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#508275 - 12/10/18 09:09 AM [RealBand] VST track levels
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eddie1261 Offline
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Is there a way to make those track hotter if everything amplitude, gain and volume level is already at max (127) levels? It seems that the only way I can play along on a VST synth to try out different parts is to pull the RB generated tracks down to like almost completely to the left at -24db in order to hear my manual input. This has always been the case since I started with like 2009 or whenever I first got RB.
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#508277 - 12/10/18 09:18 AM [RealBand] Re: VST track levels [Re: eddie1261]
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DeaconBlues09 Offline
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Originally Posted By: eddie1261
Is there a way to make those track hotter if everything amplitude, gain and volume level is already at max (127) levels? It seems that the only way I can play along on a VST synth to try out different parts is to pull the RB generated tracks down to like almost completely to the left at -24db in order to hear my manual input. This has always been the case since I started with like 2009 or whenever I first got RB.


My overwhelming experience is that the VST's internal volume controls "hijack" the overall volume of the track, whether in BiaB, RB, or Reaper, such that when you adjust the volume w/in BiaB's mixer when the VST is active, absolutely nothing happens. Just adjust the plugin's volume control.
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#508431 - 12/10/18 04:01 PM [RealBand] Re: VST track levels [Re: eddie1261]
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rharv Offline
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Try the Trim knob in the VST(i) window.

It is also possible to put PGPeakLimit on the track and have a peak limiter boost the output of the synth.

What do your meters tell you?
If you insert the PGRTA plugin after the synth in the VST window does it look like a good signal, or pretty feeble?

Also, having to pan things to a certain side to hear your synth hints that your synth output is on the other side .. why? Generally a VST synth would record centered and in stereo.

If you are in RB (the above assumes you are), are you using MONO or Stereo tracks when you record?
Does the input signal in the VU match the side you are recording? (L/R)

Personally I have not experienced this issue so I'm asking a lot of questions.

Which VST synth are you trying to use?

Quote:
This has always been the case since I started with like 2009 or whenever I first got RB.


That's a long time, especially since it sounds like a set up issue.
Knowing how you work may help. How do you play the VST synth?
Does it happen after recording the track (during playback) also?
In other words, if you record it does it still play back at a low level?
Or just while actually playing/recording the track?

If they are different during playback than recording, we'll have more questions on your equipment/routing. .. and Drivers


Edited by rharv (12/10/18 04:03 PM)
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#508604 - 12/11/18 09:36 AM [RealBand] Re: VST track levels [Re: rharv]
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eddie1261 Offline
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Originally Posted By: rharv
Try the Trim knob in the VST(i) window.


Anything right of straight up 12 makes it clip.

Quote:
It is also possible to put PGPeakLimit on the track and have a peak limiter boost the output of the synth.


Sure is! Should I have to? Can't they write this where all those hoops are not necessary?

Quote:
Also, having to pan things to a certain side to hear your synth hints that your synth output is on the other side .. why? Generally a VST synth would record centered and in stereo.


I didn't think I said anything about panning. I said that I have to drop the RB created audio tracks down to -24db in order for my real time play on a VST synth to be heard. Again, I shouldn't have to do that. Everything I record in MIDI data is dead center as there is no other option until converting to audio and doing any panning desired. I want to be able to play along with the VST to learn what I want to record and not have to be a one take guy. I am rarely if ever a one take guy. More like a 25 take guy. I don't play all that well anymore. (frownie face)

Quote:
If you are in RB (the above assumes you are), are you using MONO or Stereo tracks when you record?


Huh? Whatever it generates is what I am playing against. When I DO add manual tracks, they are always mono. I suspect you are speaking to manually added tracks.

Quote:
Does the input signal in the VU match the side you are recording? (L/R)


I don't know what you are asking there. I am recording MIDI data at this point so there is no left or right, which your use of "side" indicates.

Quote:
Which VST synth are you trying to use?


One of like a dozen, and at this point the levels issue is across the board, so that's kind of moot. The template I have set up is a piano, an organ, a string section, 2 vocal sections (male and female), a drum machine, and a couple of synths for some unique sounds they can produce.

Quote:
How do you play the VST synth?


I don't know how to respond to that other than to say on an M-Audio MK3 keystation. How many ways are there to play a VST?

Quote:
Does it happen after recording the track (during playback) also?


I generally convert them to audio because I have to do that for them to be available for editing. And I would do that anyway for portability. I use the VSTs for specific sounds I want, and if I recorded tracks and left them as MIDI tracks when I sent the song to Rog for his wizardry, he would have to have the exact same VSTs to be able to mix me, or use substitutions, and I want the sounds I used.

