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#532038 - 04/08/19 10:31 AM [RealBand] RealBand 2016 save as volume issues (solved with Volume nodes)
Registered: 07/01/12
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bowlesj Offline
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Hi,

I do not do a lot of mixing with RealBand but I just noticed that it is saving files at volume levels different than the volume levels set by the Nodes. It also does it different from save to save (one save has track one volume correct and another save has track 1 volume incorrect). So I am thinking maybe the only solution is to play back on one computer with RealBand using mike-out and record on a different computer using mike in. That certainly would solve it with very little quality drop.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
John




Edited by bowlesj (04/13/19 06:57 PM)
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#532076 - 04/08/19 03:59 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 05/30/00
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rharv Offline
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Does this happen on the same system, or if you save it on one system and Open it on another?
If the latter, do they have the same versions of RB?

I haven't noticed this yet ..
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#532081 - 04/08/19 04:37 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: rharv]
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bowlesj Offline
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Hi Rharv, Thanks for responding. I will give a bit more detail as to exactly what I am doing

I record the jam session with a 16 track mixing board and feed it to a an external separate power supply USB drive. Later at home I connect that USB drive to my main desktop computer. I delete most of the tracks that I know are not being used and bring in the tracks I think might be used. While viewing the tracks in RealBband I take note of any tracks that are obviously blank and I remove them. I set the best mix I can with faders then if that is not good enough I use the nodes to adjust the mix. This works great in RealBand. I then save it as a .wav file back to the same USB drive but in a different directory. So far I only really noticed the problem with one song so I can't really say it is happening on all songs. I do know RealBand was aborting a fair bit. I tried it with a WMA file and got the same thing. I thought it might be my error so I found the minutes/seconds spot on the recording and compared them back and forth and they were definitely different. So for now i send it out to another computer from RealBand and I have the exact same mix. It takes longer of course.

John
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#532084 - 04/08/19 05:06 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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bowlesj Offline
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It might be because RealBand had been aborting and eventually came up with the reset popups. I think maybe I bypassed the one that asked for the output info. It just gave me those popups again so I chose "Microsoft GS wave table synth". Maybe that explains it and maybe it will fix the issue. I did 8 songs before it showed the problem on the 9th song (but again I might have just not noticed it). I have 3 more songs to mix down. While doing these 3 songs I will do some experimenting with extreme volume adjustments to see if I can get it to do it again (Hopefully not). I will report back with the results.



Edited by bowlesj (04/08/19 05:12 PM)
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#532087 - 04/08/19 05:28 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 05/30/00
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rharv Offline
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One thing in RB that I've learned to watch for is the slider that is located in the mixer panel between the tracks and the AUX/Subgroups section. I think it is labeled 'ALL'.
If this changes it definitely affects the final volume.

The Default synth changing (as you mentioned) would also affect volume.
Selecting 'MS GS wave table synth' (instead of Forte) could affect the final output just as well, as settings inside the synth itself could be different.
Just a couple thoughts.
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#532096 - 04/08/19 05:45 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: rharv]
Registered: 07/01/12
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bowlesj Offline
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The master fader on the mixer is set to full now. I never use this window. Maybe I should :-)

I don't have a Forte. The other option is Midi Mapper I think. Or maybe it is Microsoft mapper. I don't see that screen very often. I think I see it if I do a factory reset.

I may be through the other 3 songs tonight. For sure tomorrow. Hoping my tests have a happy result :-)

I should try putting some reverb on my guitar. Last time I did that RealBand aborted so I have avoided it.
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#532113 - 04/08/19 07:53 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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bowlesj Offline
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I just did the extreme node adjustment test. It is clearly an issue. When I came out of my solo and went to rhythm I took the guitar volume to zero and took the piano up a lot. Next I saved as .wav. The result was the guitar track went to zero volume for the whole recording and the piano track when up for the whole recording. I went back to check the RealBand playback against this and it was doing exactly what I wanted.

My suggestion is for others to give this extreme test a try and see if it can be isolated to just my system.

As before to get this to-do finished I sent the mix out to another computer. Unfortunately it is not as loud and of course more work. I guess I will see if I can use line out rather than headsets out to get it louder.
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#532170 - 04/09/19 08:57 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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bowlesj Offline
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I just applied the version 10 update and could not resist a quick test. The problem still exists. I just added a picture to be sure the problem is clear. As the picture shows I used the node adjustment to bring the track 2 volume down to zero. It works as it should in RealBand but the .wave save-as file still plays it at full volume. I will email support this link.

