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#516422 - 01/09/19 07:20 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Having problems saving patches on Thru track? 611 won't help...
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 2235
Loc: Lake Keowee, South Carolina
MountainSide Offline
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Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 2235
Loc: Lake Keowee, South Carolina
As another forum member, Noel96, reminds us to run BIAB, 32 and 64 bit, in Administrator mode to help with saving songs another thing that I've noticed is that with each new update to 2019 my Admin settings revert back to the normal non-admin mode. I have to reset both programs to "run as administrator" with each new update.

Anyone else notice this?

Jeff


Edited by MountainSide (01/11/19 09:21 AM)
Edit Reason: renamed title to correct issue
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#516424 - 01/09/19 07:30 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Having problems saving songs or patches in 2019? This might help.... [Re: MountainSide]
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Rob Helms Offline
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Jeff so far I am not having any problems saving songs in either 32 or 64 bit . Have not checked the run as admin but will do so.

On a side note I just worked on a house up on lake a Keowee yesterday, it was in the reserve. Nice area. Long drive back though 2 hours.
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#516473 - 01/09/19 10:51 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Having problems saving songs or patches in 2019? This might help.... [Re: MountainSide]
Registered: 10/31/08
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Noel96 Offline
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Hi Jeff,

Do you set the BBW.EXE and BBW64.EXE to 'run as administrator'? If so, when an update is loaded, these files are replaced -- I wonder if this explains losing this setting.

I set the 'run as admin' mode on the startup shortcuts for the program. In addition, I'm sometimes asked during installation (not usually the updates) whether or not I want to install shortcuts... I de-select those options if they appear because I already have shortcuts and I don't want those over-written (and thus lose my settings).

Hopefully something in the above might help you solve the annoyance you're experiencing.

All the best,
Noel
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#516665 - 01/10/19 03:36 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Having problems saving songs or patches in 2019? This might help.... [Re: Noel96]
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 2235
Loc: Lake Keowee, South Carolina
MountainSide Offline
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I think you just hit on the solution Noel. When I do the updates, I let the program generate new shortcuts and I use those and delete the old shortcuts. That must be the problem, the new shortcuts do not contain the "run as admin" option and so when I click on those, I lose the "save" function.

Good detective work there Noel!

Jeff
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#516675 - 01/10/19 04:51 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Having problems saving songs or patches in 2019? This might help.... [Re: MountainSide]
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Noel96 Offline
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I guess the next update will be the test! Fingers crossed smile
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#516693 - 01/10/19 06:38 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Having problems saving songs? This might help..not solved with update 611 [Re: Noel96]
Registered: 12/06/11
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Loc: Lake Keowee, South Carolina
MountainSide Offline
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Loc: Lake Keowee, South Carolina
I take all of this back Noel, there does seem to be a problem with the 611 update remembering patches selected on the THRU channel. Prior to the 611 update, BIAB, both 32 bit and 64 bit, would remember my selected external patches on both the Melody and the Thru tracks. Since the 611 update, the Melody is remembered but the Thru track is not.

I've double checked the "Run as Admin" functions on both the icons and the EXE..no issues there. I've "Return to Factory Settings" including MIDI drivers and Patch Maps, reinstalled my INI (patch map) files. Reinitialized my external synth, re-established all synth internal parameters and MIDI flows and verified it works in Cakewalk and Reaper.
Re-saved each of my songs with the correct Thru patch but it "forgets" them each time.

Oddly enough, everything works fine in RB.

This was not an issue until the 611 update.

Jeff


Edited by MountainSide (01/10/19 10:33 AM)
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Win10, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2022, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive Touch, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.16

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#516759 - 01/10/19 12:56 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Having problems saving songs? This might help..not solved with update 611 [Re: MountainSide]
Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 17824
Loc: Australia
Noel96 Offline
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Loc: Australia
Interesting!