At this point I would be happy just if my internal metronome worked. I used to have a sidestick click me in. That just stopped working one day, months, maybe years ago. I changed no settings, did nothing at all except hit R to record one day and there was no count in. Even now having upgraded to 2019, that has not changed. No clickee trackee. (Yeah, I could use your click track idea, buy as I have asked software manufacturers for years, why should I have to? After paying what to me is a lot of money for this - since I don't make money with it to earn it back - everything is supposed to work. Click track, VU meters... all of it. It's supposed to work and not require duct tape workarounds for provided functions. That is like a word processing program suddenly not being able to print, and the fix is "Copy the text and past it into another program and print from there." No. Fix the deficiency.) If it never worked I would not be as offended. The fact that it worked and just stopped working one random day is what gets the short hairs on the back of my neck up. And when everybody's idea of fixing it is always "reset to default" I get even more perturbed. Ideally, software should NEVER have to be "reset". Resetting things is failure for an IT guy. You are one of those IT guys so you understand that concept. I shudder to think about how many hard drives get wiped and an OS reloaded because the technician was either too lazy or incapable of troubleshooting to find what caused the issue. I was the 2nd kind of tech. I would spend 8-10 hours locating a problem when a format and reload would have taken 1. I don't even own a white flag!!

Hope you are well up there and have recovered from the beating the Buckeye Nation laid on That School Up north.


Edited by eddie1261 (12/11/18 04:32 PM)
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#508608 - 12/11/18 09:50 AM [RealBand] Re: VST track levels [Re: eddie1261]
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eddie1261 Offline
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Harv, here's my metronome panel. Is something in there wrong? Note that it worked for a long time and then just stopped with my having never touched this panel.



Hit R to record, crickets.
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#508704 - 12/11/18 04:30 PM [RealBand] Re: VST track levels [Re: eddie1261]
Registered: 05/30/00
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rharv Offline
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I hear the Metronome just fine, so just trying to help.
I agree, your situation seems frustrating.

In MIDI Devices I have the default synth set to Coyote DXi
If I hit Record I hear the Metronome.

I also tried using the 'Write to Track' option in the RB2019 Metronome, and I got a MIDI track with data and could again hear the click as played from the track (better than my Click.MID idea).

Did you possibly change your default MIDI synth to something that doesn't produce a click sound on MIDI channel 10?
My Metronome window looks much like yours except I have the count in set to zero (not one).
But if I hit Record I do hear a Metronome.
This is true both here and in another location.

What is your selected Default DXi/VSTi synth in the MIDI Devices area?

/Options-Preferences-MIDI tab-MIDI Device

The metronome should send to this device. Can it play a click sound on MIDI channel 10?

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#508713 - 12/11/18 04:51 PM [RealBand] Re: VST track levels [Re: eddie1261]
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eddie1261 Offline
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I think my default synth is Cakewalk TTS-1. I can try setting it to Coyote, but if I do that and it works again I will toss a rope over a beam because it was something that simple..

Okay went in and set it back to Coyote and still crickets. Dead silence.

Should the port be on 1?
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#508728 - 12/11/18 06:45 PM [RealBand] Re: VST track levels [Re: eddie1261]
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rharv Offline
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FWIW the Port setting in the Metronome is set to 1 here .. and works

Man, this must be frustrating.
Maybe it only works in the state up north??
<grin>

Honestly I wish I could help more but running out of ideas
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#508742 - 12/11/18 07:57 PM [RealBand] Re: VST track levels [Re: eddie1261]
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eddie1261 Offline
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What gets me is that it is BOTH computers. Maybe my MIDI source is wrong. On Coyote it is on channel 10 and says STANDARD where I'd otherwise have an instrument selected. DO I need to go in and tell it to play a sidestick or a closed hat? One I lay drums down there is the count off but I am going to be taking a run at a symphonic kind of piece here soon, and some of the movements will be completely arhythmic and I anticipate an issue if I don't have a measures structure to work by. Yeah I can record quarter note sidesticks and adjust it to the tempo of the section, but that is, again, something I shouldn't have to do. Maybe I will chat up the support guys tomorrow and see if they can remote in and take a look.

I want to do something in 62-39 time, Oh wait. That's not a valid time signature. That is the score of the OSU victory this year.

I have to sit down with the manual from my new MIDI controller and read about the buttons. I may have that set up wrong in RB because the volume slider on the controller does nothing. And it used to control the volume until I had to reinstall it. I am going to share some pics with you tomorrow about the MIDI setup. My controller seems to show up twice for some reason and under 2 different names. That won't fix the metronome problem but I will get my volume control back. Volume is what, MIDI control parameter 7? That doesn't appear to be in the data stream somehow.

I was away from MIDI too long and now I have to remember all this stuff.
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#508746 - 12/11/18 09:21 PM [RealBand] Re: VST track levels [Re: eddie1261]
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eddie1261 Offline
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Unbelievable. I set the metronome to be on port 32 and it works again. I had to go through 32 ports to make it work, but it works again.
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#510339 - 12/17/18 06:54 AM [RealBand] Re: VST track levels [Re: eddie1261]
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eddie1261 Offline
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And in other news..... I had posted somewhere that the volume slider on my M-Audio MK3 was no longer working. That is only half right. It works on the Cakewalk TTS-1 synth but not the other plugins I use.

