It’s been a decade since I can recall a good discussion of this. What is the best MIDI sound you can get for BIAB?
There are hardware MIDI synths such as the Roland Integra-7 that I use. A hardware synth might be easier to set up and use less computer resources, but it requires real-time playback to render a song. So let’s forget about the setup aspect. Concentrate on the question this way: if you wanted to buy something to play MIDI from within BIAB that sounded the absolute best, regardless of cost or convenience, what would you buy?
Note: must support music of all genres; also assumes you have a better-than-good computer.
Any ideas?
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
It’s been a decade since I can recall a good discussion of this. What is the best MIDI sound you can get for BIAB?
There are hardware MIDI synths such as the Roland Integra-7 that I use. A hardware synth might be easier to set up and use less computer resources, but it requires real-time playback to render a song. So let’s forget about the setup aspect. Concentrate on the question this way: if you wanted to buy something to play MIDI from within BIAB that sounded the absolute best, regardless of cost or convenience, what would you buy?
Note: must support music of all genres; also assumes you have a better-than-good computer.
Any ideas?
For me it would be something I don’t own and I can’t afford nor justify but most likely the full blown version of Kontakt. It provides really nice sounding instruments with lots of add on options. (I guess one could use Kontakt within BIAB. However I’d be inclined to pull the MIDI tracks into a DAW where I had more options).
My thoughts Tony
HP i7-4770 16GB 1TB SSD, Win 10 Home, Focusrite 2i2 3rd Gen, Launchkey 61, Maton CW80, Telecaster, Ovation Elite TX, Yamaha Pacifica 612 BB 2022(912) RB 2022(2), CakeWalk, Reaper 6, Audacity, Melodyne 5 Editor, Izotope Music Production Suite 4.1
Matt, for me nothing has really changed in regards to this question in the past 10 years.
BIAB is still GM and use of the more sophisticated VSTi for midi sound is still in beta testing on my machine for BIAB. As a result Coyote Forte still would be running on my system except it is not compatible with BIAB64.
I once owned an Integra 7 and the sounds were awesome. I found it a little hard to setup initially and after getting it setup, I learned I had spent a lot of money on a lot of sounds I'd never use. I purchased it because of the superior sounding guitar patches compared to soft synth patches I had tried. Matt Finley was a great assistance in helping me get a working Pat file for the guitar sounds. In use, I utilized about 60 patches from a total or more than 6,000.
In contrast, I purchased SampleTank Max on sale and also had some points from previous purchases to apply and got a great soft synth and libraries at a very reasonable price and find the sounds I use to be on par with comparable Kontact or other similar software I've auditioned. Expert users are earning a living using the same SampleTank Max software but they have brains and talent to properly manipulate and articulate it at a professional level. My guess is that knowing how to expertly use a software will yield better results over having the most expensive and comprehensive software and not know how to get the most out of it.
For me it would be something I don’t own and I can’t afford nor justify but most likely the full blown version of Kontakt. It provides really nice sounding instruments with lots of add on options. (I guess one could use Kontakt within BIAB. However I’d be inclined to pull the MIDI tracks into a DAW where I had more options).
My thoughts Tony
Tony, I have "...full blown version of Kontack" and will be beta testing in the new BIAB64 in the weeks/months to come. But I suspect, like you, I am always more inclined to work at that level in my DAW.
For me it would be something I don’t own and I can’t afford nor justify but most likely the full blown version of Kontakt. It provides really nice sounding instruments with lots of add on options. (I guess one could use Kontakt within BIAB. However I’d be inclined to pull the MIDI tracks into a DAW where I had more options).
My thoughts Tony
Tony, I have "...full blown version of Kontack" and will be beta testing in the new BIAB64 in the weeks/months to come. But I suspect, like you, I am always more inclined to work at that level in my DAW.
Tony, I have the identical workflow, i.e. BiaB to DAW with Kontakt only in the DAW.
Dan, I have had five BiaB tracks going to five different Kontakts with no problems what-so-ever. I did that just as an experiment and will probably never use Kontakt in BiaB due to my workflow.