Jeff, why not change back to the 610 update. All you need to do is download from the link below and install it. This will step BIAB back to the previous build.

https://www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm

Regards,
Noel
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#516808 - 01/10/19 03:24 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Having problems saving songs? This might help..not solved with update 611 [Re: Noel96]
Registered: 12/06/11
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Loc: Lake Keowee, South Carolina
MountainSide Offline
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Loc: Lake Keowee, South Carolina
Have continued to look into Noel. Strangely the 32 bit 2019 BIAB does not remember the midi thru patches but RB does. This did not come up until update 611.

In addition to the steps taken in my previous posting, I have opened previous working 32 bit song files and have re-assigned and saved patches in those songs. Upon opening those songs later the patches are not remembered. I've also duplicated this approach in the 64 bit version....same results.

By the way, in neither of these cases am I using the VSTi, the DAW plug-in nor any drag and drop, its just a plain assignment of external patches of my .PAT file to the midi through channel 5 section in the mixer.

So the 611 upgrade is effecting both the 32 bit and 64 bit programs in the same way.

As Noel suggested, I'll have to now drop back to BIAB update 610. Otherwise, BIAB has become unworkable for me.

Jeff


Edited by MountainSide (01/10/19 04:00 PM)
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#516815 - 01/10/19 03:54 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Having problems saving songs? This might help..not solved with update 611 [Re: MountainSide]
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 2235
Loc: Lake Keowee, South Carolina
MountainSide Offline
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Noel, I'm going down a deep, dark hole! I've re-installed update 610. No difference on either the 32 bit nor the 64 bit BIAB program. Patches are not remembered from one song to the next. I've tested dozens of songs that until several days ago played perfectly.

Whats even worse, is that I again returned all drivers, and program settings to "factory settings' and reloaded my .PAT file again. No change.

To make matters even worse, even if I manually put in the correct patch, play the song to insure its the correct patch and then hit "save"..it shows the right patch. But when I hit play it reverts back to another completely different patch on my synth.

Just to check my own sanity, I re-initialized my external synth, my midi patch bay and my audio interface thinking there could be something amiss there....nope its all in BIAB. And whatever it did, update 610 will not correct it. Keep in mind, RB doesn't exhibit any of this behavior. It remembers dozens of patches on dozens of tracks on dozens of song.

So there you go...I'm playing songs from the Great American Song Book with lead parts being played by a grizzly analog synth patch. Tell me it ain't so !

Jeff


Edited by MountainSide (01/10/19 03:58 PM)
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#516827 - 01/10/19 04:35 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Having problems saving songs? This might help..not solved with update 611 [Re: MountainSide]
Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 17824
Loc: Australia
Noel96 Offline
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Jeff,

The ultimate "Return to factory settings" is to delete the files INTRFACE.BBW and MYSETUP.DK -- these are found in \bb\Preferences. I usually rename them by adding .old to the name.

These files that contain user settings and when BIAB can no longer see them, the program is forced to create new ones. You will need to set up your MIDI and Audio again after doing this.

The process for doing this is... close all instances of BIAB, go to \bb\preferences, delete the files, restart BIAB.

At some point, it's probably a good idea to fully shut down your computer and restart it, too. That's the best way for clearing out memory left-overs.

Regards,
Noel
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#516921 - 01/11/19 03:50 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Having problems saving songs? This might help..not solved with update 611 [Re: Noel96]
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 2235
Loc: Lake Keowee, South Carolina
MountainSide Offline
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Registered: 12/06/11
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Loc: Lake Keowee, South Carolina
Noel thanks for your continued help and support. I deleted the files INTRFACE.BBW and MYSETUP.DK by adding old to the file name as you suggested. Shutdown the computer for 5 minutes and restarted with BIAB 2019 32 bit. No change, the program does not remember the correct patches.

But I have a much better understanding of the problem now. Keep in mind, I rolled back to update 610 but I don't think that's the problem or the solution. The problem is in how 2019 is handling the higher banks in the .PAT file.

