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It doesn't expose the limitation of the software. It exposes the limitation of the user... like an instrument.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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What is modern music? Is it the boom boom boom window rattling sound I hear when a car goes up the road? I think that was 20 years ago! 
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It doesn't expose the limitation of the software. It exposes the limitation of the user... like an instrument.
Kinda like a group of intermediate guitar players blaming their guitars for why they aren't getting soloist gigs? I am agreeing with most of what you are saying. Those who crap on the chart topping songs could not create those songs. They don't understand that music or that market. And I agree the limitations in BIAB songs are at least in part based on the limitations of BIAB users. But, I suspect the tool may have limitations for the exact same reason! Maybe it was built by folks not intimately familiar with modern music? I look at the latest release and wonder, are producers of modern music really clamoring for more Klezmer RealTracks? Some have pointed out that more tools are needed and I tend to agree with that. What BIAB excels at is creating authentic sounding classic tracks in country, blues, jazz and rock. It does such an incredible job at that task that you can generate a complete classic sounding song using only BIAB. So I guess that is my main point. BIAB can be used as-is, straight up to produce a classic country song or classic rock song but for modern music that is more varied and complex and less dependent on classic patterns...well, BIAB becomes one tool of many rather than the whole toolbox. And that's ok!
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This general topic has come up at least a half dozen times since I joined the forums 7 years ago. And every time it has surfaced, one extremely cogent point gets lost in the discussion. BIAB is NOT a DAW. It HAS a DAW built into it as a convenience to users, but it is NOT a DAW. It is a musical generation tool. MUSIC generation, not drum loop generation. The best analogy I can use here is to say that a rock is a hammer because you CAN use a rock to drive nails, though it was never intended to be used that way. As far as "current music" quality, what you are hearing in your mind's ear is not the raw music. You are hearing the effects of high end mastering, possibly higher end than can be done without extremely expensive and advanced mastering plugins that a lot of us hobby level users do not have. (I use Izotope.) The actual content of the music is not that much better, and in some cases not as good, as some of the stuff created just by the users of this forum. Remember that A does not equal B on this forum, meaning that the roster of members here does not necessarily equal the number of copies of BIAB out there. If it did, then the number of users would grow consistently with every sale. I was on this forum for about 8 weeks BEFORE owning the program so I could read, listen and learn without commenting. (There are some who refer to that as "the good old days", but that's another story.) When that song hits the radio and you hear it, you don't get to hear it during the fermentation period. The writing itself is the focal point for me. Again note, FOR ME. That Drake tune that is listed as the top song is a piece of crap, resolving to vulgarity to draw attention and sell units to that lowest common denominator audience who think it is somehow "underground hip and cool" to curse on the radio. Songwriting in almost every genre is sadly and pathetically formulaic. You may have heard this on youtube, but it's a fun listen so check it out again. 6 country songs laid on top of each other. 6 song mashup
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
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That Drake tune that is listed as the top song is a piece of crap, resolving to vulgarity to draw attention and sell units to that lowest common denominator audience who think it is somehow "underground hip and cool" to curse on the radio. I don't care for the song myself BUT it's not about cursing to try and be "hip and cool." That's the culture. It's how many people actually talk...not to impress, but without thinking at all. It's habit. To NOT do that at this point would be cutting edge. You may have heard this on youtube, but it's a fun listen so check it out again. 6 country songs laid on top of each other. 6 song mashup To me, this is a truly pathetic example. Those songs have been pitch and time shifted to make them work. You can do this with ANY genre from ANY age of music and get the same type of result. I can't believe musicians, especially those who use technology at all point to this as an example. They should know better. For people that don't know how music is produced, I would better understand. Sorry man, I don't think it makes you point. Those songs, however, sound pretty similar on their own.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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To me, this is a truly pathetic example. Those songs have been pitch and time shifted to make them work. You can do this with ANY genre from ANY age of music and get the same type of result.
