lot of experience talking. Good for you, Bob.

And yes, I would quickly go crazy working with anyone who wasn't sharp on theory.
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#455422 - 02/03/18 08:51 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 19067
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
rharv Offline
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Charlie! I spent 5 minutes replying to you only to see a message that the post I was replying to got deleted!

Arrgh. smile

Matt, the more time I spend with them the more I get the group dynamics and intent of their project, so each week I get more comfortable suggesting things. The fact that they are objective and consider my input also encourages this. Some bands don't want to hear it, so I just sit there and push buttons and sliders .. and I'm OK with that too. <grin>
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#455431 - 02/03/18 09:14 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 18080
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Online   content
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Any client who doesn't listen to the engineer is a fool. But how you get them to listen to you shows you have solid people skills, Bob!
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#455451 - 02/03/18 10:46 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: rharv]
Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 4716
Loc: South Carolina
Charlie Fogle Online   content
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Originally Posted By: rharv
Charlie! I spent 5 minutes replying to you only to see a message that the post I was replying to got deleted!

Arrgh. smile


I quickly realized my comments were off point and inappropriate to make. Please excuse my bad judgement.
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#455464 - 02/03/18 12:48 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: rharv]
Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4428
eddie1261 Offline
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Originally Posted By: rharv
So Thursday I had to point out the elephant in the room.


Funny you mention that. Musicians all over Cleveland don't like me much because I have never seen an elephant in the room that I did not quickly point out....

Sometimes even a 400 pound gorilla. (If it's the bass player.)


Edited by eddie1261 (02/03/18 12:49 PM)
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#455484 - 02/03/18 02:40 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: rharv]
Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 8706
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
VideoTrack Offline
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Excellent article, Bob. Thanks for articulating it so well and providing the detail that was needed to show the whole picture.

Many musicians could learn valuable lessons by adopting those practices.
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#455531 - 02/04/18 01:53 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: VideoTrack]
Registered: 12/20/16
Posts: 397
Loc: Gold Coast, Queensland, Austra...
Teunis Offline
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Registered: 12/20/16
Posts: 397
Loc: Gold Coast, Queensland, Austra...
I find this puzzling I ask myself would a person with absolutely no musical understanding be interested in creating music. If so would they not at least attempt to get some basic understanding.

I once played guitar for an old time dance band back in the early 70's. The band leader insisted we could read and her best reader was her trumpet player. She would tell us what tunes we were playing and hand out the sheets. However, she would hand out the sheet say in the key of C the proceed to play in Bb. The next night play the same sheet and play in F or maybe A. I asked the trumpet player how he coped. His reply was " Don't tell her I can't really read. I just work out where she is and follow the dots up and down, I know how long the notes are, but I don't know what's what". My opinion was this guy knew music and did in fact sort of read and transpose on the fly better than most.

Over the years I have spent a lot of time helping people by backing folk in country music clubs. At these country music clubs members come along to sing a song. If you were lucky enough to get a chord sheet of any meaning you often had to listen to what the artist was doing and work things out on the fly. In these cases experience outweighs the ability to read. To be able to play solos based on what the artist was singing and or help them out when they faltered was a priority.

These days I can't read a note but I do understand what should go where. At 69 I can still play guitar blindfolded or behind my head. I just can't play it as well as I did 40 years ago but I still enjoy it and it is great to go around nursing homes (and other places) having people singing along with me and enjoying a good time.

My thoughts

Tony
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#455544 - 02/04/18 04:32 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: Teunis]
Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 8706
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
VideoTrack Offline
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Originally Posted By: Teunis
...These days I can't read a note but I do understand what should go where. At 69 I can still play guitar blindfolded or behind my head. I just can't play it as well as I did 40 years ago but I still enjoy it and it is great to go around nursing homes (and other places) having people singing along with me and enjoying a good time.

To be honest, I can't think of any single thing that could possibly be wrong with that. Not a single thing. Keep at it.
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#455591 - 02/04/18 09:43 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4428
eddie1261 Offline
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Reading, while it is a helpful tool, is not always necessary. You'd just not really get calls for session work where it is a sight reading gig, and there is not a lot of that around much anymore. It is quite easy to get by playing copy dates because you can learn "songs" without learning "music" (they ARE 2 different things). But the statement can never be made that a player who read sis somehow "better" than a player who does not.