I tried digitizing it but I get the same result.


Attachments
RB_Picture.png (14 downloads)



Edited by bowlesj (04/09/19 09:10 AM)
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#532180 - 04/09/19 09:48 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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jford Offline
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Something else to try (although the menus may have changed a little since 2016). Instead of "Save as wav", try using the Render menu instead and select "Merge Audio to Stereo Wave File" and see if that preserves your node settings. Mute any tracks you don't want included in the render. It may be called something similar, but that's what I generally do.
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#532184 - 04/09/19 10:26 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: jford]
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bowlesj Offline
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That didn't work. I also tried export from that render drop down and that didn't work.

To be honest it seems very hard to believe that this bug even exists. As a result I was wondering if there is a way to re-direct the sound output of all RealBand tracks to be rerecorded on a parallel track then once done it would be the only track exported/saved. If this is possible it would make sense to have a popup help on the first use of the nodes to make users aware of this feature.


Edited by bowlesj (04/09/19 10:34 AM)
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#532221 - 04/09/19 03:18 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 05/30/00
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rharv Offline
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Seems weird nobody else would have noticed this.
I wonder if some other setting is affecting your results on your system.

Can you post a pic of your Options-Prefs-MIDI .. MIDI Output pop up?
Maybe you have some behavior disabled or enabled for MIDI (the Nodes actually use MIDI for the events).

As John mentioned, usually using the 'Render Audio and DXi tracks to stereo file' works exactly as expected (just like the playback in RB).
Using the Save As method, I would actually expect these results, but not using the Render method.

May want to double check that.
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#532230 - 04/09/19 04:13 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: rharv]
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bowlesj Offline
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Hi Rharv,

I have used these nodes after two prior jam sessions. I didn't notice it because I never bothered to listen to the .wav or mp3 conversion file. I just assumed it would be fine. Now that I am doing this regularly (but only once a month and likely to forget) (to speed things up) I have created a checklist with things to remember to do. One of the new entries is to check the final file before I upload it to sound cloud for the club members to listen to. It just so happened that some of the adjustments were large enough that I noticed it (I didn't notice it until the 9th song). Even then I still had to go back and triple check to make sure I was not imagining it. I wasn't...lol. No doubt about that now :-)

I think these are the images you requested. All the settings should be the standard install settings because twice the program asked me if I want to reset the settings when I started it up. I don't do anything fancy so I said yes.

John




Attachments
New Bitmap Image.png

New Bitmap Image (2).png




Edited by bowlesj (04/09/19 04:19 PM)
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#532236 - 04/09/19 04:41 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 05/30/00
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rharv Offline
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Yep, those settings look consistent with normal to me.

I'm puzzled confused
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#532247 - 04/09/19 05:44 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: rharv]
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bowlesj Offline
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It is very easy to test. The first step is to not assume it is working. Open RealBand, click record, record 5 bars of anything on a single track. Loud grunts work best :-) Click the far left down arrow. Adjust the green node line part way through to take volume to zero and then back up again. Save as .wav. Listen back to see if it dropped the volume. If needed use the seconds to compare the RealBand playback against the .wav. If nodes are new to you watch the video below. Great feature. A must learn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5kKx5ThpSY

I really would like to find out if it is or is not working from others and what version you are using. I am sure PGmusic would also like to know.


Edited by bowlesj (04/09/19 05:46 PM)
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#532274 - 04/10/19 04:36 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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bowlesj Offline
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I forgot something in that last post. The info that RealBand users and PGmusic submit regarding how RealBand can save Anode adjustment levels to .wav files will determine if I stick with RealBand 2016, upgrade or replace it with one of several other products that some of my jam group members have been using since long before I formed the group.

I also have trouble saving directly to mp3 but I figure I need some sort of other product installed for that which PGmusic does not supply with the purchase. Currently I use a free .wav conversion tool.


Edited by bowlesj (04/10/19 04:43 AM)
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#532356 - 04/10/19 03:46 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 19669
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
rharv Offline
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Yes - "It is very easy to test".
Though I may have tested differently.
Instead of opening the resulting file in another player I simply imported all of the test tracks back into RB itself (the original track, the result of saving as Wav, and the result of using Render to save .. Using File-Import).
For the record, I 'Opened' the Seq file with the track that had Nodes, then imported the other two test tracks into the project and used SOLO to compare.

I made sure each track slider was the same (full volume) to ensure equality withinin the app itself.

Every track behaved as expected, volume changed when Nodes did and no track was perceptibly louder than another.