Not quite true but that is moot. The point of it is the word "formulaic". Also research the famous Pachelbel chord progression if 1-5-6m-4 (think "Don't Stop Believin'", and hundreds of others). That is the point for the example, is that songs are formulaic. "You write with that chord pattern, and make sure your song is EXACTLY 3:34 long, and we will polish your turd and get it on the radio for you!" Pitch and time shifting doesn't matter. All those songs use the same progression. That's kind of the definition of formulaic. Of course there are popular chord progressions. Even the free-est of spirits understands the sonic rules of chord relativity. Chords have to be drawn from the scale of the root chord to sound any kind of pleasing. Your comment about being "the culture" is the problem for me. I don't want to be black. I am not going to live in that "culture". I am fine with being white in my culture, free of sexual abuse of women, drugs as a daily way of life.... Just how much of a music background do you have exactly, "Hear" To Learn? (Was that a music pun or do you truly not know "hear" from "here"?) I looked back 6 weeks in the forum and you have apparently never posted a song. Some of your comments seem deliberately outlandish and provocative, and appear to be there just to stir up controversy. That makes me wonder if you are involved with music at all or just an internet troll looking to poke the bears. Please do respond to that so we know to whom we are speaking. If you are truly "hear" to learn, you don't appear to be learning as much as arguing with people.
Last edited by eddie1261; 04/27/18 11:11 AM.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
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Not quite true but that is moot. The point of it is the word "formulaic". Also research the famous Pachelbel chord progression if 1-5-6m-4 (think "Don't Stop Believin'", and hundreds of others). That is the point for the example, is that songs are formulaic. "You write with that chord pattern, and make sure your song is EXACTLY 3:34 long, and we will polish your turd and get it on the radio for you!" Pitch and time shifting doesn't matter. All those songs use the same progression. That's kind of the definition of formulaic.
Of course there are popular chord progressions. Even the free-est of spirits understands the sonic rules of chord relativity. Chords have to be drawn from the scale of the root chord to sound any kind of pleasing.
Totally agree. It's a progression I, and many others like. Your comment about being "the culture" is the problem for me. I don't want to be black. I am not going to live in that "culture". I am fine with being white in my culture, free of sexual abuse of women, drugs as a daily way of life.... I'm not condoning it; just stating that unfortunately that is more and more becoming the norm. Even network TV does it's best to tip toe around it with bleeps or cutting the sound. Things have changed. I would no doubt say for the worse. Just how much of a music background do you have exactly, "Hear" To Learn? (Was that a music pun or do you truly not know "hear" from "here"?) Oh trust me, I listen plenty. I think you will see a fairly low number of posts from me overall. I read a lot, and say things now and then. Many times they will go against what many hear believe, yet they may be more in line with what is happening in the music industry. I looked back 6 weeks in the forum and you have apparently never posted a song. You are correct. In those 6 weeks I haven't. Never? I have posted 2. You commented on 1 of them I believe. Some of your comments seem deliberately outlandish and provocative, and appear to be there just to stir up controversy. Me or you? lol I find it humorous you would be the one to say this; but I'll play along. I think on this forum my statements may seem that way at times. It's simply a different view that I hold verses many here. It's not an unpopular view. Just perhaps not as popular here. I'm not going to change it to appease people. Sorry if that doesn't fit your mold. That makes me wonder if you are involved with music at all or just an internet troll looking to poke the bears. I have significance beyond this forum so no need to gain it here. I do believe in doing what I can to bring something different to, hopefully, help the product overall. I love the company, and I love the product. I believe I even have the respect of the people I respect on the forum. I may be wrong, but feel that may be the case. That doesn't mean we always agree, and I have learned A TON from many people on here. I believe they also know that, as I have expressed it. Troll? Far from it. Look for the guy/girl that ONLY seems to stir things up with his/her opinions and doesn't really offer anything beyond be against everything and I think you will find a troll. Please do respond to that so we know to whom we are speaking. If you are truly "hear" to learn, you don't appear to be learning as much as arguing with people. Again, from you? Ok. There are people on the forum who know me and to some extent my credentials. I don't feel the need to list them to validate myself. I'm here for those who are looking for something other than is provided currently. There are some AMAZING writers and musicians here. They know, undoubtedly, I feel that way. There are also some people who excel WAY beyond the scope of this forum. I highly treasure them. I'm sorry if it bothers you when someone calls you out on calling something "crap" that you couldn't do. After all, I feel that is the heart of what happened here. I told you I don't care for it either, but I also am man enough to admit that's beyond what I can do. I'm talking the WHOLE package. Not just the simplicity of the song. Just like you said they don't want to see you rap. They don't want to see me either!  So if you think I'm a troll with no musical ability; oh well. I seriously could care less. Not meant to offend. Just saying. (by the way, I may have misspelled "here/hear" in this to add to the fun and confusion)
Last edited by HearToLearn; 04/27/18 11:39 AM.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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HearToLearn, I like and respect you, not that that matters much here as I too will not hesitate to call out the fanbois around here! 
