PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums Band-in-a-Box for Windows PG Music comes so close to the printing function, then does not complete it

I borrowed the thread title from a new forum poster, Greg Tango. It sums up my feelings about Biab's print function nicely.

Myself and others have been talking about this for years. I'm going to be the squeaky wheel about this just like Pipeline was for the VST. If PGM can create a brand new VST then they can fix all these print issues as well.

1. Clean up and combine elements of the Notation Options window, the Print options window and the Lead Sheet Options window. They still after all these years confuse the heck out of me and I can just imagine others without my experience. Here's some examples.

You want to print a chart. Say you're in the Leadsheet window. That's a logical place to be for an experienced player used to reading charts. Also known as what? Leadsheets! Of course somebody might look there. There's an option box there so you make some changes. Does that affect printing? NO! Is there at least a popup saying if you want to print this you're in the wrong Options window? NO. Next point.

At first glance why does Notation Options change the printing but Leadsheet options doesn't? Does Notation Options indicate anywhere that these changes flow to Print? NO!. You finally figure that out, make some changes. Next point.

Now you go to Print Options and check Preview Graphics. If the preview shows the chords too close to the melody notes on the staff below you have to exit the Preview and you're back to Print options. Anything there about changing the chord spacing? NO! Why not? You're in Print Options, jeesh. You have to open Notation Options and reset the chord spacing there. Is this obvious anywhere? NO! You just have to grok it yourself or somebody explains it to you. You figure that out and reopen Print Options and see if that did it. If you don't like it then you have to do that routine again. Now, another thing...

In the Preview Graphics window that shows what the actual chart looks like, there is an OPT button in the top menu bar. You're not happy and need to make more changes. Does that OPT button go back to Print Options? NO! It opens a small pixel size window! What kind of logic is that? Next.

Every time you close/reopen the Print Options it doesn't remember what you did such as do you want to print the first chorus, last chorus or whole song. That goes away every time. Another bug that's been there as long as I can remember.

2. How 1st/2nd endings are displayed. You can change the chord spacing but can't do anything about those endings spacing. They're way too close to the staff and if there's a chord there it's impossible to read.

The problem with 1st/2nd endings could be fixed if the print function allowed individual spacing between the staves. As it is now, the whole song has to be equal spacing. The only control we have is how many staves on a page. If stave 4 is the one with the repeat endings, just allow us to put more space between staves 3 and 4 to allow the 1st ending number and the line that goes over it to be say twice as large and allow room for a chord to be placed above it. The rest of the stave spacing could stay the same if a user wanted.

There's a similar issue with the spacing between the song title and the top of the page as well as spacing between the song title and the first Stave. Many times I only need a few single line spaces somewhere to make one stave that carried over to page 2 fit on page 1. I don't want to be forced to create an equally spaced stave for that.

3. You have font size in Leadsheet Options and Notation options as percentages. Print Options has it as a default of 24. Why percentages in two of these and a simple number in one?

4. I can understand the Leetsheet is for folks who want to follow along on the screen while the song is playing so they may want a different font size or spacing from what is needed to print. Ok, when you open Leadsheet Options have it clearly say this is display only, not for printing. Notation Options would be the same. Notation Options should be for how the Notation looks when you're either looking at Notation or editing/creating Notation. Nothing to do with printing.

I just reviewed again the Print help window. No mention of these endings or codas. They are talked about extensively in the Notation Help window. When you click on the Print Preview link it does show an example of a chart. Old Folks At Home. A dead simple song with triad chords and nothing else. Yes, a song like that displays great because there's nothing beyond the most basic things in it! Try creating an example song with more complex chords like a Ebm 6/9 where the extensions are displayed vertically in parentheses that takes up more vertical space with 1st/2nd endings and a coda and show everybody what that looks like. Trust me, users won't like it.

The VST is being praised because it attracts a more professional level of user who may not have considered Biab in the past. Well, what kinds of songs will that level of user create? Old Folks At Home? C'mon guys use Biab's own song creation functions to come up with something complex and cool, and use that to demonstrate the print functions.

After it's been corrected and actually made useful of course.

Many users don't want to buy a dedicated, expensive and very complex notation program just to produce good charts for band use. They're not writing full musical scores. Biab is almost there guys, fix it and it will turn into a great feature.

Bob

I tend to agree. It's so close but just doesn't have the edge. Probably not incredibly difficult to resolve these nuances.

Yes and for 15 years we've been saying that. Over and over and over...

Bob

+1
I have just received a response from PGM to a problem going back to at least 2004. Using a DS al coda AND repeats still doesn't work properly. The sign is correct, the exit and entry marks to the coda are fine, but the DS al coda is lost under the repeat mark.

This is PGMs reply. It just confirms the problem.
"The DS al coda sign is there, it's just buried in the fakesheet of the 3x repeat - which is a limitation of the current programming. This means if you have the fakesheet enabled in either the chord sheet or the Leadsheet - you won't see your DS al coda."
Typically, PGM say "we have reported it to the developers as a feature to possibly redesign in the future"

Their excuse - "Repeats, codas, and endings have always been a difficult feature to program in Band-in-a-Box due to the algorithms used to generate the RealTracks " What has this to do with RealTracks? In fact, I think the problem predates RealTracks.