All 3 resulting tracks were played in the same player in order to simply click between tracks for instant comparison as the track(s). I used RB so I could also include the Node behavior of the original track in the test.

No difference in perceived or visible volume.
If it helps it was done in RB 2019-3.

If you were switching back/forth between 2 different players/instances that may be where the problem lies.


Edited by rharv (04/10/19 04:07 PM)
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#532363 - 04/10/19 04:16 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: rharv]
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bowlesj Offline
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Support suggested I try a factory reset. I kind of think it has already been done with those popups mentioned above but I will give it a go anyway. I would have done it an hour ago but I got distracted by emailed related to my "jazz jam club". After supper I will give it a try and read your post Rharv (mind is clogged at the moment).

I can think of a better way to test than using grunts...lol. Just record on a track and say "normal volume a few times then say zero volume a few times then say normal volume again a few times". Go back and adjust the nodes to reflect what you said. Save it as .wav and play it back. If you hear the zero volume part you have my problem. So much better than grunting...lol. Hopefully I have the solution tonight with the reset. I was looking at other software. A lot of work :-( for all I need. Better if RealBand works :-)


Edited by bowlesj (04/10/19 04:21 PM)
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#532382 - 04/10/19 05:53 PM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
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bowlesj Offline
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I tried the factory reset (see attached pictures). No Luck.
I also show an image of my test recording with the node adjustments (the simple test mentioned above). The way I was testing before by playing guitar was far too hard. Too much time, to hard to tell if the volume had changed, etc. So I developed a much better way with a picture and instructions. Soooooooooo much better.

Stating the volume with my voice makes the test extremely easy and guaranteed to let you know what you need to know.
I tried uploading the .seq file I used for testing but it would not allow the upload.

I tried running the test on my notebook. It gave me an activation message. Because I was thinking I don't want to waste an activation I was going to back off on doing the test there but later I was thinking I am considering another software because of this so I may as well go ahead anyway (If I am using another software I don't care if I have 1,000 activations). It failed on that machine as well. All 3 of my machines use Windows-7. I took Win-10 off the notebook. I Have no need to run RealBand on the notebook (only BIAB need run there).

I will defend my test. The test itself is fine because that .wav file is what I need to use to convert to mp3 and that mp3 is what I have to send to my members (some do not have BIAB or RealBand). They would likely want to hear the volume adjustments. Clearly my moving the volume to zero in the middle of the test should not be heard on the .wav file. Something is not correct. It may be my Win-7. Who knows?

I have a jam coming up and tax to do. Unfortunately I have no more time to work on this at all until after April 28th when the jam is scheduled. I need to clear it form my mind completely. When it comes time to mix that jam I will probably just send it through to the other computer as a work around then decided what to do when I have more time. I love to work and I love learning. I may direct that love toward a different product. Not the end of the world. What I hate is wasting time when there is a shortage of time. If this can be resolved to save time that would be better. I really don't need more than RealBand.




Attachments
RealBandFactoryReset.png

TestImage.png




Edited by bowlesj (04/14/19 03:58 PM)
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#532441 - 04/11/19 07:56 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: bowlesj]
Registered: 05/13/03
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silvertones Offline
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Works perfectly in 2019. Has always worked perfectly. I rendered the file and opened it in VLC media player and it was perfect.
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#532454 - 04/11/19 09:02 AM [RealBand] Re: RealBand 2016 save as volume issues [Re: silvertones]
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bowlesj Offline
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Thanks Silvertones. So basically it should be working on my Win-7 machine is what I take from your saying it has always worked.

I am running Windows-7 with Service Pack 1 on all three of my computers.Years back I had to upgrade Win-XP to a new service pack level because of one software that required it. That is the only time I was forced to go up and back then you could do it with CD updates so it was fine. I just dumped the system requirements below. It should not be an issue according to that. Maybe PG music can answer the question if I need to go up to a higher service pack in order for these node volume adjustments to transfer over to the .wav files. I would prefer a confirmed message rather than "do it just in case" because the the online service pack updates take forever. Both of my computer service people agree. They say "they take a very long time now". They should know since they do a lot of them and they have not reason to lie. If I run it I need to run it starting Friday at 4 pm so it is done by Monday (hopefully). If I have to do this upgrade I might actually look for a RealBand replacement which has a trial I can test with my current setup.

I really should not be looking at this thread any more until April 29th after the next jam I am running. I have to get my tax done and I Need to brush up on 18 songs for the coming jam as I am the melody person of last resort.

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Edited by bowlesj (04/11/19 09:20 AM)
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