Stranger and stranger it gets.
Confusing MIDI can be.
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#510499 - 12/17/18 03:48 PM [RealBand] Re: VST track levels [Re: eddie1261]
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rharv Offline
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Control Change 7 is not recognized by all VST synths. Many VST synths don't recognize any CC messages.
IMO the 'GM' synths should .. but not all of them do.
Sometimes it's simply not you or your hardware, it's the people that wrote a synth with a 'GM sound set' and then called it a GM synth even though it doesn't meet many of the other standard GM specs..

Just because a VST has a GM sound set (the patches line up), it doesn't mean they support all of the GM features.
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#510812 - 12/18/18 06:02 PM [RealBand] Re: VST track levels [Re: eddie1261]
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Jim Fogle Offline
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I'm sure someone has mentioned this but MIDI has two continuous controller numbers dedicated to volume changes, CC#7 (Volume) & CC#11 (Expression).

CC#7 sets the maximum volume level a track can create. Normally you want to set CC#7 at the beginning of each track in a song file and then leave it alone.

CC#11 changes the volume level within a track, You use it like you change the waveform envelope in a DAW to change track volume level in real time.

If you need a quick review of MIDI continuous controller numbers forum member Bob Norton has a webpage with a list and short description +++ HERE +++
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#510949 - 12/19/18 07:36 AM [RealBand] Re: VST track levels [Re: eddie1261]
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eddie1261 Offline
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Jim, and where would I "set" that parameter? There is no place on the controller to set it. That leaves RB. The fact that it works in Cakewalk TTS-1 and not in the plugins tells me the issue is in the plug in, and I have no idea how I would edit that. I knew it was controller 7 but I don't know how to change it in Real Band, IF it can be changed in these VSTs.

After YEARS of playing a stage rig that was a MIDI marvel, I am back to learning basic MIDI again....
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#510993 - 12/19/18 10:59 AM [RealBand] Re: VST track levels [Re: eddie1261]
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Jim Fogle Offline
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Eddie,

EDIT > MIDI sub menu commands can be used to insert cc events. The commands can even be used to manually insert volume control (CC7) events on an audio track. I would try using the "Fill", "Change Velocities" and "Velocity Dynamics".

When you widen a track lane you expose a line where you can use a mouse click to insert volume nodes (the line is blue colored) or gain nodes (the line is green colored) and then change the value of the node by click to hold and drag up or down or drag left and right along the timeline.

You can only have volume or gain node events using the timeline method.

It's frustrating having a tool (like the keyboard) but not be able to use it to its fullest potential, especially when you have fully exploited it in the past.


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#511227 - 12/20/18 05:44 AM [RealBand] Re: VST track levels [Re: eddie1261]
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eddie1261 Offline
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In detail!! Thank you!!! I'll try that today.

More testing shows that Harv was correct in that some VSTs simply don't recognize the volume slider and some do. This particular piano doesn't, but the pianos in the TTS-1 do. I'll get by.


Edited by eddie1261 (12/20/18 06:04 AM)
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#511238 - 12/20/18 06:40 AM [RealBand] Re: VST track levels [Re: eddie1261]
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silvertones Offline
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Check out the MIDI Drivers page for the Soft Synth Volume trim. Read the hint that pops up.
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#511337 - 12/20/18 11:42 AM [RealBand] Re: VST track levels [Re: silvertones]
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Jim Fogle Offline
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Silvertones,

Please provide a link to the webpage you're speaking of. I did a web search on soft synth volume trim and came up with web posts from just about every DAW and audio production website you can think of.
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#511389 - 12/20/18 03:37 PM [RealBand] Re: VST track levels [Re: silvertones]
Registered: 04/08/11
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eddie1261 Offline
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That's in the ballpark John, but my issue now isn't just the levels, though that IS there. My biggest thing now is more that the volume control slider on my MIDI controller doesn't work with any synth but Cakewalk TTS-1. Changing that trim value from 0, to +6 then to +12 didn't change my output at all. Apparently some of these VSTs I use are "locked" and I cant' change much about them. This one in particular is a free one called 4Front Piano and it is a great piano. I just can't use the volume slider. That led me to test more of the free ones I found and none of them allow me to use the volume slider on the controller. Curiously, it works fine on TTS-1. This is not a fatal flaw but I'd liek it to work like it's supposed to.
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#511928 - 12/22/18 11:51 AM [RealBand] Re: VST track levels [Re: eddie1261]
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silvertones Offline
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You can change, at least on my controller, what that slider does. To call it a volume slider is not really correct. It's a data slider. Semantics I know but the point is find out what that VSTi responds to. Maybe CC11. Change the data slider on the controller.Most controllers default that slider to CC7 and the TTS1 is set up that way as well.I will research the VSTi. What is your controller?



Edited by silvertones (12/22/18 11:52 AM)
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