The thing about someone with a background comes into play where you go to a rehearsal and the guy leading the song will say "This is in C." You can then immediately envision C-F-G with a Dm, and Am, possibly an Em tossed in somewhere for flavor. THOSE guys are easier to lead around the maze of a brand new song than the ones who have to hear a song 150 times before they know the chord changes. The readers and more heavily steeped in theory players are likely listening to the song for the first time and writing a chord chart, where a guy who doesn't have the chord recognition tool in his bag wouldn't know what to write, only to remember that "at this place change to this chord".

One great example I can give you was a spot in a song in C where there is a breakout section that went Dm, Bdim, F. Gsus, G.... to say that to someone who doesn't know what notes make up that Bdim, you may as well be speaking French to a Cuban. But to tell that guy "B, D F, G# or Ab (however he chooses to think of that note - I would say Ab)" then he can play it. And he has probably played it before without knowing he was playing a Bdim.

It's a personal choice that I don't like to learn by ear, which comes from not liking to play other people's songs like they played them. But back to what I said earlier, and closer to topic, that doesn't mean I think I am better than someone else because they never learned theory. I just have that "tool" in my bag.
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#455875 - 02/05/18 05:25 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 01/29/18
Posts: 14
Loc: Michigan
ZUrlocker Offline
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Loc: Michigan
I have zero formal musical training but I have managed to become reasonably proficient (D level) at 3 chord rock and blues on guitar and bass. I know one scale (pentatonic, ok so maybe that's 2 scales Pentatonic minor and Pentatonic major!). But I have learned enough that I can play and write songs. If you want to make music, especially with others, it is useful to understand the basics of musical language, like chords, keys, what I-IV-V means, etc. But the concepts are not that hard.
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#455893 - 02/05/18 06:32 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: ZUrlocker]
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eddie1261 Offline
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And you probably play more scales than the pentatonic without knowing you are playing them.
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#455894 - 02/05/18 06:38 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 01/29/18
Posts: 14
Loc: Michigan
ZUrlocker Offline
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Only by accident!
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#455904 - 02/05/18 10:04 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 11/19/17
Posts: 34
Loc: uk
duncanwhyte Offline
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Registered: 11/19/17
Posts: 34
Loc: uk
I expect any musical training techniques could be put into biab as an option. So the numbering system could easily work alongside chords, and be voiced as well, whilst you are learning the song. Such auto familiarisation would lead to acquiring a worthwhile skill.
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#455944 - 02/06/18 05:22 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 18080
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Matt Finley Online   content
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In case you didn’t know, BIAB can display chords using Roman numerals, or Nashville notation. You can have the numbers.
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#456107 - 02/06/18 09:10 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 10/08/15
Posts: 961
Loc: Philippines
Trygve Larsen Offline
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Posts: 961
Loc: Philippines
Funny and interesting tread. I have not played any instrument for a very long time. But when I was younger, I used to play Trumpet, guitar, bass, and simple piano. After starting with BiaB i have not played anything, except making/arranging songs in BiaB. I really love BiaB. When I was young and listen to music, I always dreamed about making something similar. And now I can. By using BiaB... I actually stil have a trumpet, a keyboard and a USB Wind instrument. It is just that I am to lazy to start playing again I guess. Or, it is just to much more easy for me to work on stuff in BiaB.
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#456555 - 02/08/18 11:22 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 843
Loc: Ohio-USA
jcspro40 Offline
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I am a Solid D with decades of live playing under me belt....and I can not see anyone without at LEAST a grasp of chord progressions / styles using BiaB to good effect....IMHO....
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#456614 - 02/09/18 08:40 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 05/15/15
Posts: 792
Loc: St. Petersburg , FL
Islansoul Offline
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Registered: 05/15/15
Posts: 792
Loc: St. Petersburg , FL
Originally Posted By: eddie1261
This software provides a great opportunity for people to write songs even if they don't play, so I wonder 2 things. Which group do you fit in?