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What was this topic about again? I forgot.
 Steve BIAB/RB 2022, Pro Tools 2020, Korg N5, JBL LSR 4328 Powered Monitors, AKG/Shure Mics.
PC: Win11 PRO, 4 TB M2 SSD, 2 TB HD, 128 GB Memory
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What was this topic about again? I forgot. How GREAT of a songwriter I am!!! LOL!!!
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023?
2. Send it to us.
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What was this topic about again? I forgot. Steve, I like you, and know you to be intelligent, so I will teach you how the "Off Topic" section of the forum works. Someone picks a topic and you want to make sure you don't stay on topic. Otherwise, it would be named "On Topic." The goal is simply to go "Off Topic." Now that you understand, we will reset; and play again. Who-hoo! Let's see where it goes this time. Here we go... From the original poster : is it just me , I notice the big changes that are.
1 The price of plugins falling to an all time low.
2 the price and availability of the daws and their longevity.
3 How does biab stand in all of this in price and longevity.
Looking for your thoughts, we are after all (biab users) getting on a bit to put it mildly.
I know my son in his thirties thinks its a great program for older, country ,bluesy tunes as he puts it, and amazed at the way it works and sounds but not really for his generation.
What's your thoughts !
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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Steve BIAB/RB 2022, Pro Tools 2020, Korg N5, JBL LSR 4328 Powered Monitors, AKG/Shure Mics.
PC: Win11 PRO, 4 TB M2 SSD, 2 TB HD, 128 GB Memory
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<...snip...>
BIAB is NOT a DAW.
<...> Repeat that 100 times until you get it. BiaB is an auto-accompaniment app that has a ton of other features added on for your convenience. Yes, it does have it's limitations, and as someone who writes aftermarket styles, I have discovered many of them. Every app has limitations and BiaB as an auto-accompaniment app does it better than anything else out there, that includes the software apps that couldn't compete and hardware/software devices like arranger keyboards. Then there is another limitation, the styles. This is not the fault of the BiaB app, there are perhaps zillions of styles that could be written. If there is nothing for the young user, it is because there aren't any styles for them (or they haven't discovered the aftermarket styles I've written). And BiaB doesn't do modal very well, major and minor modes work fine but it isn't designed to do all 12 modes. But then perhaps 99% of all popular music has been written in either the major or minor mode. IMHO BiaB is the ultimate practice tool, almost any chord progression or the chords to almost any song, at any speed, and in thousands of different styles. I also think it is a good scratch pad that can be exported and then imported to a DAW to take the very good output of BiaB and with some tweaks, make it 'ready for prime time'. It has basic notation functions, quite good MIDI harmonizing functions, some very basic DAW functions and so on. I see these as a convenience because for example, you can't produce what you can in Encore or Finale. But that's not the point. I find it nice to see things in Notation and it helps me as a practice tool. Much of today's music depends on a full fledged DAW and with the right style you can export output from BiaB, import it into a DAW and get some very modern music. But if using the DAW as a musical instrument, you have to learn how to use it and practice your skills to be good at it. Also, BiaB styles tend to be a bit on the generic side. And this is how I think it should be. Early in my style writing career one of my customers asked me to write a style for Elvis Presley's "Don't Be Cruel". It has a very song-specific guitar riff. So I did a Don't Be Cruel style, and as soon as I tried it on another song that guitar riff shouted "DON'T BE CRUEL" and I realized the style was good for one thing only. Plus it would have been much easier to export a generic rock/swing style into a MIDI Sequencer or DAW and then add the guitar riff. It would have taken less time than it did for me to incorporate that riff into BiaB. BiaB stands alone today. It was so much better than the competition that they faded away. IMHO every computer musician needs these tools (1) A DAW and/or MIDI sequencer (2) BiaB (3) A Notation app. Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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WOW never expected all this on this posting brilliant to get all your views I feel I really know some of you now. It did change to (modern song or not posting.) I think everyone is aware of Bruno Mars, can you get just a piano to play a song in biab ??. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekzHIouo8Q4I think its our age, generation influences, on the music we grew up with and we naturally write that way. Its right it should be that way that's why we have all the variety in music we have today. Its just a circle how many older songs from another generation are arranged/STYLED/produced Like the song in the link above. Think about it.