As us MIDI users are aware, the program uses three bits of info to use the higher banks: the patch number, the MSB bank number and the LSB bank number. The problem is in the LSB bank number....its off by one digit! In other words, when 83.63.4 is saved, it actually saves 83.63.3

I thought at first this my be the old Roland - Yamaha 1-based patch numbering issue (which can be temporarily changed in BIAB or permanently changed in the .PAT file. Nope, makes no difference as the 1-based issue effects the first number not the MSB or LSB.

Then I though my .PAT could be corrupt. So I recreated those new from my Cakewalk .INI files and actually downloaded new .INI files just to be sure mine weren't bad. Loaded the new .PAT file, no change. Compared to my original .PAT file, no difference...a mirror image of one another.

When I select the correct patch that I want to use for a song on the THRU channel or the melody channel they play correctly at that time, its only when they are saved and later pulled up do I see the LSB difference.

So I'm at a complete loss now...any ideas?


Edited by MountainSide (01/11/19 09:14 AM)
Edit Reason: chnaged LSB to correct number
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#516968 - 01/11/19 09:19 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Having problems saving patches on Thru track..not solved with update 611 [Re: MountainSide]
Registered: 12/06/11
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Loc: Lake Keowee, South Carolina
MountainSide Offline
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A further update to this issue. The melody track saves fine, it only the Thru track that is not saving the correct MSB / LSB info. And its always the same, it saves an LSB value one digit lower that the correct number.

I hope PG is seeing this. Has any of our beta testers seen issues like this?

Jeff
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#516976 - 01/11/19 09:39 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Having problems saving patches on Thru track..not solved with update 611 [Re: MountainSide]
Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 17824
Loc: Australia
Noel96 Offline
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Registered: 10/31/08
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Loc: Australia
Hi Jeff,

I've passed a link to this thread on to the developers. You've put a lot of effort into this and have uncovered some important information.

I haven't seen any issue like this with the Thru channel.

If I have any more ideas, I'll pass them on but, at the moment, it looks like there is something that's just not doing the job correctly.

I'm sorry that my suggestions haven't helped. That standard procedures that work most of the time.

Regards,
Noel
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#516987 - 01/11/19 10:11 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Having problems saving patches on Thru track..not solved with update 611 [Re: MountainSide]
Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 741
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Blake - PG Music Online   content
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Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 741
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
By default Thru track settings do not save in song files. You can change the setting here:

1. go to File > Save Special > Save Song with Patches & Harmony
2. check Save/Load Thru Settings with songs
3. click [Close]

With factory settings, Save/Load Thru Settings with songs is disabled.
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PG Music Inc.

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#516998 - 01/11/19 10:37 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Having problems saving patches on Thru track..not solved with update 611 [Re: MountainSide]
Registered: 10/31/08
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Noel96 Offline
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Thanks, Blake. That's handy to know.
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#517009 - 01/11/19 11:52 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Having problems saving patches on Thru track..not solved with update 611 [Re: MountainSide]
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Matt Finley Offline
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I didn't realize that, either.
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#517016 - 01/11/19 12:23 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Having problems saving patches on Thru track..not solved with update 611 [Re: Blake - PG Music]
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MarioD Offline
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I learn something new about BiaB everyday.
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#517029 - 01/11/19 01:51 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Having problems saving patches on Thru track? 611 won't help... [Re: MountainSide]
Registered: 12/10/15
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Mike Head Offline
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Hi smile