Matt, if I were working only in BiaB Kontakt would be my choice of synths. Mostly because of third party patches. Many can be instrument specific while some are more generic.
I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Well what flavour of gm do you like? Do you want to work within the computer or are you prepared to send your midi out to an external synth and sound system, and forgo in the box rendering via vsti etc.
I in fact do both, on my big boys system I have a 24inch all in one high spec pc, sitting on the music stand on the top of and running midi to and from my Yamaha CVP 405. This gives me a high quality GM set other Yamaha midi voices over 800 of them including a full XG set and Panel voices. All playing through the Pianos sound and speaker system. I run a pat file in BIAB that I wrote to give me access to all of these via high bank settings and selection.
However on my workhorse system on my high spec laptop I use a midi controller keyboard this of course has no internal voices. To maintain a good degree of compatibility between the 2 systems I use the Yamaha xg lite VSTi that I put on the forum and its pat file. As my default vst This gives me a fairly good set of matching voices for roughing out and making quick On board renders So I guess what I am saying is try to use as near midi vst or external as you hope to finally hear the song through.(pre rendering to audio if at all!)
Yes I know all gm is supposed to be the same, but believe me the same gm set on Yamaha , Korg , or Roland sound quite different for the same patch number. In the end its down to personal choice and to a certain extent what you have got used to from your own keyboard. Most of all have fun and enjoy your music. Mike
For me it's TTS in BiaB and better synths in the DAW
Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2022, Realband, Harrison Mixbus 32c version 9.1324, Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
I should have made it more clear that of course we can use hardware or soft synths in a DAW. I’m interested here in what you use in BIAB without going to a DAW (or RealBand). Thanks.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
I should have made it more clear that of course we can use hardware or soft synths in a DAW. I’m interested here in what you use in BIAB without going to a DAW (or RealBand). Thanks.
Inside of BIAB I use Halion 6. Once outside Kontakt, Sample Tank and many of the instruments included in Ableton.
I've used TTS-1 even before returning to Band-in-a-Box in 2011. I have TTS-1 set up as my default soft synth in both the 32 and 64 bit versions of Band-in-a-Box.
I considered "building" a high quality instrument set to use in Sforzando but lost interest. It would take a lot of work and what I already have is acceptable.
The multi timbrel, gm compatible model seems to be dying out in computer software. I don't think the demand is there. Either that or no one wants to pay what it would cost to develop to put together a group of instruments of equal quality to the single instrument developers like Kontakt, IK Multimedia or Steinburg.
The approach to providing voices to midi instruments that +++ MultiTrack Studio +++ takes is unique. The instruments are modeled so they occupy little storage space. The program has a built-in general midi compatible instrument collection that contains over 100 instruments including a drum kit.
I presume the best sounding general midi compatible instruments available at a reasonable price would be an inexpensive consumer keyboard by Casio, Ketron, Korg, Roland, Yamaha or no name. Only keyboard manufacturers seem to be interested in providing multi timbrel instruments. There is a lot of competition for the few customers that desire multi timbrel capability so pricing is extremely competitive. Heck, even Creative has quit including midi ports or instruments with their Soundblaster audio cards or add-on software. Professional audio cards have never included instruments that I know of. I don't know of any current professional or consumer software solutions for gm2, multi-timbrel compatible midi players. Single voice instruments have won this contest.
Last edited by Jim Fogle; 01/20/1904:55 PM. Reason: Added final thought.
As I said earlier I use TTS as well I use BiaB as a scratch pad I never finish the songs there., unless it is a simple live song to play. I prefer to mix down in a DAW
Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2022, Realband, Harrison Mixbus 32c version 9.1324, Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
I have tried quite a lot over the years. First one that i really liked was an Soundblaster Audigy ZS 2. You can put your own GM2 sfz files in it's memory banks too. Had a hardware breakout box with spdif and also volume potted headphone jack. Alas only PCI, not present any more in my latest computer. Even found x64 drivers at some point unavailable from Creative then, made by 'David', an Audigy fan. Sound quality was quite good. Bought a PCIe to PCI riser even to get it working, but never tried it sofar.