A. I have had zero music education in my life.
B. I do not play an instrument. All my songs are 100% software created.
C. I play an instrument but not all that well.
D. I play at a fairly proficient level.
E. I am a monster player.

And the second question is for only people who are in group A.

If you have had zero music training, how do you know what to enter into the chord sheet page to create your songs?

When I said zero music training, I meant zero. Like if you don't know that there are 12 keys, how do you know what to put in on bar 1?

This question grew from someone asking me about the software. She said "Oh that's cheating. If that's all that takes ANYBODY can write songs."

So I invited her over. Sat her at the computer. Started Real band. Got her to the chord entry page, and said "Go. Write a song if it's that easy."

She: "What do I do here?"
Me; "Enter your chord progression."
She: "What's a chord?"
Me: "What do you mean what's a chord? You said anybody could do this. Even with no music skills."

And that ended the discussion. (And I likely will never see her again. LOL!)

It is hard for people who play or have played, and/or had training either in school or on stage, to understand that we speak in terms that contain implied knowledge. To tell someone "A major chord is 1-3-5." evokes the question "What's a 1? What's a 3? What's a 5?" WE know that it means the steps of a scale, which would then evoke the question "What's a scale?"

So, again, I am just curious. The people I know here who have been around a while, I know your level of experience and education, but some of the newer names or just people with whom I have never interacted, I am curious to know your music education and experience level, if you read, etc....


I was just about to post a question similar to this. In the steel pan world, most of the players are taught using the rote system. For anyone here who does not know what that means, the rote system is a system where the player is tough strictly by observation, aural communication, and hand guidance (the band leader will come up to the player and move the hands to show which note to play). These people have no musical training, music theory, sight reading skills, or composition skills. This is not just the players but the band leaders and arrangers. Yes, most of the arrangers or band leaders do not have any musical knowledge and somehow they are able to create some very complicated pieces whether an original or just a steel band arrangement. I would say that the players and band leaders/ arrangers are A when it comes to musical education, but E when it comes to playing, but there are steel bands and player, mainly in the states who can read sheet music and understand music theory. As for me, I would say that I'm a C-D with the steel pan, but I don't know much complex theory and I did go to school for music under music production.

I am going to post some videos of famous Panorama tunes for you all to showcase what A level musical knowledge but E playing looks like. Panorama is the biggest carnival musical event in Trinada and Tobago where the steel pan was founded. Each band made up of hundreds of people in the large band category, play a new piece arranged for that band each year for a chance to win $10,000.


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DAWs: Pro Tools, Logic, and Maschine
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#456641 - 02/09/18 01:07 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: Islansoul]
Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 2558
Loc: Sterling, Va
raymb1 Offline
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Posts: 2558
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There are too many examples to count of musicians who play by rote. There are still certain things one has to have some musical knowledge to do. Like Eddie said, how can you enter a chord if you don't know what a chord is? What is a quarter note, what is a quarter note rest, etc...........? You can't play with a band that uses charts to play without knowing how to read. Count Basie's band didn't have music on their stands but they had all the charts memorized. So many instances where one has to have some musical knowledge.
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PG Music News
Notation Enhancements in Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows!

There are Notation Enhancements in the NEW Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows! These include:
•A new button in the Print Options dialog which lets you quickly print a "chords only" fake sheet. You can also access this from the right-click menu on the chord sheet.
•A new track type (Drums) is now available for The Melody and Soloist tracks.
•Clicking close to a stave line will put a note on the stave line instead of between stave lines. (Previously, you had to click extremely close to a stave line to insert a note on The line.)
•Double-clicking on the Standard mode Notation window (or on the time line in Editable or Staff Roll mode) plays the song from the current time location. Previously, it played the song from the beginning of the current bar.
•Holding down the [Ctrl] key and pressing the zoom in/out buttons results in finest possible incremental adjustment in size.
•In The Notation Windows Options dialog, The clefs split point asterisk indicates that C5* is middle C.
•Pressing The space bar plays the song from the current time location, not the current bar.
•The clefs split point can be set by the spin controls.
•The right-click menu in the Editable or Staff Roll mode Notation window has an option to change the current beat resolution. Previously, the only way to do this was to right-click on the time line.
•There's a keystroke entry notation mode - the 'N' mode, which lets you enter a melody entirely using keystrokes. The keystrokes are N to enter a note, up/down cursor to change its pitch, and left/right cursor to move the time line.
•You can now edit any track in the Event List Editor. When The dialog opens, it will show you the MIDI data in the current Notation track.
•You can quickly enter forced accidentals from the right-click menu.