Yes indeed good catch I found that out a while back.
Another thing to consider re one number lower .
This will happen if the synth is Yamaha as they count the patches from 1 not Zero based as normal midi, Biab takes care of this and deduct one from the patch number so say for Choir ahh Yamaha patch (voice) 53 you get 52 the normal midi patch number for Choir ahh, this way you still hear the intended voice.
Such thing are done in Pat files in Biab and ini files in Cakewalk and instrument scripts in Cubase,
Just a thought sorry if you all ready know this.
Mike
See below for extract from Yamaha ins def, for Cakewalk
[XG lite Bank 0]
0=1 Grand Piano
1=2 Bright Piano
2=3 Electric Grand Piano
3=4 Honky-tonk Piano
4=5 Electric Piano 1
5=6 Electric Piano 2
6=7 Harpsichord
7=8 Clavi
8=9 Celesta
9=10 Glockenspiel
10=11 Music Box
11=12 Vibraphone
12=13 Marimba
13=14 Xylophone
14=15 Tubular Bells
15=16 Dulcimer
16=17 Drawbar Organ
17=18 Percussive Organ
18=19 Rock Organ
19=20 Church Organ
20=21 Reed Organ
21=22 Accordion
22=23 Harmonica
23=24 Tango Accordion
24=25 Nylon Guitar
25=26 Steel Guitar
26=27 Jazz Guitar
27=28 Clean Guitar
28=29 Muted Guitar
29=30 Overdriven Guitar
30=31 Distortion Guitar
31=32 Guitar Harmonics
32=33 Acoustic Bass
33=34 Finger Bass
34=35 Pick Bass
35=36 Fretless Bass
36=37 Slap Bass 1
37=38 Slap Bass 2
38=39 Synth Bass 1
39=40 Synth Bass 2
40=41 Violin
41=42 Viola
42=43 Cello
43=44 Contrabass
44=45 Tremolo Strings
45=46 Pizzicato Strings
46=47 Orchestral Harp
47=48 Timpani
48=49 Strings 1
49=50 Strings 2
50=51 Synth Strings 1
51=52 Synth Strings 2
52=53 Choir Aahs
53=54 Voice Oohs
54=55 Synth Voice
55=56 Orchestra Hit
56=57 Trumpet
57=58 Trombone
58=59 Tuba
59=60 Muted Trumpet
60=61 French Horn
61=62 Brass Section
62=63 Synth Brass 1
63=64 Synth Brass 2
64=65 Soprano Sax
65=66 Alto Sax
66=67 Tenor Sax
67=68 Baritone Sax
68=69 Oboe
69=70 English Horn
70=71 Bassoon
71=72 Clarinet
72=73 Piccolo
73=74 Flute
74=75 Recorder
75=76 Pan Flute
76=77 Blown Bottle
77=78 Shakuhachi
78=79 Whistle
79=80 Ocarina
80=81 Square Lead
81=82 Sawtooth Lead
82=83 Calliope Lead
83=84 Chiff Lead
84=85 Charang Lead
85=86 Voice Lead
86=87 Fifths Lead
87=88 Bass & Lead
88=89 New Age Pad
89=90 Warm Pad
90=91 Poly Synth Pad
91=92 Choir Pad
92=93 Bowed Pad
93=94 Metallic Pad
94=95 Halo Pad
95=96 Sweep Pad
96=97 Rain
97=98 Sound Track
98=99 Crystal
99=100 Atmosphere
100=101 Brightness
101=102 Goblins
102=103 Echoes
103=104 Sci-Fi
104=105 Sitar
105=106 Banjo
106=107 Shamisen
107=108 Koto
108=109 Kalimba
109=110 Bagpipe
110=111 Fiddle
111=112 Shanai
112=113 Tinkle Bell
113=114 Agogo
114=115 Steel Drums
115=116 Woodblock
116=117 Taiko Drum
117=118 Melodic Tom
118=119 Synth Drum
119=120 Reverse Cymbal
120=121 Fret Noise
121=122 Breath Noise
122=123 Seashore
123=124 Bird Tweet
124=125 Telephone Ring
125=126 Helicopter
126=127 Applause
127=128 Gunshot


Edited by Mike Head (01/11/19 02:03 PM)
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#517037 - 01/11/19 02:35 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Having problems saving patches on Thru track..not solved with update 611 [Re: Blake - PG Music]
Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 2235
Loc: Lake Keowee, South Carolina
MountainSide Offline
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Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 2235
Loc: Lake Keowee, South Carolina
Wow Blake, you solved the problem! Good job! Your solution was much easier than the LSB / MSB rathole I was chasing down. I was looking at .INI file modifications with Zerobased patch mapping.

You guys really know this software despite the hundreds, maybe thousands, of configurations that us Users have with our software, synth and VSTi collections.

My sincere appreciation and thank you,

Jeff
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