Peter even responded to one of my emails "Thanks for reporting it. We will look at that for sure."

For many of us, Notation is important, perhaps even more so than thousands of RealTracks and styles. Yet it still print control is really poor. Forum members have complained about the GUI being dated; Printing notation is archaic.

I completely agree.

However this is a common problem when software tries to be all inclusive and that is something has to give. In PGMusic's case it is notation. Notation is not a high priority for PGMusic period.

BUT if a music program includes notation it should be done right and not half @ssed. If would be better not to include notation and depend on other software like the free Musescore then to include a broken version of notation.

I hold this opinion on a lot of software, i.e. quit trying to be all inclusive and concentrate on your specialty. YMMV

+1 here.
Make it simpler.
Make it work.

+1 here.
Make it simpler.
Make it work.

Jazzmammal:
Don't suppose it would help to also post this on the WishList???

Good luck!
LLOYD S

The thing that really frosts me is this has been an advertised feature for as long as I've used the program. Afaik, there has been only a few small additions over that time but nothing structural. They apparently created it as it is now and just left it. They must have thought that all anybody needed or wanted was basic simple charts like Old Folks At Home.

What gets me even more is back then Biab was heavily jazz oriented and jazz charts are not Old Folks At Home. Didn't the developers actually look at Real Book jazz charts? The Help file about that implies they did because it says you can create repeats, endings, codas and all that. Well look at the chart for something like Night in Tunisia and make the notation/print function recreate it. Not that stupid Old Folks At Home.

Biab is trying to modernize, attract new users, create newer, hipper Real Styles backed up by all these great new Real Tracks by new young players like the guys from Snarky Puppy. Those kids are skilled, schooled musicians. Think they know how to create good charts?

Ditch old crap like Old Folks At Home to be used as an example. Worried about copyright? A great feature of Biab is it has the ability to create brand new songs with melodies from scratch. So take this opportunity to both create a complex new song and show the chart to go with it.

Why do I have to be Captain Obvious about stuff like this? Ha, it just hit me, the way I've been writing in this thread I'm being a Snarky Puppy too. Whatever it takes.

Bob

All together now!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSbvmHPq-5g

I'm sure I've seen that exact same line before...

Hi Bob, I definitely agree with your list. My main use of BiaB is to write small jazz band arrangements and print Lead Sheets (normal definition) for the whole band.

Plus, using the one BiaB file, try printing out the lead sheets in Bass Clef for a trombonist (I'm one!) and there are even more problems. Bar-Based Section Letters for instance.

So close, yet so far. From one who uses BiaB just about every day - sometimes for many hours. Some of those hours are used up adding ink notes to the otherwise great print outs. My band members absolutely love the BiaB lead sheets! And those that have BiaB themselves are able to hear the arrangements and play-along with those great rhythm sections in their own practice room. So please marketing and programmers, remember when you are making changes for the solo strummers to use live, that we traditional users still want to use the program in the same way. We would also like some improvements to the program for our usage.

Blackface? Lovely, just effin lovely. I see you're in Ireland, you probably don't know the trouble the governor of Virginia is in right now over him doing some blackface skits when he was in med school.

Yeah, a great tune to use as an example of Biab's print function.

Bob

As for posting this in the Wishlist, been there, done that. Many times.

Pipeline didn't keep his push for 64 bit and a VST in the Wishlist did he? I learned that lesson from him. I've been too polite, too apologetic thinking PGM knows what they're doing, if somethings been in the Wishlist for over ten years it probably means it truly cannot be done, etc, etc. Pipeline blew that thinking out of the water and good for him. The squeaky wheel does get the grease.

I'm going to push and keeping pushing this. And I don't want everybody to simply agree, I think my suggestions are fairly good but others could easily have better ones and I would like this thread to be the place to put them. Graham has a great one about non concert instruments.

Bob

+10.000 for simplifying and optimizing all those distributed print options!

Hmmm, if there's only seven people on this forum including me who care about this issue, maybe this is the reason nothing has been done for 20 years? I guess most users are not musically adept enough to understand or care about notation and writing charts.

C'mon people, start posting comments, suggestions, whatever or this push will die on the vine.

Bob

Bob,

It would be really great if PG Music stepped in with a comment of some sort. The wishlist is laden with requests for both bug fixes and improvements but we are of course not able to deliver those requests.

I agree that the suggested improvements / fixes would be extremely beneficial, but PGM ultimately decides.

PGM?

I don't like Stephen Foster: also one of those so called 'composers' who actually stole a lot of existing un-registered trad and other material and claimed it to be his work and got away with it. BTW this video is sort of tragi-comedy, also makes me think of a kind of Andre Rieu type Freak show LoL.

Because I am more than musically adept and I care about notation, I use other products. I do appreciate the effort PG Music has made to support importing and exporting Music XML.