We talk about these new features within our Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows®! New Features, RealTracks, and other content! video:
25:45 - New Features: Easy Entering of Notation with the 'N' Key
36:48 - Change Beat Resolution From the Right-Click Menu
37:15 - Easier Entry of Notes on Lines
37:42 - Asterisk to Indicate Middle C on & Spin Controls
37:53 - Force Accidental from the Right-Click Menu
38:01 - Edit Any Track in the Event List
38:09 - Keystroke Note Entry Mode 'N' for Faster Note Entry
38:28 - Print Chords Only Fake Sheet
38:32 - More Control of Notation Size

Rather read about it?
-Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows® Upgrade Manual
-New Feature Summary - Notation Enhancements

The New Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows SongPicker!

With Band-in-a-Box® 2019, the SongPicker has been redesigned!
-The completely redesigned window shows information for up to 50,000 songs.
-The song list build is much faster. Approximately 150 songs get added per second.
-A progress bar will appear if the song list build takes longer than 3 seconds.
-You can see the chord progression for the selected song in the list. You can copy and paste it to a text file.
-Many filters are available. You can filter the list by subfolders, genre, feel, time signature, style, songs with melody, soloist, lyrics, key signature, tempo range, and the year of file dates.
-You can search songs that have similar chord progressions and/or melody fragments.
-Hotkey! ss+enter opens the SongPicker, ss2+enter opens the Recently Played Songs, etc.

Learn more about the updates with our New Features Video - we've made it easy to find the section you'll need:
2:55 - New Feature: Redesigned SongPicker
21:58 - New Features: SongPicker Enhancements
41:10 - Now Over 10,600 Titles in SongPicker

You can also read all about the new SongPicker within our Online Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows® Upgrade Manual.

RealBand 2019 Online and PDF Manuals Available!

Visit our Online Manuals support page for access to the latest RealBand 2019 for Windows program manuals!

RealBand 2019 for Windows User's Guide: Online Manual | PDF Download
RealBand 2019 for Windows New Features Guide: Online Manual | PDF Download

RealBand 2019 is included in every purchase of Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows! We're having a SALE on Band-in-a-Box® 2019 Upgrade purchases until December 31, 2018 - save over 40% when you purchase your Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows Upgrade! Check out our Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available

Band-in-a-Box® 2019 Online and PDF Manuals Available!

Visit our Online Manuals support page for access to the latest Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows program manuals!

Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows User's Guide: Online Manual | PDF Download
Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows Upgrade Manual: Online Manual | PDF Download

Don't forget.... We're having a SALE on Band-in-a-Box® 2019 Upgrade purchases until December 31, 2018 - save over 40% when you purchase your Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows Upgrade! Check out our Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available

Band-in-a-Box® 2019 on a USB 3.0 Hard Drive - Speed Thrills!

We're excited to say that all Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows UltraPAK and UltraPAK+ orders now ship on a USB 3.0 hard drive!

What does this mean? Faster hard drive transfer rates will enhance the program operations (faster time to generate tracks, reduced audio artifacts) and offer faster transfer speeds (typically up to 3x faster)!

It's a great time to order your UltraPAK or UltraPAK+ Upgrade... they're ON SALE until December 31st!

Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows® New Features!

Our "Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows®! New Features, RealTracks, and other content!" video is now ready! Get to know all about the newest features in Band-in-a-Box® 2019: Click here to watch...

We have listed a table of contents for this video, you'll see it within the YouTube video description, or by visiting this forum post.

RealBand 2019 - A New Look!

Have you opened up your RealBand 2019 yet? You may notice that we've given it a fresh new look! In fact, there are now 3 different looks to RealBand.

See for yourself! Within the program, visit Options | Icon Set and choose from: Classic, Modern 1, or Modern 2.

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