I used Hypersonic 2 for quite a while after that, sounded v better than Coyote Forte, and was GM2. All the Roland stuff and TTS etc i never really liked, especially the sounds chosen mainly. Japanese taste for sounds i guess.
For over a year i have been using Halion 3 now, and for GM2 i never found anything IMO 'better' sounding all over. But for you (Matt) as Jazzer you might not like the loops for some samples like saxes. I have bought Sampletank and Omnisynth 2 even, quite OK if it works, but due all those hassles with that friggin' IK licensing every time again, and the crummy way to get GM working properly i gave up on IK all together. I have no experience with sForzando .. you?
Alas for Halion 3 and Hypersonic 2 you'll need an eLicenser etc .... F
Fiddler, I've tried the Halion SE, but even though it was perfectly installed, I've never been able to make a sound. I ended up disinstalling it, as being a free product, there's no support for it.
I use the edirol hypercvanvas which is the same as the TTS. In a reply to a previous post Peter Gannon said that PG Music balance their midi styles on the Roland sounds which is what the TTS is.
And as its free - see the no brainer post above about getting it with the free download of cakewalk it seems to me the best solution for a soft synth in BIAB
I've also got the coyote and the forte and the TTS sounds are the best - subject to the bug that means one kick drum does not respond to velocity changes but that's easily remedied in the BIAB settings adn I can't hear the difference in a mix
I recently dug out my old version of Native Intruments Bandstand and, with the help of jBridge, have it working in BIAB 64. To my ears better than most of the other freely available synths like TTS1 IMHO.
I recently dug out my old version of Native Intruments Bandstand and, with the help of jBridge, have it working in BIAB 64. To my ears better than most of the other freely available synths like TTS1 IMHO.
Yes I have Bandstand working on windows 7 32 bit and like it, haven't tried it on windows 10 64 bit yet, I think I tried it, but couldn't get it to work, so just wondering if its windows 10 you have it on?
At the moment Halion is probably my favourite default synth.
Windows 10 (64bit) M-Audio Fast Track Pro, Band in a Box 2024, Cubase 13, Cakewalk and far too many VST plugins that I probably don't need or will ever use
I have never been able to get the Halion 3 free version to make one single sound. I can’t even find a sound library in it.
Last edited by RobH; 01/21/1903:30 AM.
Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2022, Realband, Harrison Mixbus 32c version 9.1324, Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
I presume the best sounding general midi compatible instruments available at a reasonable price would be an inexpensive consumer keyboard by Casio, Ketron, Korg, Roland, Yamaha or no name. Only keyboard manufacturers seem to be interested in providing multi timbrel instruments. There is a lot of competition for the few customers that desire multi timbrel capability so pricing is extremely competitive.
I am still with Jim on this in my set up as above i get over 800 top quality midi voices to use in BIAB, plus i can use the 6000 BIAB styles played through to my Clavinova audio line input against a predefined chord progression SGU from BIAB and play live over the top and record in the clav to wav including mic a VH controlled by BIAB root chord output on chanel 9 Cant ask for more. Mike
When using BiaB with one GM synth, I use the Ketron SD2.
I prefer external hardware sound modules. Unfortunately I'm not wealthy enough to buy every one available, so my experience is very limited. I bought the SD2 on the recommendation of an old BiaB forum member, Mac (remember Mac?). I'm glad I listened to him.
The SD2 has a very good GM sound set. All the sounds I've used range from very good to excellent.
My experience with sound modules, is that there is another that sounds better with one particular sound, but not as good with another.
Plus what I think is an excellent sound might not be your idea of an excellent sound. If I had a tenor sax voice that sounded like Stan Getz and you wanted one that sounded like John Coltrane, the Getz voice might not be good for you.
So it's hard to make a recommendation. I have over a half dozen external synths, some with thousands of voices, but when I go for a General MIDI sound set, I use the SD2
When using BiaB with one GM synth, I use the Ketron SD2.