And I agree with Mario that I wish music programs would stick with what they know best and not try to be all things to all users. For many years we have asked for either improvements to notation, or a solid integration with other dedicated notation programs. Since notation is advertised as a feature, it seems unlikely BIAB would remove it, but at least they have made efforts to integrate with other programs better.

I agree. Using BIAB as a notation software would save me hours of work, believe me, but I completely gave up on that many years ago. It's a shame, but it just can't be used for that.

I use BIAB for simple leadsheets; melody plus chords .... For serious printing however built into a DAW i'd use Cubase Pro.

PS Still have my spare license for sale; Retail Cubase pro v10.0.15, latest, with the dongle 425 USD, shipping insured 20 extra. You can download the 30days trial fom Steinberg to get started, includes Halion Sonic 3SE and Groove Agent 5SE. https://new.steinberg.net/cubase/compare-editions/

This may be the problem with PG not having a sense of urgency about this. People who are at a higher level musically are already using dedicated software while the average Biab user doesn't care about it. If the average user really cared this issue would all over the forums on a regular basis. People like me and some others are in the middle.

It is an advertised function and it should at least work as advertised. Of course define the word work. The 1st, 2nd endings. the DS and Coda sign do work they just look like crap and are unusable to try to read at a gig. That means it really doesn't work if it's intended use is actually useless. That and the confusion between Print Options, Leadsheet Options and Notation Options as far as printing is concerned.

I really don't think this is too much to ask for.

Bob

I am not even sure PG Music even understand the problem and what that can mean to the users

When they say "The DS al coda sign is there, it's just buried in the fakesheet of the 3x repeat" suggests to me that they don't see it as a problem.

This problem has been around since the fakesheet mode was introduced in 2004 (I think). They can build a new 64 bit application, develop amazing realtracks, write a brand new VST DAW plugin, but
suggest Repeats, codas, and endings are difficult feature to program in Band-in-a-Box. Come on - own the problem and get it fixed. No more excuses This is a bug in a function that doesn't work well anyway.

Keep pushing JazzMammal...I completely agree. Its a function that I use many times and have been frustrated many times. It's a feature that don't work!

Jeff

Thanks, and I'm disappointed that a staff member hasn't jumped in here. Maybe it does work better and we just haven't figured it out yet but I doubt it. If that's true then it's even more incentive for them to clean up those windows and make the instructions clear.

For anyone interested here's the workaround I use for charts with endings and codas. Look at a standard realbook chart that has that stuff. In your mind remove the repeat signs, DS, and coda signs. You're left with just staves and chords. That's what I load into Biab, print it and then handwrite all that stuff on the page then copy that for band members. It sucks to have to do that because now the song doesn't play properly, it's not all done in the computer and I can't use the print to PDF function and email it out or email the songfile to anyone with Biab.

Bob

It would be easy to indicate somewhere that Leadsheet options are for the Leadsheet window and not for printing. I disagree with your opinion that Notation Options should not carry through to printing. Let's say you set your clef split, chord font, etc. in the Notation options. When you go to print out your song, do you want to again set all these options? That would be very confusing and alot of work.

Perhaps we could rename the "Notation Window Options" dialog to "Notation Options", and rename the "Lead Sheet Options" dialog to "Lead Sheet Window Options". This would make it more clear that the Notation options are global notation settings. Also, maybe there are some settings in the Notation Options that ONLY apply to the on-screen display specifically in the notation window (?) and we could have a separate section in the dialog for those.



This is the overall font point size, which is relevant for printing, and fonts are measured in points. If you have visited the Notation Options and have made your chords 200% of the default (twice as large) and the lyrics font 50% as large, you can still adjust the overall print font size, and the proportions will be retained.



We could add a button to the Print Options to open the Notation Options

Regardless, I certainly agree that more intuitive dialogs are desirable. I do think there needs to be three separate options dialogs in some form though. What settings do you think should be moved?

Thanks Andrew for stepping in and getting involved with solutions. This is REALLY appreciated!

I completely agree +1

Thanks Andrew this is great. I'm away from home writing on a tablet and can't do the quote and reply routine.

Re notation options. I still think print should only be in a print options window for simplicity. So yes, maybe have a checkbox there asking "import notation options for printing"?

Re fonts. Few especially here, have an understanding of all that imho. You change the percentages and view it in print preview. To me that should be it, you like it print it. If you really think having a font point thing is important then put a balloon popup explaining it.

Any possibility of fixing the 1st 2nd endings, repeats, codas etc spacing issue?

Bob

Generally i think a lot of the menus and submenus in BIAB could use some kind of intuitivity related & structural overhaul ... sometimes i find a really useful thing implied, but under some hidden 'floormat'. Sometimes been there for years even, just never discovered it. Lately been messing with stylemaker and again the soloist, which's functions i find very confusing and hard to get useful results with. Good for the free jazzers however?

I've been gone for a week and no new posts? We're not going to get a lot of action this way.

Bob

uhh ...

Yeah, haha. That signs been up for 15 years...

Bob