Last edited by beatmaster; 04/28/18 08:45 AM.
win 10 64 bit 16gb,i7 chip, ssd 500gb, m-audio air, ,Roland BK-7M, 1000,shure sm7b,sonar,acid,mixcraft, variety of plugins.Sample tank 3,Kontakt. TC Helicon Voicelive 3 2 . https://beatmaster1.bandcamp.com/releases
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can you get just a piano to play a song in biab ??.
Add the piano track you want and mute the rest of the tracks.
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Looks like we can do modern then !!
win 10 64 bit 16gb,i7 chip, ssd 500gb, m-audio air, ,Roland BK-7M, 1000,shure sm7b,sonar,acid,mixcraft, variety of plugins.Sample tank 3,Kontakt. TC Helicon Voicelive 3 2 . https://beatmaster1.bandcamp.com/releases
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This topic harkens back to my first reading of HTL's comments. I find them to be very offensive. My solution was to ignore him. Just how much of a music background do you have exactly, "Hear" To Learn? (Was that a music pun or do you truly not know "hear" from "here"?) I looked back 6 weeks in the forum and you have apparently never posted a song. Some of your comments seem deliberately outlandish and provocative and appear to be there just to stir up controversy. That makes me wonder if you are involved with music at all or just an internet troll looking to poke the bears. Please do respond to that so we know to whom we are speaking. If you are truly "hear" to learn, you don't appear to be learning as much as arguing with people. I agree with Eddie's evaluation. He is a troll intent on making waves. I made an uneasy peace with him and decided to just ignore him.
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This topic harkens back to my first reading of HTL's comments. I find them to be very offensive. My solution was to ignore him.
I agree with Eddie's evaluation. He is a troll intent on making waves. I made an uneasy peace with him and decided to just ignore him. Sorry you feel that way Eddie and Donny. I don't think he's a troll and he contributed to the "Paradox of You" challenge as I have so he's not a complete troll. I read him as a strange sense of humor kind of guy like I am and sometimes people on the forum may take more offense than others to oddball comments we share. Just keep it laid back guys, there's nothing to see here. or to learn......
Steve BIAB/RB 2022, Pro Tools 2020, Korg N5, JBL LSR 4328 Powered Monitors, AKG/Shure Mics.
PC: Win11 PRO, 4 TB M2 SSD, 2 TB HD, 128 GB Memory
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This topic harkens back to my first reading of HTL's comments. I find them to be very offensive. My solution was to ignore him.
I agree with Eddie's evaluation. He is a troll intent on making waves. I made an uneasy peace with him and decided to just ignore him. In the 6 years I have been here folks like HearToLearn have contributed to improving this forum by changing it from a fan forum to one where critical conversation is possible. Now we can discuss both the amazing features as well as the warts without being shunned for being negative! This is a forum for a commercial product that we all pay actual money to use. It is good for the forum and good for the product to have critical conversations!
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A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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