FYI, The Ketron SD2 modules is now replaced by the Ketron SD1000. It has 512 new orchestral sounds, far better than the SD2 sounds. I use this sound expander in my BIAB setup.
Fiddler, I've tried the Halion SE, but even though it was perfectly installed, I've never been able to make a sound. I ended up disinstalling it, as being a free product, there's no support for it.
As i have Halion Sonic in BIAB, and HS SE loads besides that in Cubase as default for GM and is working fine. 64bit location: C:\Program Files\Common Files\Steinberg\Shared Components.
There's no 32bit version, you'll have to jBridge the 64bit one ....
It works fine on my system with BIAB 64bit, see picture. It sounds quite like Halion Sonic itself .....
I can only think of eventual solutions: Probably not set to GM mode, it cannot find the vstsound file, or some output setting is not functioning right. Older versions of SE i read on a Steinberg forum had some output problems ... F
@ Musiclover Yes I am using Bandstand with Win 10 64bit with BIAB 64 and jBridge.
It seems that the Halion 3SE free version comes with no sound sets. You are expected to already have a version of Cubase installed which allows Halion to use the GM set that is included in Cubase.
@ Musiclover Yes I am using Bandstand with Win 10 64bit with BIAB 64 and jBridge.
It seems that the Halion 3SE free version comes with no sound sets. You are expected to already have a version of Cubase installed which allows Halion to use the GM set that is included in Cubase.
Thank you. I vaguely remember trying to install it on windows 10 but that was 32 bit, no success, but would like to have a go now on 64 bit windows 10.
Did you have to take any additional steps to activate it, as researching this it seems that some people had to do a registry hack and add some keys to get it to work ok?
Windows 10 (64bit) M-Audio Fast Track Pro, Band in a Box 2024, Cubase 13, Cakewalk and far too many VST plugins that I probably don't need or will ever use
When using BiaB with one GM synth, I use the Ketron SD2.
FYI, The Ketron SD2 modules is now replaced by the Ketron SD1000. It has 512 new orchestral sounds, far better than the SD2 sounds. I use this sound expander in my BIAB setup.
In your opinion, is it worth the money to replace the SD2 with the SD1000?
(I think the membranes in my wallet may be shrinking soon)
I use the free vstsynthfont64 (included with biab)and it's good enough for me. I found a free 4GB! GM soundfont / Sf2 to fill it. https://sites.google.com/site/strixsoundfont/dsoundfont scroll to the ultimate dsoundfont. 4 versions from lite to ultimate
[quote=Notes Norton]When using BiaB with one GM synth, I use the Ketron SD2.
In your opinion, is it worth the money to replace the SD2 with the SD1000?
(I think the membranes in my wallet may be shrinking soon)
Notes
With no doubt, my answser is yes. But take time to watch some vids on the net and read other user comments on the forums. Then you'll be able to decide. In general, sounds of the Ketron SD1000 are more precise than the SD2.
[quote=Notes Norton]When using BiaB with one GM synth, I use the Ketron SD2.
In your opinion, is it worth the money to replace the SD2 with the SD1000?
(I think the membranes in my wallet may be shrinking soon)
Notes
With no doubt, my answser is yes. But take time to watch some vids on the net and read other user comments on the forums. Then you'll be able to decide. In general, sounds of the Ketron SD1000 are more precise than the SD2.
@ Musiclover Yes I am using Bandstand with Win 10 64bit with BIAB 64 and jBridge.
It seems that the Halion 3SE free version comes with no sound sets. You are expected to already have a version of Cubase installed which allows Halion to use the GM set that is included in Cubase.
Thank you yet again, your reply motivated me to have another go again, to install Bandstand which now works fine in windows 10. I like the sounds in it too.
Windows 10 (64bit) M-Audio Fast Track Pro, Band in a Box 2024, Cubase 13, Cakewalk and far too many VST plugins that I probably don't need or will ever use
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